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'Knowledge' of Existence

Nihilist Virus

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Isn't Jesus reported to have said something along the lines that "even if a man is resurrected, such an event wouldn't be really enough to convert a person"?

Let me get this straight. You come after me every time I take something literal that Jesus said. Now you lob this up in the air... a saying that is obviously hyperbole because it would be stupid if taken literal.

Yeah, I'm thinking that the inherent epistemology,

Which is hyperbole here. Jesus did use that sometimes. Unless... you've met someone with a plank in his eye...?

actually most of the epistemological indices that are strewn throughout the Bible, including those of Jesus, deny your assertion that proving the Resurrection would be more than sufficient to gain the hearts of an otherwise morally marred humanity (a.k.a. a sinful world).

You use one quote, which is hyperbolic, and then you conclude that most things in the Bible would contradict my point. LOL.

Not to mention this guy named uh... what was his name? Oh right, Thomas. **The guy who was convinced by a resurrection.**


In fact, one of the churches I was in in the past seemed to be lead by persons who wanted to curtail the ways in which a person might decide to analyze and think about the nature of the bible and various social issues which that Church had to deal with. And I told them, "Y'know, it seems that there are only certain questions that are allowed to be asked here, and to me, that doesn't bode well for getting to the truth." Of course, not everyone was pleased with the comments that I made while I was there.

Wait... you were in a church that wanted to control how its members think? The chances of that are only like 999,999/1,000,000.
 
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cvanwey

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Wait... you were in a church that wanted to control how its members think? The chances of that are only like 999,999/1,000,000.

Man, don't even get me started on churches and televangelists....
 
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cvanwey

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I just wanted to note that as you relate your story, I think I could have written it. Perhaps not as well, but ...

Thank you. I hope I can shed the light of a perspective maybe not fully understood or heard by some, or many.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Let me get this straight. You come after me every time I take something literal that Jesus said. Now you lob this up in the air... a saying that is obviously hyperbole because it would be stupid if taken literal.
It might be hyperbolic, and it might not be. But regardless, the context of the passage in Luke in which that quote of Jesus sits is one that is fairly serious and the epistemological implications are also serious, not exaggerated, not really hyperbolic, and they 'fit' with the overarching idea that God is Sovereign in how He decides to respond to any one human being's voluntary assent to His Will or to his/her continued despondency toward that same Will. Remember, "To those who have, more will be given, but to those who don't have, even what they have will be taken away."

Which is hyperbole here. Jesus did use that sometimes. Unless... you've met someone with a plank in his eye...?
Now you're overreaching your position and your exegesis is getting a little weird. Find me some scholar who agrees with you on this, NV.

You use one quote, which is hyperbolic, and then you conclude that most things in the Bible would contradict my point. LOL.
You've assumed that the epistemic implications are hyperbolic, but that's on you, buddy!

Not to mention this guy named uh... what was his name? Oh right, Thomas. **The guy who was convinced by a resurrection.**
Yeah, so what? Do you think you deserve the singular attention that Jesus gave to His most early disciples and Apostles? I've never received anything like that, and like anyone else, I'd love to have that kind of evidence. But, let's remember what Jesus also said to Thomas after He showed him His hands, feet and side. :rolleyes:

Wait... you were in a church that wanted to control how its members think? The chances of that are only like 999,999/1,000,000.
Yes, that was up until the year 2002. Of course, that set of events was partly instrumental in my then seeking a degree in Philosophy (mostly atheistic) in 2003. So, they sent me on my merry way, and now I'm this terrific, philosophical grandstander with an Ego to match yours. :rolleyes:
 
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cvanwey

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I want to steer this topic back, before some sub-topics may begin... :)

It seems as though 'common knowledge' for the existence of a specific God might prevail; like the 'knowledge' of humans, horses, stars, planets, trees, animals, etc.... Yes, the proverbial question can ALWAYS be posed. Meaning, 'how do you really know?'

It seems as though the existence of a specific God might be more abundantly clear, like the other items/agents listed above.

However, here we are, still squabbling over not only the existence in general, but which one is true and real.

I'm at least asking for 'knowledge' to which one is real, if any? Otherwise, again, it would be like telling you to obey a boss you have never met, may never meet, never see pictures, never hear from, etc....

