Kylie's Pool Challenge, Mark II

[Speedwell]

Well in procreation -- A human begins as a zygote - not viable in the wild.
Suppose the Bible said God created Adam on day 1 of Adam's life as a zygote and left him there in the dirt -- there would be no day-2 for Adam. So instead God created Adam as a fully capable adult...

but then the atheist evolutionist says "oh no wait! That would be God lying ... making it appear that Adam is 25 when in fact he is only 1 day old".

That's not what "atheist evolutionists" say.

 

[Allandavid]

So you should repent and believe the gospel. I was like you, once. So was Paul. Dead in trespasses and sins. God has provided a way out, though, through the death of His Son who took the punishment meant for us. To receive that forgiveness you only need to repent and believe.

Beliefs are not chosen. You can’t decide to believe what is written in the Bible, or any other religious text. This is the basis for the fallacy of Pascal’s Wager, for example.

People become convinced of any proposition, based upon the nature of that proposition and the evidence that accompanies it. I find the supernatural claims that religious texts make to be unconvincing.

 

[Hammster]

Beliefs are not chosen. You can’t decide to believe what is written in the Bible, or any other religious text. This is the basis for the fallacy of Pascal’s Wager, for example.

People become convinced of any proposition, based upon the nature of that proposition and the evidence that accompanies it. I find the supernatural claims that religious texts make to be unconvincing.

That’s because you suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[AV1611VET]

If the account of a prophecy and its fulfillment in the NY Times doesn't prove that the Times is the literal, inerrant and inspired Word of God,

Anyone can make a prophecy and fulfill it.

The real trick is preventing it from happening.

Adam Clarke says it best:

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

Adam Clarke's Commentary: This is one of the most remarkable and most singular prophecies in the Old Testament. It here most circumstantially foretells a fact which took place three hundred and forty years after the prediction; a fact which was attested by the two nations. The Jews, in whose behalf this prophecy was delivered, would guard it most sacredly; and it was the interest of the Israelites, against whom it was levelled, to impugn its authenticity and expose its falsehood, had this been possible. This prediction not only showed the knowledge of God, but his power. He gave, as it were, this warning to idolatry, that it might be on its guard, and defend itself against this Josiah whenever a person of that name should be found sitting on the throne of David; and no doubt it was on the alert, and took all prudent measures for its own defence; but all in vain, for Josiah, in the eighteenth year of his reign, literally accomplished this prophecy, as we may read, 2 Kings 23:15-20.

 

[AV1611VET]

I find the supernatural claims that religious texts make to be unconvincing.

What about the natural claims?

 

[Speedwell]

Anyone can make a prophecy and fulfill it.

The real trick is preventing it from happening.

Adam Clarke says it best:

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

Adam Clarke's Commentary: This is one of the most remarkable and most singular prophecies in the Old Testament. It here most circumstantially foretells a fact which took place three hundred and forty years after the prediction; a fact which was attested by the two nations. The Jews, in whose behalf this prophecy was delivered, would guard it most sacredly; and it was the interest of the Israelites, against whom it was levelled, to impugn its authenticity and expose its falsehood, had this been possible. This prediction not only showed the knowledge of God, but his power. He gave, as it were, this warning to idolatry, that it might be on its guard, and defend itself against this Josiah whenever a person of that name should be found sitting on the throne of David; and no doubt it was on the alert, and took all prudent measures for its own defence; but all in vain, for Josiah, in the eighteenth year of his reign, literally accomplished this prophecy, as we may read, 2 Kings 23:15-20.

Great example, AV. Now--in detail--how does that account of the prophecy and its fulfillment prove that the Bible is the literal, inerrant ind inspired word of God?

 

[AV1611VET]

Great example, AV. Now--in detail--how does that account of the prophecy and its fulfillment prove that the Bible is the literal, inerrant ind inspired word of God?

I give up ... how?

God even challenges people to find ONE prophecy that doesn't come to pass.

If just ONE fails to come to pass, it's a failed prophecy, God is a liar, and like a house of cards, His whole Autobiography comes tumbling down.

People ask me why Satan, who knows the Bible better than anyone ever born (except Jesus), keeps on plugging away.

The answer is that, if he can get one ... just one ... prophecy to fail, he can defeat God.

 

[Speedwell]

I give up ... how?

God even challenges people to find ONE prophecy that doesn't come to pass.

If just ONE fails to come to pass, it's a failed prophecy, God is a liar, and like a house of cards, His whole Autobiography comes tumbling down.

People ask me why Satan, who knows the Bible better than anyone ever born (except Jesus), keeps on plugging away.

The answer is that, if he can get one ... just one ... prophecy to fail, he can defeat God.

I have no idea how. That is the question on the table. For purposes of argument, let us assume that all of the prophecies in the Bible were fulfilled. How does their fulfillment prove that the text of the Bible is literal and inerrant? I don't see a logical connection there.

