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KJV only Question

Alithis

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So, in essence, you are saying that we do not know what the word of God really says since there are errors.

To be consistent with their theory of yours, when you post or quote scripture, you should say:

Jesus Christ might have said ….

The word of God might say ….

God might have said …

The bible might say ….

Thus might have saith the Lord ….

Yes the originals are inspired and without error.
But God always provides for His people and He provides His word in their native language (see Acts 2).

For English speaking people that is the King James Bible.

So I can honestly say:
Jesus said ….
the word of God says …
God said …
The Holy Bible says …
Thus saith the Lord …

But you cannot honestly say that,

Amazing.
i am not a kjv preservationist....
how ever, this is a good point.
and in my comparison study i have found many modifications to scritures that make no reasonable sense...

ie- only begotten changed to son
joseph changed to father
I.. changed to We.
and many more.changes that have nothing to do with making the text contemporary. the removal of thou and lest and begat.etc for you and incase and gave birth to, is modernizing.but
only begotten changed to son
joseph changed to father
I.. changed to We.
and in some cases words fully excluded..
these changes have no need ,make no sense and change meaning.... why are they there?

if you take time out to really stop and LOOK.
it is deeply concerning.
 
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Mediate

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Some of my issues with the KJV over more modern translations;

1. During the time the KJV was written, the base texts they used didn't stretch as far back toward the originals as translators use today. We now have earlier, more reliable texts.

2. King James was an English King, promoting a very English (anglican/protestant) view. He reigned not long after King Henry VIII commissioned the Great Bible.

3. King James believed in witches, and he personally oversaw many witchunts, stake burnings and the torture of accused women. It doesn't seem like someone who is authoritative to oversee a biblical translation.

4. The translators are quoted as saying 'The harshest form of God's word is still God's word'. I imagine the accusation against them was about using the harshest, most literal, certain translations from Greek and Hebrew, which they did.

5. The KJV was considered a 'hip' translation. It was considered artsy. 'A masterpiece of Jacobian prose' were the words used.

6. The KJV, although used by many, was in fact under the authority of King James and made for the Church of England. He could have planted anything in there that he liked - he was King of England.

7. Last but not least, I've found several discrepancies in the KJV which I feel are detrimental to its worth. A more recent translation, using earlier scripts than the KJV, actually translates a verse as the exact opposite of what the KJV is saying.

Here:

Phillipians 2:6 (KJV) - from BibleGateway.com

'(Jesus), Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God'

Philipians 2:6 (Mounce Interlinear) [the most recent translation I know of] - from BibleGateway.com

'(Jesus), who, although he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped'.

Opposites!



My own reading of the Greek sees the translation more like the second;

(Jesus), who, subsisting by God's form, did not regard ('hegomei ou hegomei' a greek figure of speech meaning literally 'regarding not regard' or 'esteeming not esteem') equality with God as something to seize'.

Which would actually explain a lot about the bible.
 
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Alithis

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Mediate
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Some of my issues with the KJV over more modern translations;

1. During the time the KJV was written, the base texts they used didn't stretch as far back toward the originals as translators use today. We now have earlier, more reliable texts.
-but do any of those earlier texts justify changing some of the words that have since that time been changed considering a lot of those changes are not new transaltions but revisions ?

2. King James was an English King, promoting a very English (anglican/protestant) view. He reigned not long after King Henry VIII commissioned the Great Bible.
this doesn't really mean anything ..scholars who were qualified to translate would have done the work, not the king James himself i'm sure .

3. King James believed in witches, and he personally oversaw many witchunts, stake burnings and the torture of accused women. It doesn't seem like someone who is authoritative to oversee a biblical translation.
-people who practice wiccacraft are still among us today -in those days it was against the law and again .. it means nothing ..the king himself would have orders scholars to do the work .

4. The translators are quoted as saying 'The harshest form of God's word is still God's word'. I imagine the accusation against them was about using the harshest, most literal, certain translations from Greek and Hebrew, which they did.
- which is the same as saying .. truth sometimes hurts .. & so ?