Sometimes, before many can decide whether or not to conform, just need a little reassurance that such a claimed agent is actually real.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm still trying to figure you out sir, (in a good intended way) :) You, my friend, I still consider an 'enigma.'

I'm curious to know what was the compelling conclusion, or the overwhelming evidence presented, which lead you towards Christianity? I'm not looking for a long drawn out answer :), just the category. So I'm not trying to be patronizing, when I present some categories below (just pick one, or interject your own). Again, just curious of the most compelling CATEGORY, (not the reasoning behind the category):

1. Anectodal/personal experience
2. Cross referencing sources from the Bible to verify their reality
3. The concept of 'something from nothing'
4. Argument from complexity
5. Infinite regress problem
6. Origin of 'abiogenesis'
7. Not accepting the existence of the 'universe' always was (eternal), but maybe in a differing form prior to 'big bang' cosmology...

other.....?

I then have a very specific question for YOU, since you appear to have handled many of my questions with much thought and sincerity....

If (I) have not received my necessary evidence to think some divine deity exists, even after decades of intense and sincere study, is it honest to call myself a believer? Furthermore, why would such an entity deliberately avoid revealing His presence for me to at least know He exists? Because again, I still have 'freewill' to defy, reject, disobey - just like I could with my boss, parents, and all other agents which I 'know' exist.


Notice I place 'knowledge' and 'know' in quotes. I do this to avoid the entire topic of, 'how do you know what you know..." I don't even want to really tackle that topic, in this thread, at least :)

I'm in search of intellectual honesty. Meaning, for myself... I either believe in a resurrection, and all other tenets, or I don't. Currently, I'm on the side of doubt, and to me, the evidence is about as strong as arguing with a 'flat-earther'. Yes, they can argue their position, but the 'evidence' does not appear supported, without imposing 'faith/hope' in it's direct place.

My point is, I just don't buy it - (being Christianity) - (i.e.) skepticism. I know the one's whom oppose me, do. I"m not questioning that. I'm looking to find out if it is, in fact, actually true?.?.?.? (without getting into the whole, "how do you trust your own senses topic, if possible).

Your thoughts?

Here's something I said to ....well, literally, some other Joe here a long while back, and it serves as the starting point for this kind of discussion. I believe that until you can clear this hurdle, you can't really and truly be too worried about just how it is YOU think God SHOULD show up.

Here's the link, and it's a fairly brief post.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/just-need-support.7966947/page-2#post-70206674
 
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cvanwey

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Here's something I said to ....well, literally, some other Joe here a long while back, and it serves as the starting point for this kind of discussion. I believe that until you can clear this hurdle, you can't really and truly be too worried about just how it is YOU think God SHOULD show up.

Here's the link, and it's a fairly brief post.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/just-need-support.7966947/page-2#post-70206674

Thank you, and the post appears to make sense, in it's direct context. However it does not appear to answer my question...

What category compelled you that Christianity is true?

Furthermore, I don't feel there exists any type of epistemic philosophical conflicts, in regards to asking for empirical 'knowledge' for the existence to the asserted and specific claimed monotheistic God Yahweh?
 
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Silmarien

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If I might ask, where are you exactly? Are you a convinced theist who is looking for evidence for Christianity over other religions? Or are you asking for proofs of the existence of the Abrahamic God while seeing no compelling reason to accept theism at all?

You seem to be in the second category, which means you're really putting the cart before the horse by specifically addressing the question of whether Christianity is true. I'm getting the impression that you would be an atheist but have gotten hit by the whole fear of hell issue, which is obviously a very unhealthy way to approach all of these questions.
 
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Not David

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This question kind of poses a dichotomy (nothing postmortem, or one God)... How do we know this deity still exists, that there exists only one, and that such a claimed deity is perfect, or is still even interactive with humans today???? I have had no experiences with any interaction; just like I have had no interaction with any specific aliens/extra terrestrials.
Wouldn't the idea that there are multiple religions show that there is at least one greater power rather than none?
 
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cvanwey

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If I might ask, where are you exactly? Are you a convinced theist who is looking for evidence for Christianity over other religions? Or are you asking for proofs of the existence of the Abrahamic God while seeing no compelling reason to accept theism at all?

