Law of sin and death?

LoveofTruth

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The death is eternal death.


The law of sin and death is not the law of Moses.



JLB
And still we read about the law as it is applied to the old man

2 Corinthians 3:6. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.”

And

Romans 7:10. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.”
 
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Shimshon

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And still we read about the law as it is applied to the old man
And

Romans 7:10. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.”
context is everything, especially when you cherry pick a verse out of the very Tree it was established in.

7 Therefore, what are we to say? That the Torah is sinful? Heaven forbid!

Can you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart what Shaul wrote here? Or will you continue to take his words out of context to proclaim the opposite?

Rather, the function of the Torah was that without it, I would not have known what sin is. For example, I would not have become conscious of what greed is if the Torah had not said, “Thou shalt not covet.”8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of evil desires — for apart from Torah, sin is dead. 9 I was once alive outside the framework of Torah. But when the commandment really encountered me, sin sprang to life,

10 and I died. The commandment that was intended to bring me life was found to be bringing me death!

11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me; and through the commandment, sin killed me. 12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good.​

Shaul speaks positively about the Torah the entire chapter. Interesting how you cut off Shaul's statement to paint your false premise over it. What is communicated is that it is sin working through the Holy commandments that is the issue. And that was where the old nature is identified. Between sin and the Torah that reveals our sins.

13 Then did something good become for me the source of death? Heaven forbid! Rather, it was sin working death in me through something good, so that sin might be clearly exposed as sin, so that sin through the commandment might come to be experienced as sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit;

So what is the old nature connected to, sin or the Torah? According to Shaul? Are you not teaching others to throw out the law as a dead husband so we can marry another who does away with the Torah, in Christ? As if the Jewish Messiah comes to do away with everything that is Jewish.

For once (in awhile)I agree with Dave, you misapplied much in your exegesis of Romans. You're obviously not aware who the book is written to and why?

I see you placing yourself within the camp that Shaul is countering not those he is exhorting. After Rome expelled all the Jews the only ones left were non-Jews, with no Torah scrolls. And after they were allowed back they persecuted the Jews as second class citizens. When they kicked the Jews out the Torah scrolls went with us, and they started flying blind, and made things up the best they could in a culture that despised Judaism. By the time we returned it was too late, anti semitism had woven into the fabric of the believers. HENCE, Shaul's purpose of writing the Romans.

They were the only ones who struggled with this, while others like the Galatians went the completely opposite direction.


Till Marcion.... who I imagine you would agree with greatly.
 
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pinacled

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The ground (adamah) is a Jew?
" Blessed are the meek...."

With good soil the inward man receives Blessings from above as flesh offerred the sons and daughters reminds me of Life and purity of wisdom from above.

I once shared something with sister of mine some time back.

'Have you considered the widow and orphan eliyahu visited were of the tribe of yhdh'?


Garments woven in loving kindness, gifted generation after generation.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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" Blessed are the meek...."

With good soil the inward man receives Blessings from above as flesh oferred the sons and daughters reminds me of Life and purity of wisdom from above.

I once shared something with sister of mine some time back.

'Have you considered the widow and orphan eliyahu visited were of the tribe of yhdh'?


Garments woven in loving kindness, gifted generation after generation.

All well and good, but why did you say "adamah" was a Jew? Did you mean Adam? HaShem formed Adam from adamah...
 
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LoveofTruth

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context is everything, especially when you cherry pick a verse out of the very Tree it was established in.

7 Therefore, what are we to say? That the Torah is sinful? Heaven forbid!

Can you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart what Shaul wrote here? Or will you continue to take his words out of context to proclaim the opposite?

Rather, the function of the Torah was that without it, I would not have known what sin is. For example, I would not have become conscious of what greed is if the Torah had not said, “Thou shalt not covet.”8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of evil desires — for apart from Torah, sin is dead. 9 I was once alive outside the framework of Torah. But when the commandment really encountered me, sin sprang to life,

10 and I died. The commandment that was intended to bring me life was found to be bringing me death!