5. The KJV was considered a 'hip' translation. It was considered artsy. 'A masterpiece of Jacobian prose' were the words used.
irrelevant ,its just some guys opinion

6. The KJV, although used by many, was in fact under the authority of King James and made for the Church of England. He could have planted anything in there that he liked - he was King of England.
however there is no such evidence of any such thing and nothing in the king james version gave him any spiritual authority over peoples lives or faith or salvation,so if he made such a change he did not do so in his own interests .but again there is no evidence of any such thing ..it amounts to a false accusation.In stark contrast , Rome translated it in ever manner to give interest of self will the greatest sway of power over the people ,even bringing to bear great woe upon any one who suggested you did not need a priest to explain the scriptures and so cut off the people from the word of God. not wanting people to read for themselves and realize (as is exactly what happened in the great reformation) that they had been lied to in regard to many many things .

7. Last but not least, I've found several discrepancies in the KJV which I feel are detrimental to its worth. A more recent translation, using earlier scripts than the KJV, actually translates a verse as the exact opposite of what the KJV is saying.

Here:

Phillipians 2:6 (KJV) - from BibleGateway.com

'(Jesus), Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God'

Philipians 2:6 (Mounce Interlinear) [the most recent translation I know of] - from BibleGateway.com

'(Jesus), who, although he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped'.

Opposites!

firstly that is a single example and only declared a discrepancy by you.
next...

My own reading of the Greek sees the translation more like the second;

(Jesus), who, subsisting by God's form, did not regard ('hegomei ou hegomei' a greek figure of speech meaning literally 'regarding not regard' or 'esteeming not esteem') equality with God as something to seize'.

this is what we see more and more of , a rewording based on carnal reasoning which is little more then an attempt to deny the deity of Christ and his equality in the God head ..when you look carefully at what you have written as you own reading" of it . we must not interpret the scriptures based on our own lack of comprehension .just because we cannot understand how he can be both man and God does not give us license to write the scriptures in a manner that imply he was noit exactly who he said he was ..and risk implying him a liar .
[/QUOTE]

in short what some are saying is they do not like what they see ,as it presents them with a picture opposed to the will of the flesh , so presented with a choice between the carnal mind and what is plainly written ..they choose ..which ?
 
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Keachian

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The King James heritage is traced back to Antioch, with the exclusion of the Geneva Bible,other translations origin was Alexandria Egypt.

Athanasius, defender of the Faith was Bishop in Alexandria, I fail to see what is significant about any of these so called facts regardless of their validity.
 
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OzSpen

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in short what some are saying is they do not like what they see ,as it presents them with a picture opposed to the will of the flesh , so presented with a choice between the carnal mind and what is plainly written ..they choose ..which ?[/quote]
That is not what Mediate wrote at #82. I urge you not to misrepresent what another writer writes on CF.
 
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Alithis

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in short what some are saying is they do not like what they see ,as it presents them with a picture opposed to the will of the flesh , so presented with a choice between the carnal mind and what is plainly written ..they choose ..which ?
That is not what Mediate wrote at #82. I urge you not to misrepresent what another writer writes on CF.[/quote]

:pin short i did not say mediate said that..I urge you not to misrepresent what another writer writes on CF.;)
 
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Mediate

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That is not what Mediate wrote at #82. I urge you not to misrepresent what another writer writes on CF.

:pin short i did not say mediate said that..I urge you not to misrepresent what another writer writes on CF.;)[/QUOTE]

Well, to be fair, I see why you're convicted and how you might think I'm misconstruing. But Jesus was the one who said 'seek and you shall find', not 'read the KJV and accept it for what it is'.

He said 'you shall know them by their fruits', he spoke of 'dark and light', as did God, as did John. John said none who practice evils against another have seen the light, and that God was a being of 'pure light', and 'darkness is not found in him', and King James did practice such evils against another person. Yet christ said 'love your enemies', not 'torture them for witchcraft'.

We are told numerous times to test the spirits and find the God. Jesus himself, to my reading, never claimed to be God, however, I see how you see that he did.

What I proposed were my issues, and they do not have to be your issues, as you have demonstrated. However, I don't personally use the King James version for the reasons above and that is a choice made out of wanting to understand the God that is a compassionaire to enemies, who takes no pleasure in suffering and who is above all.

