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'Knowledge' of Existence

cvanwey

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The problem is that you want God to provide evidence according to how you think he should do it without thinking what are the plans of God with mankind.

I think you've missed my point? It's not necessary, how I think He should do it. My point is...

1. If God professed He wants a relationship with humans, present whatever evidence would 'prove' to that person God exists. This leaves 'no excuse' for such a human to later state, 'well, I did not know you really existed. Therefore, I did not opt follow your laws; because it would be pretty lame to follow the laws of an imaginary being.'

2. "Knowledge of existence" does not even really require any 'special' criteria. Every child may discover the existence of a 'ball' differently, but they all collectively now know a 'ball' exists. My point being, 'sheer knowledge of existence' should be pretty mundane, or even matter-of-fact.

3. The rest, yes... What we do with such 'known' information is what drives the actual conclusion.
 
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jacks

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I think you've missed my point? It's not necessary, how I think He should do it. My point is...

1. If God professed He wants a relationship with humans, present whatever evidence would 'prove' to that person God exists. This leaves 'no excuse' for such a human to later state, 'well, I did not know you really existed. Therefore, I did not opt follow your laws; because it would be pretty lame to follow the laws of an imaginary being.'

2. "Knowledge of existence" does not even really require any 'special' criteria. Every child may discover the existence of a 'ball' differently, but they all collectively now know a 'ball' exists. My point being, 'sheer knowledge of existence' should be pretty mundane, or even matter-of-fact.

3. The rest, yes... What we do with such 'known' information is what drives the actual conclusion.

Interesting thread and just thinking aloud. It seems your question has morphed a bit from "How can you know God exists" to "If he exists why doesn't he just make it obvious to everyone". First I liked to say "I don't know". However, I was wondering if a being miraculously appeared before you (or everyone) and healed any ailments you may have and said "I am God". Would that be enough? Couldn't this just be an entity with advanced abilities or technology? What would it take for you to be convinced that it really was God? Or put another way would it even be possible for God to convince everyone He exists? At some point wouldn't it require an element of faith?
 
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Silmarien

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Thank you for your response. I do admit, conversing with many 'apologists' can be quite frustrating.

However, what 'mindset' is necessary to simply 'know' Yahweh exists??????

All I'm asking for, in this thread, is for some type of demonstration to the existence of God and/or Yahweh. I either believe it, or not. Sure, I could be in 'denial'. However, I either believe God exists, or not.

One problem is the way you are approaching the concept of knowledge altogether.

For an example, the decimal 0.9 repeating is the equivalent of 1. This is not something that is obviously true, and someone could dig in their heels and refuse to believe it, but as soon as you understand how fractions work, it becomes obvious that this is true.

The concepts involved in wrapping your head around something like theism are infinitely more difficult. There's nothing obviously true about any of it until you put serious effort into trying to understand it, but with something so abstract, you need to understand it on its terms instead of forcing it to fit yours. It's only at that point that someone can make a fully informed decision on whether they think it's true or not.

I'm not sure that I would say that I "know" God exists without some significant qualifiers, but any doubts I have tend to lean in the direction of alternative concepts of divinity (usually Hinduism). Like you, I would like some sort of personal divine revelation, particularly where Christianity is concerned, but it's not something I stress about too much. Except when I do, of course.

At some point, I think we do have to accept that our beliefs or lack thereof are to a certain extent outside of our control. I'm in a somewhat similar situation to you: I actually have no idea whether or not I believe in Christianity. In my case, from the opposite direction--I was virulently anti-Christian, eventually got drawn in almost in spite of myself, but a part of me still rebels against it. Which is fine, I think. We do the best we can--that's all there is to it. (I am impervious to fear tactics, though, so hell is not something I care about. At least, not over beliefs.)

As for what mindset is required, I think you need to be able to view reality in a specific way for theism to make sense at all, at least from a more Anglo-Catholic perspective. I ran into this quote from Chesterton earlier today which really perfectly describes what I'm thinking of:

There is at the back of all our lives an abyss of light, more blinding and unfathomable than any abyss of darkness; and it is the abyss of actuality, of existence, of the fact that things truly are incredibly and sometimes almost incredulously real. It is the fundamental fact of being, as against not being; it is unthinkable, yet we cannot unthink it, though we may sometimes be unthinking about it; unthinking and especially unthanking. For he who has realized this reality knows that it does outweigh, literally to infinity, all lesser regrets or arguments for negation, and that under all our grumblings there is a substance of gratitude.

Unless and until this is the sort of picture that really resonates with someone, I think they're wasting their time trying to figure out why precisely anyone ought to believe in God.
 