11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me; and through the commandment, sin killed me. 12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good.​

Shaul speaks positively about the Torah the entire chapter. Interesting how you cut off Shaul's statement to paint your false premise over it. What is communicated is that it is sin working through the Holy commandments that is the issue. And that was where the old nature is identified. Between sin and the Torah that reveals our sins.

13 Then did something good become for me the source of death? Heaven forbid! Rather, it was sin working death in me through something good, so that sin might be clearly exposed as sin, so that sin through the commandment might come to be experienced as sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit;

So what is the old nature connected to, sin or the Torah? According to Shaul? Are you not teaching others to throw out the law as a dead husband so we can marry another who does away with the Torah, in Christ? As if the Jewish Messiah comes to do away with everything that is Jewish.

For once (in awhile)I agree with Dave, you misapplied much in your exegesis of Romans. You're obviously not aware who the book is written to and why?

I see you placing yourself within the camp that Shaul is countering not those he is exhorting. After Rome expelled all the Jews the only ones left were non-Jews, with no Torah scrolls. And after they were allowed back they persecuted the Jews as second class citizens. When they kicked the Jews out the Torah scrolls went with us, and they started flying blind, and made things up the best they could in a culture that despised Judaism. By the time we returned it was too late, anti semitism had woven into the fabric of the believers. HENCE, Shaul's purpose of writing the Romans.

They were the only ones who struggled with this, while others like the Galatians went the completely opposite direction.


Till Marcion.... who I imagine you would agree with greatly.
Stick with the KJV your weird translation confuses the issues

But in Roman 7 and 2 Cor 3:6-to the end shows clearly that we cannot be married to the law and Christ at the same time the law of Moses and the entire old covenant is done away, abolished and it was fading away as the writer wrote in Hebrews 8:13 (KJV)

But as Paul warned in 2 Cor 3 even when the Old Testament is read the veil is in the heart and they cannot are who seek to be ministers of the law or Ten Commandments in stone. The law made nothing perfect.

Paul says clearly

Romans 7:4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God...6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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context is everything, especially when you cherry pick a verse out of the very Tree it was established in.

7 Therefore, what are we to say? That the Torah is sinful? Heaven forbid!

Can you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart what Shaul wrote here? Or will you continue to take his words out of context to proclaim the opposite?

Rather, the function of the Torah was that without it, I would not have known what sin is. For example, I would not have become conscious of what greed is if the Torah had not said, “Thou shalt not covet.”8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of evil desires — for apart from Torah, sin is dead. 9 I was once alive outside the framework of Torah. But when the commandment really encountered me, sin sprang to life,

10 and I died. The commandment that was intended to bring me life was found to be bringing me death!

11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me; and through the commandment, sin killed me. 12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good.​

Shaul speaks positively about the Torah the entire chapter. Interesting how you cut off Shaul's statement to paint your false premise over it. What is communicated is that it is sin working through the Holy commandments that is the issue. And that was where the old nature is identified. Between sin and the Torah that reveals our sins.

13 Then did something good become for me the source of death? Heaven forbid! Rather, it was sin working death in me through something good, so that sin might be clearly exposed as sin, so that sin through the commandment might come to be experienced as sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit;

So what is the old nature connected to, sin or the Torah? According to Shaul? Are you not teaching others to throw out the law as a dead husband so we can marry another who does away with the Torah, in Christ? As if the Jewish Messiah comes to do away with everything that is Jewish.

For once (in awhile)I agree with Dave, you misapplied much in your exegesis of Romans. You're obviously not aware who the book is written to and why?