Personally I feel that Jesus isn't God, for many reasons, but I know the debate has been flogged to death and engaging in it really serves little purpose. I've heard all the arguments for it, as you have probably heard all the arguments for the contrary.

Your bible is your choice, as mine is mine, and we are likely on very different levels at present. for isntance, I don't even consider the bible to be the sole vision of God. I've seen God in the vedas, the dharma, the koran and many other places.
 
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Alithis

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:pin short i did not say mediate said that..I urge you not to misrepresent what another writer writes on CF.;)

Well, to be fair, I see why you're convicted and how you might think I'm misconstruing. But Jesus was the one who said 'seek and you shall find', not 'read the KJV and accept it for what it is'.

He said 'you shall know them by their fruits', he spoke of 'dark and light', as did God, as did John. John said none who practice evils against another have seen the light, and that God was a being of 'pure light', and 'darkness is not found in him', and King James did practice such evils against another person. Yet christ said 'love your enemies', not 'torture them for witchcraft'.

We are told numerous times to test the spirits and find the God. Jesus himself, to my reading, never claimed to be God, however, I see how you see that he did.

What I proposed were my issues, and they do not have to be your issues, as you have demonstrated. However, I don't personally use the King James version for the reasons above and that is a choice made out of wanting to understand the God that is a compassionaire to enemies, who takes no pleasure in suffering and who is above all.

Personally I feel that Jesus isn't God, for many reasons, but I know the debate has been flogged to death and engaging in it really serves little purpose. I've heard all the arguments for it, as you have probably heard all the arguments for the contrary.

Your bible is your choice, as mine is mine
.
well,im not convicted lol.
and i could already tell your stance on who the lord Jesus is by you chosen self interpretation of scripture.

i believe he is the word of God and the word became flesh just as the bible clearly states and as witnessed to me by the Holy spirit whom he sent &the witness of two,is true.
 
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Mediate

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Well, to be fair, I see why you're convicted and how you might think I'm misconstruing. But Jesus was the one who said 'seek and you shall find', not 'read the KJV and accept it for what it is'.

He said 'you shall know them by their fruits', he spoke of 'dark and light', as did God, as did John. John said none who practice evils against another have seen the light, and that God was a being of 'pure light', and 'darkness is not found in him', and King James did practice such evils against another person. Yet christ said 'love your enemies', not 'torture them for witchcraft'.

We are told numerous times to test the spirits and find the God. Jesus himself, to my reading, never claimed to be God, however, I see how you see that he did.

What I proposed were my issues, and they do not have to be your issues, as you have demonstrated. However, I don't personally use the King James version for the reasons above and that is a choice made out of wanting to understand the God that is a compassionaire to enemies, who takes no pleasure in suffering and who is above all.

Personally I feel that Jesus isn't God, for many reasons, but I know the debate has been flogged to death and engaging in it really serves little purpose. I've heard all the arguments for it, as you have probably heard all the arguments for the contrary.

Your bible is your choice, as mine is mine.
well,im not convicted lol.
and i could already tell your stance on who the lord Jesus is by you chosen self interpretation of scripture.

i believe he is the word of God and the word became flesh just as the bible clearly states and as witnessed to me by the Holy spirit whom he sent &the witness of two,is true.

Convicted just means 'certain'. You seem certain.

But John can be interpreted differently, given the similarities with the genesis account.

'In the beginning was the word' --- 'In the beginning ...... 'God spoke'

And the word was with God, and God was the word' -- 'God spoke 'let there be light', and there was light'

'It was in the beginning with God, when all things were created by it' -- 'let there be light' (God creating by his word, or 'speech')

'All things were created by him. Not a single thing that was created was created apart from him' - self explanatory

'In him was life and that life was the light of men and the light shines on the darkness and the darkness does not comprehend it' - 'he separated the light from the darkness'.

John's giving an account of the creation of the Earth by God, and explaining the premise of light and dark. Just like genesis does, in physical terms, while John does it in philosophical terms. The light is unhindered vision into reality, to God, and the dark is the blindness to the light.