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cvanwey

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Interesting thread and just thinking aloud. It seems your question has morphed a bit from "How can you know God exists" to "If he exists why doesn't he just make it obvious to everyone". First I liked to say "I don't know". However, I was wondering if a being miraculously appeared before you (or everyone) and healed any ailments you may have and said "I am God". Would that be enough? Couldn't this just be an entity with advanced abilities or technology? What would it take for you to be convinced that it really was God? Or put another way would it even be possible for God to convince everyone He exists? At some point wouldn't it require an element of faith?

I think I need to be clearer :)

My OP, at the bottom, states:


'So why doesn't the one true God at least reveal himself in a way which leaves no shred of doubt of such existence? Many and most might still institute 'freewill' and make their choice not to obey, love, follow, and respect; (just like Satan and a third of the angels apparently did).'

Now getting to my 'clearer' point...

You are right, a 'floating ghost', pronouncing they are God, may not be sufficient for many reasons... But this is actually not what I'm after.... Nor, is it actually even relevant to this thread in any way really.

My point, is it seems odd that God would not instill 'everyone's needed personal evidence' to conclude that a very specific God does exist, what ever that specific person's reasoning might actually be...

From the perspective I'm coming from, it would require about as much 'faith' as one may apply to 1+1=2. Meaning, little to none.

Yes, some may still deny, like some may deny that 1+1=2, but you know what I mean :)

From there, assuming that everyone just 'knows' God exists, by whatever justification served them, does the 'test' then sufficiently seem to begin.

But instead, it seems the test is trying to milk a rock. Meaning, you must already possess a presupposition, instill some blind faith, etc... to invoke 'knowledge of existence', as opposed to the countless agents, items, etc, we all take for granite as existing. And THEN also read the Bible to make sense of it, as if we already know this specific God exists :)
 
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jacks

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Thank you for the reply, sorry I didn't get your point exactly. It seems nicely summed up here:

My point, is it seems odd that God would not instill 'everyone's needed personal evidence' to conclude that a very specific God does exist, what ever that specific person's reasoning might actually be...

So put another way: Why instill it in some and not in others? Great question and again I'm useless here; I don't know. However, I appreciate you posing the question and hope it leads to some insights.
 
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cvanwey

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One problem is the way you are approaching the concept of knowledge altogether.

For an example, the decimal 0.9 repeating is the equivalent of 1. This is not something that is obviously true, and someone could dig in their heels and refuse to believe it, but as soon as you understand how fractions work, it becomes obvious that this is true.

Basically, to make it simple, everyone should 'know' a specific deity exists. Only THEN, would there not remain doubters, skeptics, atheists, agnostics, humanists, etc.... There would then only remain 'deniers', 'rebels', etc... Like Satan, Satan's angels, and the rest whom state they believe and still choose not to follow God's word, (i.e.) 'freewill' :)

The concepts involved in wrapping your head around something like theism are infinitely more difficult. There's nothing obviously true about any of it until you put serious effort into trying to understand it, but with something so abstract, you need to understand it on its terms instead of forcing it to fit yours. It's only at that point that someone can make a fully informed decision on whether they think it's true or not.

Did that for 30+ years. Failed... Hence, my observation in this thread.

I'm not sure that I would say that I "know" God exists without some significant qualifiers, but any doubts I have tend to lean in the direction of alternative concepts of divinity (usually Hinduism). Like you, I would like some sort of personal divine revelation, particularly where Christianity is concerned, but it's not something I stress about too much. Except when I do, of course.

:)

At some point, I think we do have to accept that our beliefs or lack thereof are to a certain extent outside of our control. I'm in a somewhat similar situation to you: I actually have no idea whether or not I believe in Christianity. In my case, from the opposite direction--I was virulently anti-Christian, eventually got drawn in almost in spite of myself, but a part of me still rebels against it. Which is fine, I think. We do the best we can--that's all there is to it. (I am impervious to fear tactics, though, so hell is not something I care about. At least, not over beliefs.)

You must not have read the NT very much :)

As for what mindset is required, I think you need to be able to view reality in a specific way for theism to make sense at all, at least from a more Anglo-Catholic perspective. I ran into this quote from Chesterton earlier today which really perfectly describes what I'm thinking of:

There is at the back of all our lives an abyss of light, more blinding and unfathomable than any abyss of darkness; and it is the abyss of actuality, of existence, of the fact that things truly are incredibly and sometimes almost incredulously real. It is the fundamental fact of being, as against not being; it is unthinkable, yet we cannot unthink it, though we may sometimes be unthinking about it; unthinking and especially unthanking. For he who has realized this reality knows that it does outweigh, literally to infinity, all lesser regrets or arguments for negation, and that under all our grumblings there is a substance of gratitude.


