Kippah/Tallit in a church???

[sojeru]

Hi BenTsion,

I personally have a view that will not sit correctly within other people, especially Chr1stians.
However, a Church is not a house of Prayer- though people may want to argue this- there will not be an agreement so why bother debating about it.
So what i want to for you is share what I know as being a Jewish believer- it is up to you to take it.
Now, I recognize rabbinic authority. The only house of prayer is that in which there is a legitimate Rabbi.
However, according to my knowledge you, as a Jew can pray any where you like- however, if you give Tefilla- then you as a Jew must do it as a Jew.
We jews only have 3 times in which we are to seriously give a certain time to give tefillah- outside of this there is just prayers that you give to HaShem, out of need or out of thanksgiving.

I ask you, what are you going to church to pray for? if to pray at all? What is your reason for going to church? only to satisfy your family? Are you giving them hopes that you will follow the protestant way? You must seek HaShem in His answers and seek out what your rabbi would say. I say seek the answer from a legitimate Rabbi that went through the schooling and intense trainingg to become one- if you are messianic and your rabbi has not undergone such training to become one- then he is no rabbi.

Seek HaShem and seek the answer from learned men- explain to them your situation and they will understand.

shalom u'bracha

 

[BenTsion]

Sojeru,

I ask you, what are you going to church to pray for?

Well, to pray WITH my family would be one good possibility.
Also, if I want them to visit the synagogue I attend, then I
myself have to be available to visit their church.

Besides, there's pretty much one church on every corner here
and sometimes I feel like praying or being with brothers/sisters
on a day or time in which there's no service going on in the
synagogue I attend.

I don't see a problem with going to a protestant church, since
our core beliefs (the ones that matter most, in other words, the
faith we have in Messiah) are the same. I don't feel like I'd be
losing my messianic identity in doing so. And I wouldn't go to
a non-messianic synagogue for praying, unless when I'm trying
to get to know people so that later on I can share Yeshua with
them.

The synagogue I used to attend before I moved to São Paulo
had a real rabbi. But the one I attend now doesn't. He doesn't
even use the title 'rabbi', we simply call him Rosh. I'm going to
visit the only other messianic synagogue here in SP next Shabbat.
I heard they have a rabbi there, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, I still don't know whether I should wear a kippah in
church or not.

In Mashiach,
Ben Tsion

 

[Henaynei]

Anyway, I still don't know whether I should wear a kippah in
church or not.

Try this litmus:
If you are wearing it to obey and honor HaShem, probably so....

If you are doing it to garner comments or force feed questions or "make a point," probably not...

Check your heart - your kavannah - and decide accordingly.....

In Judaism, there is no *one* answer about anything except as written in Torah, and even that........... OIY!

 

[johnd]

Did not the Messiah condemn the Pharisees for wearing their prayer shawls in such a way as to draw attention to themselves?

And the yarmulkeh, is, well, a more recent tradition added to apostate Judaism which rejects the Messiah who has come.

Ought we immitate them for the sake of Jewishness?

Why not seek out the Jewishness the D'var 'lohiym specifies?

1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

Regards,

 

[simchat_torah]

And the yarmulkeh, is, well, a more recent tradition added to apostate Judaism which rejects the Messiah who has come.

Johnd, this is quite incorrect. The Kippah predates the time of Y'shua and some Rabbinic scholars date it to Moshe (moses).

Ought we immitate them for the sake of Jewishness?

It's not a matter of 'imitating jewishness'... I would warn you that those types of comments can be highly offensive to the true Messianic community
(those of Jewish descent). In otherwords, please be careful of what you say in this section, by such statements you are doing more harm than anything else.

Did not the Messiah condemn the Pharisees for wearing their prayer shawls in such a way as to draw attention to themselves?

To my recollection, and I may be wrong... point out where if I am, Y'shua did not mention the Tallit as a form of hypocrytical attitudes. Granted, I'm not denying it can be done in a prideful way, but the messiah... again to my knowledge... did not make any such comment.

shalom,
Yafet.

 

[sojeru]

Hey Simchat, thanks for toning it down- I was about to pounce.

Hi johnd,

you said

1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

of course these arent your words- however, you meant for them to reffer to the entire body. In this acknowledgement you stand in error.

