Kylie's Pool Challenge, Mark II

[BobRyan]

A divinely inspired document may contain fulfilled prophecy,

Indeed it may.

And isn't that prophecy-fulfilled element claimed as one of the "proofs" -- in the document itself?

John 13:19
From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

This is "Christianity 101" for believers.

And as I pointed out in a previous post - this is also proving effective in getting the attention of unbelievers.

Yesterday at 9:52 PM #149

There again, it's not the Bible telling us this

If you have a more direct source... please share it with us.

Meanwhile the objective fact presented in favor of the inspired document -- remains.

, it's the Bible reporting what John said Jesus said.

John reported it himself - 1 John 1:1-5 -- I don't see how this is helping you.

Does the Bible have to be divinely inspired to tell us what John said Jesus said?

John reported it himself - 1 John 1:1-5 -- I don't see how this is helping you.


Mark 7
“Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Christ is not talking to someone who was alive at the time Moses was writing - He is speaking to those who read the Bible. And THAT is being called
"Word of God" = "Commandment of God" = "Moses Said" as a direct quote of Exodus 20.

Christ argues the very point of truth - you are most opposed to.

2 Peter 1
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

by contrast we have this ---

There again, it's not the Bible telling us this, it's the Bible reporting what John said Jesus said. .

Peter argues for the very point of truth - you are most opposed to

 

[Hammster]

There comes a time, Hammster, when you just have to say: The Bible says it, that settles it.

That’s pretty much been my argument throughout. They are acting as if we have to prove it to be true. We are never called to do that. We are called to proclaim the gospel and to give a defense of why we have hope.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Bible is written by the prophets -- 2 Peter 1:19-21 that "spoke from God" - which as Christ said - in Mark 7:6-13 -- makes the Bible "the Word of God".

So then we believe the Bible --

Indeed.

Note here where Jesus quotes from both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2:

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

-- Christians are funny that way.

Wez p'kyoolyer people!

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

[SelfSim]

That’s pretty much been my argument throughout. They are acting as if we have to prove it to be true. We are never called to do that. We are called to proclaim the gospel and to give a defense of why we have hope.

You live in the real world though .. you're not in heaven yet.
You cannot reject your humanity when you accept that you are human.
That calls upon you to acknowledge the differences amongst us and explain your actions in real world ways.

 

[Speedwell]

The Bible is written by the prophets -- 2 Peter 1:19-21 t
So complaining about the inspired text is like saying that the prophecy spoken by a prophet is not inspired "because that is just the prophets lips moving"...there is a certain paucity of logic in that sort of parsing.

Where did you come up with that nutty idea? It is the prophets themselves who are inspired directly.

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

But what you claimed is that because the Bible contains accounts of these inspired and fulfilled prophecies it proves the Bible itself to be divinely inspired and literal and inerrant as well.

The Bible may well be all of that, but just the fact that it reports on what "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." does not, in itself, prove it as you claimed.

Do you get it yet? I am not attacking the notion that the Bible is literal, inerrant and divinely inspired as such , but pointing out that your "proof" does not prove it.

Really, you are not doing very well here. You intimated that you were responsible for convincing potential SDA converts to accept divine inspiration and literal inerrancy so they could earn introduction to the Gospel, but you don't seem to be able to answer even the most obvious laymen's questions about it.

 

[Hammster]

You live in the real world though .. you're not in heaven yet.
You cannot reject your humanity when you accept that you are human.
That calls upon you to acknowledge the differences amongst us and explain your actions in real world ways.

Where’s your source?

 

[SelfSim]

You live in the real world though .. you're not in heaven yet.
You cannot reject your humanity when you accept that you are human.
That calls upon you to acknowledge the differences amongst us and explain your actions in real world ways.

Where’s your source?

I evolved and so did you .. that's objectively evidenced .. Believed causality (and 'sources') are speculative until objectively verified.

 

[Hammster]

I evolved and so did you .. that's objectively evidenced .. Believed causality (and 'sources') are speculative until objectively verified.

You said that I must do something (acknowledge the differences amongst us and explain your actions in real world ways). What source of authority states or implies that I must do this?