Though I appreciate the quote, it kind of is not relevant to my topic really :(

Ugly reality will always trump beautiful literature. In this case, seems odd that a God, whom wants nothing more than to be worshiped (via the first commandment), does not even attempt to make His presence know, by any/all standards, to at least give each individual a fighting chance to be redeemed, if such a story were actually true ;)

Unless and until this is the sort of picture that really resonates with someone, I think they're wasting their time trying to figure out why precisely anyone ought to believe in God.

My point, is that all should just 'know' a very specific God exists, like people, cars, the earth, animals, planets, stars, air, etc....

Then let all the agents decide how they are actually going to deal with the 'truth
' :)
 
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cvanwey

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Thank you for the reply, sorry I didn't get your point exactly. It seems nicely summed up here:



So put another way: Why instill it in some and not in others? Great question and again I'm useless here; I don't know. However, I appreciate you posing the question and hope it leads to some insights.

Hahaha, Me too :)

And I'm going to steal your verbiage here :) 'Why instill it in some and not in others?'
 
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Not David

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Re-read the top of the OP.
The idea is that you are skeptic about the existence of God, and even if you don't want it it's related with your own personal believes about what God should be (in this case, how he reveals himself).
 
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Silmarien

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Basically, to make it simple, everyone should 'know' a specific deity exists. Only THEN, would there not remain doubters, skeptics, atheists, agnostics, humanists, etc.... There would then only remain 'deniers', 'rebels', etc... Like Satan, Satan's angels, and the rest whom state they believe and still choose not to follow God's word, (i.e.) 'freewill' :)

You're running with a version of the Argument from Divine Hiddenness here, which really only has teeth against specific interpretations of Christianity. Unless unbelievers are automatically doomed, there's no moment of truth immediately after death, or similar possibilities, there is really no logical reason that everyone should know that a specific deity exists. I do think the serious Exclusivists have a problem, but that is beside the point.

Did that for 30+ years. Failed... Hence, my observation in this thread.

What did you do, precisely?

You must not have read the NT very much :)

Everything but Hebrews. Just not through the lens of any particular denominational theology. I was actually frustrated for a while because the way most of Christianity approaches the Gospel makes absolutely no sense to me, but the Orthodox got me over that.

Ugly reality will always trump beautiful literature. In this case, seems odd that a God, whom wants nothing more than to be worshiped (via the first commandment), does not even attempt to make His presence know, by any/all standards, to at least give each individual a fighting chance to be redeemed, if such a story were actually true ;)

Ehh, I don't think it makes sense to say that God "wants" to be worshipped, unless we're viewing God as some sort of celestial tyrant with an inferiority complex. I prefer to say that relationship with God (which, if Christians are right, is going to involve worship) is good for us, though this doesn't necessarily mean that we're always in a place where it would be a positive thing, or that it must take the form that we expect it to.
 
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jacks

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Everything but Hebrews.
Off topic but I have to ask. Why not Hebrews? Did you finish Philemon and then say "There's 10 pages I'm not going to bother with...on to James!" :) Now to be honest I've never read all of Revelation, but that's because I can't understand it.
 
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Silmarien

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Off topic but I have to ask. Why not Hebrews? Did you finish Philemon and then say "There's 10 pages I'm not going to bother with...on to James!" :) Now to be honest I've never read all of Revelation, but that's because I can't understand it.

Oh, I wasn't even reading them in order. I was mostly interested in the Pauline and Johannine stuff, got through most of the rest because it was short enough, but eventually slipped into scholastic mode and got distracted by the Greek philosophers.

I'm not sure whether or not I've read Revelation--I might have as a lark back in my atheistic days, but I basically just see it as that crazy book everyone was too afraid to toss out just in case John wrote it.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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No, I want to know what he believes about deities and the supernatural.

In post #52 cvanwey said,

Nope. The number of believers, or quantity of religions has no bearing on whether or not it is actually true.

In post #72 you replied,

What would be the basis for this to be true?

So I think you're not communicating well.
 
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bling

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I think I need to be clearer :)

My OP, at the bottom, states:


My point, is it seems odd that God would not instill 'everyone's needed personal evidence' to conclude that a very specific God does exist, what ever that specific person's reasoning might actually be...

:)
How would perfect “knowledge” of the Christian God’s existence make you happy?

What changes would you make in your own life if you did know the Christian God existed?

If you are not willing to give up on self, falling on your face to willingly accept God’s pure sacrificial charity knowing that is what you really want and need, it would be much better for you to stay in your nonbeliever stay (ignorance is bless).

God is not looking to upset you nor can He force His Love on you (like some shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) if you do not want His help.

Most people want to be loved for how they want others to perceive them to be and really do not like unconditional Love (which the lowliest person on earth can get) from God, so how do you feel about being Loved and Loving others totally unconditionally?

If humility is what you “need” and “believing” in a Loving Creator is something the lowliest person on earth can do, does that not make believing in God a humbling experience?