I see you placing yourself within the camp that Shaul is countering not those he is exhorting. After Rome expelled all the Jews the only ones left were non-Jews, with no Torah scrolls. And after they were allowed back they persecuted the Jews as second class citizens. When they kicked the Jews out the Torah scrolls went with us, and they started flying blind, and made things up the best they could in a culture that despised Judaism. By the time we returned it was too late, anti semitism had woven into the fabric of the believers. HENCE, Shaul's purpose of writing the Romans.

They were the only ones who struggled with this, while others like the Galatians went the completely opposite direction.


Till Marcion.... who I imagine you would agree with greatly.
Consider seriously these verses

Galatians 2:18. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.”

That is what the law does and yet some think they are alive through the law of Moses.

We read many expression in scripture such as

Free from the law, delivered from the law, dead to the law, the end of the law, the law is not made for a righteous man. Are you claiming to be a righteous man? If so the law is not made for you

1 Timothy 1:9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,”
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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1 Timothy 1:9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,”

is there a reason the first part of this is always conveniently left out???

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully, understanding this....
 
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LoveofTruth

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is there a reason the first part of this is always conveniently left out???

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully, understanding this....
You also left out the verses before that conveniently

Consider this warning by Paul to all who walk similarly

1 Timothy 1:5. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:6. From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;7. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You also left out the verses before that conveniently

Consider this warning by Paul to all who walk similarly

1 Timothy 1:5. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:6. From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;7. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

But again, that does nothing to prove your point. It actually proves mine. Do YOU understand what it means?
 
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Shimshon

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Stick with the KJV your weird translation confuses the issues
Seriously? So you believe in supersessionism. You are proving my point. The seeds of Marcion made their way into most of the church fathers, and one of their fruits was the KJV, and it is steeped in replacement theology. Of course you would prefer to read this version. Because it was created with replacement theology burned into their minds. And this is what you seem to believe in too.

Here is an example:

In the KJV they used to put chapter summary headings. I know this helps me greatly when searching through books. However, look at the way the KJV confuses the issue of who the blessings of Israel are written to.

KJV_Isaiah 45.jpg


Isaiah 45 "God calleth Cyrus for his Church's sake". Yet, this prophecy was given 150 yrs before Cyrus came to power or was even born.

Here is the text in a more correct version.

Isaiah 44
28 while saying of Cyrus, “He is My shepherd,
and he shall fulfill all My purpose”
while saying to Jerusalem, “You will be built”
and to the Temple, “Your foundation will be laid.”

Isaiah 45
1 Thus says Adonai to His anointed, Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him,
to loose the belts of kings,
to open doors before him
so that gates may not be shut.

4 For the sake of Jacob My servant,
and Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by name,
I have given you a title of honor,
though you have not known Me.

13 “I stirred Cyrus up in righteousness
and I will level all his roads.
He will build My city
and set My exiles free,
with no price or bribe,”
says Adonai-Tzva’ot.
150 yrs after the exile into Babylon Cyrus the Great granted Nehemiah permission to go back into the city and rebuild the city itself. Our God forever merciful to Israel, his chosen. Jacob his beloved.

This prophecy is written long before the church, before the new testament. The prophet is speaking of the Jewish people, Israel. This was long before the church you even recognize.

Ephesians states God is taking in both Jews and gentiles into one new man. Israel is not the church because many Jews are not believers. And the church is not Israel because many of the church are not of Jewish decent.

In the KJV anywhere the curses are mentioned it boldly identifies Israel and the Jews. Yet when God speaks of the blessings he has in store for Israel the KJV inserts the church to receive them. How anti semetic no? Yet you want to point to it as the more clear authority?

You've presented nothing here but a red herring. And you completely misrepresent the one you quote, and the one you claim to believe in.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You also left out the verses before that conveniently

Consider this warning by Paul to all who walk similarly

1 Timothy 1:5. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:6. From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;7. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Do you believe that Yeshua taught against the law?
 
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Shimshon

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But as Paul warned in 2 Cor 4 even when the Old Testament is read the veil is in the heart and they cannot are who seek to be ministers of the law or Ten Commandments in stone. The law made nothing perfect.