You seem to be in the second category, which means you're really putting the cart before the horse by specifically addressing the question of whether Christianity is true. I'm getting the impression that you would be an atheist but have gotten hit by the whole fear of hell issue, which is obviously a very unhealthy way to approach all of these questions.

Good questions...

- Was raised as a Christian for decades
- Believed for decades
- Started to question
- All answers unsatisfying intellectually
- Actually started to read the Bible, (that was a mistake)
- Asked more questions, and saw dishonesty from many, in an attempt to 'protect' their 'sacred' beliefs I then began to question
- After much study for a resurrection claim, now possess severe doubt (due to lack in evidence)
- Fear of hell is still there, because years of indoctrination has a funny way of sticking around psychologically

I hope this clarifies my current status?
 
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cvanwey

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Wouldn't the idea that there are multiple religions show that there is at least one greater power rather than none?

Nope. The number of believers, or quantity of religions has no bearing on whether or not it is actually true.
 
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Silmarien

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Good questions...

- Was raised as a Christian for decades
- Believed for decades
- Started to question
- All answers unsatisfying intellectually
- Actually started to read the Bible, (that was a mistake)
- Asked more questions, and saw dishonesty from many, in an attempt to 'protect' their 'sacred' beliefs I then began to question
- After much study for a resurrection claim, now possess severe doubt (due to lack in evidence)
- Fear of hell is still there, because years of indoctrination has a funny way of sticking around psychologically

I hope this clarifies my current status?

Yes, it does.

I would honestly stop focusing on evidence and proofs and try to work through the fear of hell instead. You could also look into some of the arguments out there for Universal Reconciliation, though I'm not sure how much that could help you at this point. But I can point you in the right direction if that's what you want. (Actually, I can do that right now. Father Aidan Kimel is a great resource, since he's got a reading list a mile long on it.)

If you're dealing with the aftermath of genuine indoctrination, though, I don't think that engaging with apologists is likely to be the healthiest of options for you right now. If you're not in the right mindset to deal with any of it, it'll probably just frustrate you further.
 
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cvanwey

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Yes, it does.

I would honestly stop focusing on evidence and proofs and try to work through the fear of hell instead. You could also look into some of the arguments out there for Universal Reconciliation, though I'm not sure how much that could help you at this point. But I can point you in the right direction if that's what you want. (Actually, I can do that right now. Father Aidan Kimel is a great resource, since he's got a reading list a mile long on it.)

If you're dealing with the aftermath of genuine indoctrination, though, I don't think that engaging with apologists is likely to be the healthiest of options for you right now. If you're not in the right mindset to deal with any of it, it'll probably just frustrate you further.

Thank you for your response. I do admit, conversing with many 'apologists' can be quite frustrating.

However, what 'mindset' is necessary to simply 'know' Yahweh exists??????

All I'm asking for, in this thread, is for some type of demonstration to the existence of God and/or Yahweh. I either believe it, or not. Sure, I could be in 'denial'. However, I either believe God exists, or not.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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It might be hyperbolic, and it might not be.

Zero chance it's not hyperbole considering that it's literally proven false in John's gospel... unless maybe... John fabricated details?

:mmh:

But regardless, the context of the passage in Luke in which that quote of Jesus sits is one that is fairly serious and the epistemological implications are also serious, not exaggerated, not really hyperbolic, and they 'fit' with the overarching idea that God is Sovereign in how He decides to respond to any one human being's voluntary assent to His Will or to his/her continued despondency toward that same Will. Remember, "To those who have, more will be given, but to those who don't have, even what they have will be taken away."

Sorry but philosophical ramblings will lose to FACTS every time without fail.

Now you're overreaching your position and your exegesis is getting a little weird. Find me some scholar who agrees with you on this, NV.

I'm overreaching to say that Jesus' quote about the plank in the eye is hyperbole?

:mmh::mmh::mmh:

You've assumed that the epistemic implications are hyperbolic, but that's on you, buddy!

Ok. Sure.

Yeah, so what? Do you think you deserve the singular attention that Jesus gave to His most early disciples and Apostles?

What a silly response. You said that a resurrection wouldn't convince an atheist. You said Jesus backed you on this. I then reminded you of doubting Thomas. This should have immediately prompted a concession on your end. But instead you basically ask me, "Who do you think you are to make that demand?" Nice try there, matador, but the bull still gored you.