If you find, develop, learn, discover a real “Knowledge” of God’s existence how would that make you humble?
 
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cvanwey

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How would perfect “knowledge” of the Christian God’s existence make you happy?

I would then not severely question if such a being actually existed. Which in turn, leading me to the severe doubt that anyone, other than human beings wrote the Bible, passing such script off as 'God-breathed.'

What changes would you make in your own life if you did know the Christian God existed?

Let's just say someone handed you a book, which had claimed tenets within it. It stated that if you do not believe in something specific, you will be denied or declined of it's stated rewards. But you were never given any evidence or proof of such a being. Wouldn't you demand evidence for such a claim? And honestly, I'm not sure what, if anything, I would 'currently' change about my current 'moral' actions? However, I would then start to strike up a relationship with this now 'known' being, to see if it jived with my own 'moral' sensibilities, or other.... I would like to be given the opportunity to make a sound choice, based upon actual reality, and not 'pretending' to 'know'.

If you are not willing to give up on self, falling on your face to willingly accept God’s pure sacrificial charity knowing that is what you really want and need, it would be much better for you to stay in your nonbeliever stay (ignorance is bless).

I want to be given my actual options.... As it stands, I searched for evidence for years. For me, the truth is always 'better' than imagination or fantasy, because it is 'real'.

God is not looking to upset you nor can He force His Love on you (like some shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) if you do not want His help.

All I'm asking for is evidence of existence, so I may then assess my future path accordingly. If God does not care to reveal His presence to me, then what should I do? 'Imagine' it's true?


Most people want to be loved for how they want others to perceive them to be and really do not like unconditional Love (which the lowliest person on earth can get) from God, so how do you feel about being Loved and Loving others totally unconditionally?

Yes. But to be 'loved', the individual must be 'known' to first, at least, exist. Otherwise, you are asking to 'love' an imaginary agent :)

If humility is what you “need” and “believing” in a Loving Creator is something the lowliest person on earth can do, does that not make believing in God a humbling experience?

What does 'humility' have to do with asking for proof, while not receiving my necessary proof for existence? I either 'know' something exists, or not.

If you find, develop, learn, discover a real “Knowledge” of God’s existence how would that make you humble?

I could ask you the very same question, about the 'knowledge' of Brahma.

My point is, without the knowledge of existence, I really cannot honestly answer YET.
 
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cvanwey

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What did you do, precisely?

Prayed, went to church, 'believed' - by instilling blind faith because I never actually received a sign, message, vision, or signal, spoke about the Bible with other believers, etc... You know, all the usual stuff...

Ehh, I don't think it makes sense to say that God "wants" to be worshipped, unless we're viewing God as some sort of celestial tyrant with an inferiority complex.

I don't know that I agree with you there.... I'm appealing to the 'so-called' statements from the source itself...

"I am the Lord, your God. Thou shalt not have any gods before me."

Mark 16:15-16 "15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."


Exodus 34:14 "for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"

But regardless of who is 'right', between you and I, I would like to at least be given the 'knowledge of existence', to then truly assess for myself, rather than analyzing possible 'fake' verses.
 
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Silmarien

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Prayed, went to church, 'believed' - by instilling blind faith because I never actually received a sign, message, vision, or signal, spoke about the Bible with other believers, etc... You know, all the usual stuff...

I see. When I say study, I'm not referring to anything along those lines. Theism is a 2500 year old tradition in the West--you can find tons of resources if you know where to look. (Catholicism in particular is very good for this.) If you want to remain Christian, what you need to do is break through the fundamentalist indoctrination that you seem to have been subjected to and find your own path instead.

Though that is, of course, more easily said than done. I think you do need to also look into biblical scholarship, though I'm not sure which scholars are the best bet to challenge what you've been taught without smashing what's left of your faith entirely. You might want to ask around in the subforum for Liberal Christianity--they may be able to point you in the right direction.
 
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Chriliman

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Prayed, went to church, 'believed' - by instilling blind faith because I never actually received a sign, message, vision, or signal, spoke about the Bible with other believers, etc... You know, all the usual stuff...



I don't know that I agree with you there.... I'm appealing to the 'so-called' statements from the source itself...

"I am the Lord, your God. Thou shalt not have any gods before me."

Mark 16:15-16 "15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."


Exodus 34:14 "for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"

But regardless of who is 'right', between you and I, I would like to at least be given the 'knowledge of existence', to then truly assess for myself, rather than analyzing possible 'fake' verses.

Do you have facebook? If so, follow Jacob M. Wright, he's always posting interesting and sometimes controversial things regarding Jesus and the Christian faith, some political stuff as well, which I'm not as keen about. He helped me deconstruct much of my indoctrination and rightly divide the truth from everything else.
 
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