Paul says clearly
Would you care to address the real issue and state to this Messianic Judaism group just what you believe happens to a Jew in relation to the Torah when they receive the Jewish Messiah's words into their heart? Would you care to learn the relationship between the Jews and the Torah, or would you simply like to continue to proclaim a false theology in the name of your Christ? All you are doing here is promoting the satanic division between the church and Israel.

I see you believe you think clearly and believe you understand things. And in one way you do, you hold quite dearly to the church fathers teaching of replacement theology. Try not to think so linearly. And understanding how God can maintain two covenants at once, even when one will transform into something new.

The covenant of circumcision and the land promises, which the Torah is part of, are eternal. You as a non-Jew/Israeli are supposed to be working with God to restore us who are Jewish as defined within God's plan given in the scriptures. The purpose of Yeshua is to not only restore the world but to do so through the restoration of Israel! And you appear to be fighting against this with fervor. The one new man is not made new by the doing away with Jews so creating the church.

Do you really believe the purpose of the Christ (the Holy One of Israel) is to do away with all that defined Israel in the first place? You prove so overwhelmingly to me that you are very ignorant to God's plan of salvation. And in this way I can see why/how God is using your interest to 'fight' against us to your benefit. May God reach you soon.

btw, I think Shaul would be very angry the way you are using his writing's out of context, and against the very ones he, God, and Messiah himself love with all his life.








 
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LoveofTruth

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Would you care to address the real issue and state to this Messianic Judaism group just what you believe happens to a Jew in relation to the Torah when they receive the Jewish Messiah's words into their heart? Would you care to learn the relationship between the Jews and the Torah, or would you simply like to continue to proclaim a false theology in the name of your Christ? All you are doing here is promoting the satanic division between the church and Israel.

I see you believe you think clearly and believe you understand things. And in one way you do, you hold quite dearly to the church fathers teaching of replacement theology. Try not to think so linearly. And understanding how God can maintain two covenants at once, even when one will transform into something new.

The covenant of circumcision and the land promises, which the Torah is part of, are eternal. You as a non-Jew/Israeli are supposed to be working with God to restore us who are Jewish as defined within God's plan given in the scriptures. The purpose of Yeshua is to not only restore the world but to do so through the restoration of Israel! And you appear to be fighting against this with fervor. The one new man is not made new by the doing away with Jews so creating the church.

Do you really believe the purpose of the Christ (the Holy One of Israel) is to do away with all that defined Israel in the first place? You prove so overwhelmingly to me that you are very ignorant to God's plan of salvation. And in this way I can see why/how God is using your interest to 'fight' against us to your benefit. May God reach you soon.

btw, I think Shaul would be very angry the way you are using his writing's out of context, and against the very ones he, God, and Messiah himself love with all his life.








You error about me on wrong assumptions in your post. Clearly you were not led by the Spirit to write that to me. I do not believe in replacement theology and I simply quote Paul’s words about the law of Moses and the old covenant,
Here are some verses to consider, if you have ears to hear,

Hebrews 8:7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second....13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Hebrews 7:12. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

Romans 11:28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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Very good, I see you understand how this is done and how it effects the message. So why do you do this yourself?
I don’t do any harm to myself, I seek to rightly divide the word of truth.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Would you care to address the real issue and state to this Messianic Judaism group just what you believe happens to a Jew in relation to the Torah when they receive the Jewish Messiah's words into their heart? Would you care to learn the relationship between the Jews and the Torah, or would you simply like to continue to proclaim a false theology in the name of your Christ? All you are doing here is promoting the satanic division between the church and Israel.

I see you believe you think clearly and believe you understand things. And in one way you do, you hold quite dearly to the church fathers teaching of replacement theology. Try not to think so linearly. And understanding how God can maintain two covenants at once, even when one will transform into something new.