I've never received anything like that, and like anyone else, I'd love to have that kind of evidence. But, let's remember what Jesus also said to Thomas after He showed him His hands, feet and side. :rolleyes:

He blessed those who believe by faith. How does that imply atheists wouldn't be convinced by a resurrection?

Yes, that was up until the year 2002. Of course, that set of events was partly instrumental in my then seeking a degree in Philosophy (mostly atheistic) in 2003. So, they sent me on my merry way, and now I'm this terrific, philosophical grandstander with an Ego to match yours. :rolleyes:

Congrats on your degree. But you did learn that ugly facts will beat beautiful philosophy every time, right?
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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As stated the statement is correct. Technically. If we were to ignore what we know is the intent behind the statement.

The reality is that morality cannot be objective no matter what, God or no God.

And if morality actually was objective, then the objectivity of morality would not be contingent upon God by definition. Objective things cannot be subject to something else because otherwise they'd be subjective.

Not only has God done a lot of things that would be considered overwhelmingly evil had they been done by a person (already enough for us to conclude either that morality is subjective or that God is objectively evil), but the "objective morality" argument is so stupid it simply can't even get off the ground. So it really blows my mind every time a Christian goes to morality. I'd say try to defend the resurrection, and everything else will fall in place. Prove the resurrection and atheists have to swallow the rest of the religion no matter how bitter it is.

I agree. The moral argument is indeed the least convincing of all the 'classic' arguments for theism. It's a convoluted mess, and should be abandoned.

I disagree about the resurrection, though. Prove to me that an apocalyptic rabbi in ancient Palestine survived his own death, and you still have a long way to go in convincing me of all the other stuff - creation, original sin, heaven, hell, etc.

Even that first step is, by all appearances, an impossible burden to meet. I'm sure glad it's not my problem.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Zero chance it's not hyperbole considering that it's literally proven false in John's gospel... unless maybe... John fabricated details?

:mmh:
Remember, we are comparing apples to grapefruit here; and what I'm mainly referring to and focusing on here is the epistemic statement found at the conclusion of a parable found in LUKE to that of a more spiritualized, ontological statement (with epistemic implications) made by Jesus to Thomas in JOHN. Let's not get confused and conflate things here.

In sum: parabolic statement in LUKE VS. ontological statement in JOHN [Luke 16:27-31 VS. John 20:26-29]

Sorry but philosophical ramblings will lose to FACTS every time without fail.
Philosophical ramblings? Remember, philosophical ramblings lean on appropriations of rational discourse, with a good portion of it actually using 'logic' to structure various arguments and/or statements. So, don't get to high on that horse of yours in assuming that your field is the only one dealing in logic or other rational and reasonable discourse.

I'm overreaching to say that Jesus' quote about the plank in the eye is hyperbole?

:mmh::mmh::mmh:
No, my referent is to the statement about the epistemic value of that statement in LUKE we were referring to. I'm not sure how the fact that the 'plank' passage applies to Luke's passage and thereby means that Jesus was being hyperbolic when he finished with His parable about Abraham's bosom.

What a silly response. You said that a resurrection wouldn't convince an atheist. You said Jesus backed you on this. I then reminded you of doubting Thomas. This should have immediately prompted a concession on your end. But instead you basically ask me, "Who do you think you are to make that demand?" Nice try there, matador, but the bull still gored you.
No, you're not getting what I'm saying, so let me reiterate. I'm saying that a miracle of any sort, such as raising some deceased family member from the dead and then sending that member to some lost family members, won't GUARANTEE the evoking of the response of faith in a person's heart.

He blessed those who believe by faith. How does that imply atheists wouldn't be convinced by a resurrection?
Yeah, it's safe to say that I interpret the bit about "being blessed by believing apart from total evidence" than you do. But, when you have 30+ books on biblical hermenetics, and the other guys has probably zero, it's not to be unexpected.

Congrats on your degree. But you did learn that ugly facts will beat beautiful philosophy every time, right?
And that's why Einstein said what he said about epistemology, right? (If you don't know what he said, I've got his little quote on my information page.)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thank you, and the post appears to make sense, in it's direct context. However it does not appear to answer my question...

What category compelled you that Christianity is true?