Hinduism says the same. Buddha explains light and dark like this. In fact the essence of many eastern creation stories, or stories of the realities of existence, use this premise. Jesus himself talks about light and dark, how being in the light illuminates the dark and the dark no longer causes a person to blindly stumble, how in seeing through the dark, illuminating it with light, the light leads a person to guide those in darkness, rather than fear them or despise them. Jesus was the 'light of the world', just as buddha was 'enlightened'.

John doesn't prove anything about Jesus divinity here. The word in greek for 'it' and 'this thing' and 'that' and 'he' and 'him' are exactly the same and can be translated as either, validly, in this text.

Considering the many times Jesus points to the Father, separate from himself, and calls the father greater than him, it would be logical to translate these verses in light of that - that God is greater.

Most people don't. That's up to them.
 
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Alithis

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Convicted just means 'certain'. You seem certain.

But John can be interpreted differently, given the similarities with the genesis account.

'In the beginning was the word' --- 'In the beginning ...... 'God spoke'

And the word was with God, and God was the word' -- 'God spoke 'let there be light', and there was light'

'It was in the beginning with God, when all things were created by it' -- 'let there be light' (God creating by his word, or 'speech')

'All things were created by him. Not a single thing that was created was created apart from him' - self explanatory

'In him was life and that life was the light of men and the light shines on the darkness and the darkness does not comprehend it' - 'he separated the light from the darkness'.

John's giving an account of the creation of the Earth by God, and explaining the premise of light and dark. Just like genesis does, in physical terms, while John does it in philosophical terms. The light is unhindered vision into reality, to God, and the dark is the blindness to the light.

Hinduism says the same. Buddha explains light and dark like this. In fact the essence of many eastern creation stories, or stories of the realities of existence, use this premise. Jesus himself talks about light and dark, how being in the light illuminates the dark and the dark no longer causes a person to blindly stumble, how in seeing through the dark, illuminating it with light, the light leads a person to guide those in darkness, rather than fear them or despise them. Jesus was the 'light of the world', just as buddha was 'enlightened'.

John doesn't prove anything about Jesus divinity here. The word in greek for 'it' and 'this thing' and 'that' and 'he' and 'him' are exactly the same and can be translated as either, validly, in this text.

Considering the many times Jesus points to the Father, separate from himself, and calls the father greater than him, it would be logical to translate these verses in light of that - that God is greater.

Most people don't. That's up to them.
and the word became flesh!

that can never be attributed to ANY other teaching .and again,just because we cannot comprehend how it can be,does not give us license to dismiss it.Jesus said "I and the father are one" ...
we can.A,believe him
B, disbelieve and try to explain it otherwise.
 
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Mediate

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and the word became flesh!

that can never be attributed to ANY other teaching .and again,just because we cannot comprehend how it can be,does not give us license to dismiss it.Jesus said "I and the father are one" ...
we can.A,believe him
B, disbelieve and try to explain it otherwise.

I see your point, but I also disagree that it's the only point.

The spoken word becoming flesh is simple, really. God spoke humans into existence. God spoke teachings to those humans. And Jesus adhered to those teachings, thus, the word became flesh.

Instead of having only text, we now have a human example to look to.

Again, I don't think it says anything about Jesus being divine.
 
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Alithis

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I see your point, but I also disagree that it's the only point.

The spoken word becoming flesh is simple, really. God spoke humans into existence. God spoke teachings to those humans. And Jesus adhered to those teachings, thus, the word became flesh.

Instead of having only text, we now have a human example to look to.

Again, I don't think it says anything about Jesus being divine.

its not me you disagree with.
& your doing what i described.
....
and the word became flesh!

that can never be attributed to ANY other teaching .and again,just because we cannot comprehend how it can be,does not give us license to dismiss it.Jesus said "I and the father are one" ...
we can.A,believe him
B, disbelieve and try to explain it otherwise/away.

we are told to NOT lean on our own understanding.and option B. is why.

----------------
just a note:cf rules apply ,please read them again.
 
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Mediate

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its not me you disagree with.
& your doing what i described.
....
and the word became flesh!

that can never be attributed to ANY other teaching .and again,just because we cannot comprehend how it can be,does not give us license to dismiss it.Jesus said "I and the father are one" ...
we can.A,believe him
B, disbelieve and try to explain it otherwise/away.

we are told to NOT lean on our own understanding.and option B. is why.