 

[AV1611VET]

For purposes of argument, let us assume that all of the prophecies in the Bible were fulfilled. How does their fulfillment prove that the text of the Bible is literal and inerrant?

Beats me.

It certainly doesn't hurt Its case any.

I would say history would be the biggest proof of the inerrancy of the Bible; but we don't have a time machine, so we can't use history to do it.

Science is myopic and can't see everything.

 

[Allandavid]

What about the natural claims?

That the Jewish people existed? No problem.
That cities like Jerusalem existed? No problem.

 

[Allandavid]

That’s because you suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

So you claim....without evidence.

 

[BobRyan]

Adam Clarke says it best:

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

Adam Clarke's Commentary: This is one of the most remarkable and most singular prophecies in the Old Testament. It here most circumstantially foretells a fact which took place three hundred and forty years after the prediction; a fact which was attested by the two nations. The Jews, in whose behalf this prophecy was delivered, would guard it most sacredly; and it was the interest of the Israelites, against whom it was levelled, to impugn its authenticity and expose its falsehood, had this been possible. This prediction not only showed the knowledge of God, but his power. He gave, as it were, this warning to idolatry, that it might be on its guard, and defend itself against this Josiah whenever a person of that name should be found sitting on the throne of David; and no doubt it was on the alert, and took all prudent measures for its own defence; but all in vain, for Josiah, in the eighteenth year of his reign, literally accomplished this prophecy, as we may read, 2 Kings 23:15-20.

And the 1260 years of dark ages after the roman empire in Dan 7, and Rev 12

And the 490 year timeline in Daniel 9 with the baptism of Christ in 27 AD starting his ministry as the "annointed one"

And the 2300 year timeline of Dan 8

And the fact that Dan 2 shows how all of it fits together within the scope of exactly 4 world empires followed by a divided state that does not come back together into one single empire. Thousands of years of world history - in advance.

I have no idea how. That is the question on the table. For purposes of argument, let us assume that all of the prophecies in the Bible were fulfilled. How does their fulfillment prove that the text of the Bible is literal and inerrant? I don't see a logical connection there.

How does it not?

What "else" did you expect from a divinely inspired document??

A video??

How many documents do you actually have predicting thousands of years of world history in advance... (starting with the obvious in this case)

 

[Tinker Grey]

How does it not?

What "else" did you expect from a divinely inspired document??

A video??

How many documents do you actually have predicting thousands of years of world history in advance... (starting with the obvious in this case)

A divinely inspired document may contain fulfilled prophecy, but is every document that contains a fulfilled prophecy divinely inspired?

 

[Speedwell]

How does it not?

What "else" did you expect from a divinely inspired document??

A video??

How many documents do you actually have predicting thousands of years of world history in advance... (starting with the obvious in this case)

The Bible doesn't make the prophecy. The prophet makes the prophecy. The Bible merely tells us of it.

 

[Hammster]

So you claim....without evidence.

Here’s evidence.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
— Romans 1:18-19

 

[AV1611VET]

Here’s evidence.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
— Romans 1:18-19

There comes a time, Hammster, when you just have to say: The Bible says it, that settles it.

 

[BobRyan]

A divinely inspired document may contain fulfilled prophecy,

Indeed it may.

And isn't that prophecy-fulfilled element claimed as one of the "proofs" -- in the document itself?

John 13:19
From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

This is "Christianity 101" for believers.

And as I pointed out in a previous post - this is also proving effective in getting the attention of unbelievers.

Yesterday at 9:52 PM #149

 

[BobRyan]

A divinely inspired document may contain fulfilled prophecy, but is every document that contains a fulfilled prophecy divinely inspired?

If an atheist magazine happens to find it useful to quote a Bible text -- that does not make that theist magazine inspired by God.

I think even the one or two Christians that have objected to this idea of the Bible being inspired in places where they would prefer it not be inspired - would at least agree with that.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible doesn't make the prophecy. The prophet makes the prophecy. The Bible merely tells us of it.

The Bible is written by the prophets -- 2 Peter 1:19-21 that "spoke from God" - which as Christ said - in Mark 7:6-13 -- makes the Bible "the Word of God".

So then we believe the Bible -- Christians are funny that way.

So complaining about the inspired text is like saying that the prophecy spoken by a prophet is not inspired "because that is just the prophets lips moving"...there is a certain paucity of logic in that sort of parsing.

but for non-Christians there is always the "evidence" of fulfilled Bible prophecy to add to that realm of motivation for accepting real fact.

 

[Speedwell]

Indeed it may.

And isn't that prophecy-fulfilled element claimed as one of the "proofs" -- in the document itself?

John 13:19
From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

This is "Christianity 101" for believers.

And as I pointed out in a previous post - this is also proving effective in getting the attention of unbelievers.

Yesterday at 9:52 PM #149

There again, it's not the Bible telling us this, it's the Bible reporting what John said Jesus said. Does the Bible have to be divinely inspired to tell us what John said Jesus said? Straight reporting; a journalism intern could have taken it down.