Furthermore, I don't feel there exists any type of epistemic philosophical conflicts, in regards to asking for empirical 'knowledge' for the existence to the asserted and specific claimed monotheistic God Yahweh?

Probably what compelled my assent and faith in Jesus was the activation of parts of my brain that aren't too dissimilar from those which were activated when I fell in love with my wife. But, I suppose you'll want me to explain why I love my wife, too?

The fact is, epistemological complications (...and notice I say "pistemological complications," not merely epistemology generally speaking) can't be extricated from the overall issue of belief and faith.

Yet, this is what it seems you're trying to assert that you can do, and while I could be wrong, the only reason I can think of as to why you are doing this is because you, like many typical working scientists today, haven't actually studied the logical and essential structures (and complexities) of your own epistemic assumptions, most of which are typically Evidentialist in nature, or how these are involved in the the human mind works. I'm thinking that you think that you've latched onto some cognitive science of some sort, and you've then begun to just run with it, thinking that you've hit the motherload and that the present epistemic structures actually in your head at the moment are in no need of any further epistemic scrutiny.

The paradox is this: even though you may have some conclusions from cognitive science by which you think you are now in no further need of epistemological scrutiny, the truth is that the field of epistemology as a whole has to do with the ways in which any person tries to 'perfectly' justify his/her own claims about the world (SO, NO ONE IS PRIVY TO AN ESCAPE FROM THIS SITUATION), and the complication is that...................and here's the kicker that really kicks me in the **********.....................NO EPISTEMOLOGY [even those involved in the sciences] enables a person to perfectly justify his or her claims about reality; and the bigger and more complex the claim is in association to its being recognized in reality, the harder it is to justify in any kind of way that other people SHOULD JUST KOW-TOW to the claim of the person who so asserts it.

So, for instance, I can make a simple claim and say, "The Sun comes up in the East." That's a simple enough claim, and most of us can vouch for its veracity. However, while this claim is true for just about everyone except those who are blind, there are a myriad of associated claims that emerge out of this one and which won't be so easily shared among all interlocutors and then justified among all these same folks. Moreover, each epistemological structure by which a person frames his or her thoughts and justifications is fraught with logical frailties and other risks of fracturing that make it so that it's very, very difficult for each of us to justify our beliefs, especially for something like ideas in the field of Religion. Additionally, some of the epistemological structures involved in something like Christian belief are fraught with even bigger problems, like that of Lessing's Ditch.

Then, to add the frosting to the cake, Biblical Epistemology itself implies that............................God isn't going to necessarily condescend to us and do for us what we each individually hope He will do to 'prove' His existence and His love for us. It's a big ol' bitter horse-pill to have to swallow, but that's just the way it is. Unfortunately, to make matters worse, there has been some amount of brainwashing going around in some evangelical Christian circles over the past few hundred years, since the onset of the Enlightenment, that claims that if a person JUST HAS ENOUGH EVIDENCE, OR THE RIGHT KIND OF EVIDENCE, then he/she will and should be able to believe. But, that ain't how the writers of the Bible tell us it all works................................................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Good questions...

- Was raised as a Christian for decades
- Believed for decades
- Started to question
- All answers unsatisfying intellectually
- Actually started to read the Bible, (that was a mistake)
- Asked more questions, and saw dishonesty from many, in an attempt to 'protect' their 'sacred' beliefs I then began to question
- After much study for a resurrection claim, now possess severe doubt (due to lack in evidence)
- Fear of hell is still there, because years of indoctrination has a funny way of sticking around psychologically

I hope this clarifies my current status?

And yes, that's an honest answer, and welcome to the Existential conundrum that we're all in together....:rolleyes: So, let's throw an existential fiesta! Yip-pee! Who wants to be a philosophical piñata? [Uh-oh, I see we have a few in the corner who are about to throw an existential tantrum.....!]
 
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Tinker Grey

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Prove to me that an apocalyptic rabbi in ancient Palestine survived his own death, and you still have a long way to go in convincing me of all the other stuff - creation, original sin, heaven, hell, etc.
I'll go further. Show there is 'spirit'; show me 'supernatural'; levitate this cup in front of me. If the substance of 'the other' cannot be shown here and now, then any explanation for things thought to happen 1000s of years ago is more likely than that it happened as written.
 
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