The covenant of circumcision and the land promises, which the Torah is part of, are eternal. You as a non-Jew/Israeli are supposed to be working with God to restore us who are Jewish as defined within God's plan given in the scriptures. The purpose of Yeshua is to not only restore the world but to do so through the restoration of Israel! And you appear to be fighting against this with fervor. The one new man is not made new by the doing away with Jews so creating the church.

Do you really believe the purpose of the Christ (the Holy One of Israel) is to do away with all that defined Israel in the first place? You prove so overwhelmingly to me that you are very ignorant to God's plan of salvation. And in this way I can see why/how God is using your interest to 'fight' against us to your benefit. May God reach you soon.

btw, I think Shaul would be very angry the way you are using his writing's out of context, and against the very ones he, God, and Messiah himself love with all his life.








Romans 2:25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.26. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?27. And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
 
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Shimshon

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You error about me on wrong assumptions in your post.
Actually no, I'm spot on. Your actions prove your intent. Your words are a window to your heart. And every time you type you put out who you are in words. It is sadly no wonder that you do not recognize the spirit of the words I type.
 
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Shimshon

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Romans 2:25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.26. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?27. And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Parroting the words you do not understand will get you nowhere. Only when you can reflect them from within will you prove you have truly eaten them as food. Faith without works is no faith at all. You quote things you don't understand and do things in complete opposition to the ones you are quoting.
 
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LoveofTruth

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The death is eternal death.


The law of sin and death is not the law of Moses.



JLB
And still we read about the law as it is applied to the old man

2 Corinthians 3:6. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.”

And


Seriously? So you believe in supersessionism. You are proving my point. The seeds of Marcion made their way into most of the church fathers, and one of their fruits was the KJV, and it is steeped in replacement theology. Of course you would prefer to read this version. Because it was created with replacement theology burned into their minds. And this is what you seem to believe in too.

Here is an example:

In the KJV they used to put chapter summary headings. I know this helps me greatly when searching through books. However, look at the way the KJV confuses the issue of who the blessings of Israel are written to.

View attachment 258077

Isaiah 45 "God calleth Cyrus for his Church's sake". Yet, this prophecy was given 150 yrs before Cyrus came to power or was even born.

Here is the text in a more correct version.

Isaiah 44
28 while saying of Cyrus, “He is My shepherd,
and he shall fulfill all My purpose”
while saying to Jerusalem, “You will be built”
and to the Temple, “Your foundation will be laid.”

Isaiah 45
1 Thus says Adonai to His anointed, Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him,
to loose the belts of kings,
to open doors before him
so that gates may not be shut.

4 For the sake of Jacob My servant,
and Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by name,
I have given you a title of honor,
though you have not known Me.

13 “I stirred Cyrus up in righteousness
and I will level all his roads.
He will build My city
and set My exiles free,
with no price or bribe,”
says Adonai-Tzva’ot.
150 yrs after the exile into Babylon Cyrus the Great granted Nehemiah permission to go back into the city and rebuild the city itself. Our God forever merciful to Israel, his chosen. Jacob his beloved.

This prophecy is written long before the church, before the new testament. The prophet is speaking of the Jewish people, Israel. This was long before the church you even recognize.

Ephesians states God is taking in both Jews and gentiles into one new man. Israel is not the church because many Jews are not believers. And the church is not Israel because many of the church are not of Jewish decent.

In the KJV anywhere the curses are mentioned it boldly identifies Israel and the Jews. Yet when God speaks of the blessings he has in store for Israel the KJV inserts the church to receive them. How anti semetic no? Yet you want to point to it as the more clear authority?

You've presented nothing here but a red herring. And you completely misrepresent the one you quote, and the one you claim to believe in.
I don’t believe in replacement theology

And I’m not going to rebuke you in your attack on THE bible (KJV) in this forum. It’s about a 45 hour talk. Many other can rebuke you in this.
 
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