----------------
just a note:cf rules apply ,please read them again.

Just like Paul and Oppolos were 'one' in Paul's eyes?

Unity of perspective or of purpose is not equivalent to unity of person.

Again, I can see why you view things as you do, but your view is not the only view that exists nor can exist.

The subjective nature of personal belief dictates that you use your own reason. Your scriptural interpretations are a product of your cognition, and the manner in which you cognate is directly related to your personal perspective.

What christ talked about was relinquishing definitive, preconceived understanding, not foregoing logic and reasoning entirely. If we do not reason, how do we ever discern?

To say that you do not somehow form conclusions based on your own understanding, but in fact that you solely understand the perspective of God, and all else is false, is simply a roundabout way of saying you believe your own understanding to be the sole, genuine reality of things as they are to God.

A bold claim to make in any circumstance.

Be careful of absolute certainty, particularly when it leaves no room for anyone to discover God for themselves.
 
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Alithis

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Just like Paul and Oppolos were 'one' in Paul's eyes?

Unity of perspective or of purpose is not equivalent to unity of person.

Again, I can see why you view things as you do, but your view is not the only view that exists nor can exist.

The subjective nature of personal belief dictates that you use your own reason. Your scriptural interpretations are a product of your cognition, and the manner in which you cognate is directly related to your personal perspective.

What christ talked about was relinquishing definitive, preconceived understanding, not foregoing logic and reasoning entirely. If we do not reason, how do we ever discern?

To say that you do not somehow form conclusions based on your own understanding, but in fact that you solely understand the perspective of God, and all else is false, is simply a roundabout way of saying you believe your own understanding to be the sole, genuine reality of things as they are to God.

A bold claim to make in any circumstance.

Be careful of absolute certainty, particularly when it leaves no room for anyone to discover God for themselves.

-in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was God
-and the Word became flesh (singular ) and we beheld "his (singular) Glory the glory of the ONLY begotten of the father .
- before Abraham was , I AM.
- if you have sen me you have seen the father
-I and the father are one
Emmanuel - God with us
and his name shall be called wonderful counselor everlasting father ,mighty God.
...
there is no other conclusion that FAITH and belief can come to .

stating otherwise just because we cannot comprehend how that can be ..is doubt of what is plainly declared to BE.-and doubt ,is the opposite of faith.

i once asked the lord sincerely how is it that the lord Jesus can be the son..yet declared to be God ..how can he be the name given above ALL names in heaven and earth and yet .. it is written that he will be brought into subjection . thus I asked the lord ..how can he be both the manifestation of GOD in the flesh and subject to GOD .
-there are all the questions you struggle with are they not ?

the lord showed me so simply that the word spoken is the expressed will of the speaker and as such is the speakers heart outwardly expressed .. and that word(speaking) became flesh and the word spoken does not speak itself but it is both the full authority of the speaker and subject to the speaker because the word does not speak itself,it is spoken .thus he is both equal to God and subject to God at the same time eternally .

he said he and the father are ONE ... i believe him !
 
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now faith

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Just like Paul and Oppolos were 'one' in Paul's eyes?

Unity of perspective or of purpose is not equivalent to unity of person.

Again, I can see why you view things as you do, but your view is not the only view that exists nor can exist.

The subjective nature of personal belief dictates that you use your own reason. Your scriptural interpretations are a product of your cognition, and the manner in which you cognate is directly related to your personal perspective.

What christ talked about was relinquishing definitive, preconceived understanding, not foregoing logic and reasoning entirely. If we do not reason, how do we ever discern?

To say that you do not somehow form conclusions based on your own understanding, but in fact that you solely understand the perspective of God, and all else is false, is simply a roundabout way of saying you believe your own understanding to be the sole, genuine reality of things as they are to God.

A bold claim to make in any circumstance.

Be careful of absolute certainty, particularly when it leaves no room for anyone to discover God for themselves.

John says nothing about being synonymous with God in someone's eye.

He states Christ our Lord is God.
He has been God from the beginning.
All things were created by him.
 
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