 

[SelfSim]

You said that I must do something (acknowledge the differences amongst us and explain your actions in real world ways). What source of authority states or implies that I must do this?

Your survival in the real world depends on your doing that. You couldn't be advising me of your own wisdom, right now, using a computer, in this medium, in the English language, if that were not so .. and I've already been provided with the evidence that your own survival depends on your doing that:

Jesus' instruction to His disciples (in Matt 28: 19-20):

"19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen".

 

[Hammster]

Your survival in the real world depends on your doing that. You couldn't be advising me of your own wisdom, right now, using a computer, in this medium, in the English language, if that were not so .. and I've already been provided with the evidence that your own survival depends on your doing that:

Jesus' instruction to His disciples (in Matt 28: 19-20):

"19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen".

I’ll take it from your reply that you don’t have answer.

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed.

Note here where Jesus quotes from both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2:

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wez p'kyoolyer people!

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Good point and Paul also affirms that same command in Eph 6:1-2

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible doesn't make the prophecy. The prophet makes the prophecy. The Bible merely tells us of it.

The Bible is written by the prophets -- 2 Peter 1:19-21 that "spoke from God" - which as Christ said - in Mark 7:6-13 -- makes the Bible "the Word of God".

So then we believe the Bible -- Christians are funny that way.

So complaining about the inspired text is like saying that the prophecy spoken by a prophet is not inspired "because that is just the prophets lips moving"...there is a certain paucity of logic in that sort of parsing.

but for non-Christians there is always the "evidence" of fulfilled Bible prophecy to add to that realm of motivation for accepting real fact.

Where did you come up with that nutty idea? It is the prophets themselves who are inspired directly.

oohhhh I see.... Not their lips as they move not the paper..??

got it

IS there an actual point you would like to make???

 

[BobRyan]

Really, you are not doing very well here. You intimated that you were responsible for convincing potential SDA converts to accept divine inspiration and literal inerrancy so they could earn introduction to the Gospel,

whaaaat?

Are you even reading the posts??

 

[SelfSim]

I’ll take it from your reply that you don’t have answer.

So I am dealing with people who deny their own humanity then?

 

[Speedwell]

The Bible is written by the prophets -- 2 Peter 1:19-21 that "spoke from God" - which as Christ said - in Mark 7:6-13 -- makes the Bible "the Word of God".

So it does. But what about your particular "proof?" Have you decided to give it up?

So then we believe the Bible -- Christians are funny that way.

All Christians believe the Bible to be the authoritative and inspired Word of God. What's funny abut that?

So complaining about the inspired text is like saying that the prophecy spoken by a prophet is not inspired "because that is just the prophets lips moving"...there is a certain paucity of logic in that sort of parsing.

Since you chose to ignore my response to that the first time you posted it I see no point in your repeating it.

but for non-Christians there is always the "evidence" of fulfilled Bible prophecy to add to that realm of motivation for accepting real fact.

OK. And...?

oohhhh I see.... Not their lips as they move not the paper..??

Is that what you believe? That when God inspires men to speak prophesy, He inspires only their lips?

got it

IS there an actual point you would like to make???

No, I'm waiting for an explanation from you. How does the fact of spoken prophesy and fulfillment being reported in the Bible prove the Bible to be literal and inerrant? I won't ask how it proves the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, since we stipulated that and in any case you have evidently gone a different route to prove it.

 

[Hammster]

So I am dealing with people who deny their own humanity then?

I don’t know. What I do know is that you aren’t answering my question.

 

[SelfSim]

I don’t know. What I do know is that you aren’t answering my question.

How would you know that if you don't know whether the people I'm speaking with, (yourself included), deny their humanity, or not?

 

[Hammster]

How would you know that if you don't know whether the people I'm speaking with, (yourself included), deny their humanity, or not?

You still aren’t answering.

 

[SelfSim]

You still aren’t answering.

Post #249 is my evidence for my claim that I did exactly that .. but:

I {Hammster} don't know.

Thus, this sub-conversation is over.
'Have a nice day'.

 

[Hammster]

Post #249 is my evidence for my claim that I did exactly that .. but:

No, you didn’t answer about what authority says that I must do what you say I must do.

So I can see why you want to end the conversation.