I dont want to give you the answer straight out- however, to what kind of people was Paulos speaking to?
If you know to who exactly Paulos was speaking to- you would know that he is not directing it toward the entire body of believers.
By saying this you have shown that you do not have great insight in interpreting.
However, i do applaud you because you want to follow bible.
So if you wish to follow bible- would not this saying from Messiah contradict all that you tried to goal in this thread by your post?
Read Matthew 23:1-3
The PHARISEES (ORTHODOX Rabbis) are the only official interpreters of the scripture.
And in the Talmud, James the brother of Messiah Yeshuah, is the Rosh beit din (cheif Rabbi of the sanhedrin) in the temple! So this would mean that he himself governed over the pharisees and the pharisees followed him.

So, it seems that you are the one in need of understanding what G-D and His bible really want to teach the people.

On the other hand, I again applaud you for trying to find truth- However, do not stop at your current position you have a long way to go as do all of us here.

shalom and be well
Antonio

 

[sojeru]

oh yeah, johnd

just read Henaynei's signature- its all right there

 

[johnd]

oh yeah, johnd

just read Henaynei's signature- its all right there

I not only love Torah, by the imputed righteousness of Messiah through my belief in him, I uphold Torah!

Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[johnd]

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[johnd]

And, as far as offense goes, I cannot do anything about being thin skinned.

The fact is that Judaica which rejects Yeshua as Moshiach has over the past two millenia developed along the lines of that regard. One must not place emulating them on par with following Messiah. It was Messiah who said:

John 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim (the extant scriptures when he thus spoke).

Luke 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying by rejecting Judaism and following Christianity one follows Jesus. Nuh uh. I am saying follow Messiah above all else <period>

If that offends, then so be it.

 

[Rabbi Cohen]

BS"D

Shalom Kulam,

I only have a few seconds before Shabbos begins so....

Consider if you will that the Tallis, as we know it, did not exist in the 2nd Temple period. A prawer shawl is a later invention to enable us to have a halachically valid "outside" article of clothing that we could attach Tzistzis too. Just as the katan is a kosher article of clothing for the sole purpose of enabling us to keep this mitzvah.

Good Shabbos everyone!
Until Motzei Shabbos,
Zie Gezundt,
Rabbi Cohen

 

[BenTsion]

Shalom again chaverim,
I don't have much time cause I'm writing from a cybercafe (my puter's broken).
I just wanted to say that I decided to wear the Kippah at the presbyterian church
I was visiting, cause I decided that I would not deny my Jewish roots and my beliefs
in order to 'conform', and since the Kippah would not cause any scandal, I said to myself, why not?
Well, it all turned out very well. Nobody stared at me, I didn't feel naked and in fact some people came to talk to me at the end of the service and wanted to introduce me to some other messianic jews that attend there on Sundays. So I got to meet other MJs and they have already even invited me to visit the synagogue they attend. In fact, it surprised me how respectful people were and how aware they are that they have to love Israel. Baruch HaShem!

In Mashiach,
Ben Tsion

 

[johnd]

From the Second Jewish Book of Why (Page 52)


"Why has the practice of keeping one's head covered become widespread among Orthodox and some Conservative Jews when not all authorities believe it is demanded by Jewish law?

"Despite the preponderance of opinion (as indicated in the two previous questions) the keeping of one's head covered is not required by biblical or talmudic law, and despite the fact that it was never unanimously espoused by rabinic authorities, many observant Jews in recent centuries covered their heads at all times.

"Probably the most plausible explanation of this development is that over the centuries Jews were accustomed to seeing Christians going about with head uncovered--particularly in church--and the uncovered head became associated with Christianity. To maintain their integrity as a community, Jews often avoided practices that were current among Christians."

 

[johnd]

So, my point is, if there is no tanakh / talmudic requirement for the wearing of a male head covering, AND there is a B'rit Kodesha requirement against it in prayer, why is this disregarded in Messianic circles other than to identify with Jewry that rejects Messiah?

 

[iitb]

So, my point is, if there is no tanakh / talmudic requirement for the wearing of a male head covering, AND there is a B'rit Kodesha requirement against it in prayer, why is this disregarded in Messianic circles other than to identify with Jewry that rejects Messiah?

You might want to check out http://www.christianforums.com/t55923. This is a previous discussion on kippot where simchat_torah provided some very good links on why to wear one.

 

[Henaynei]

So, my point is, if there is no tanakh / talmudic requirement for the wearing of a male head covering, AND there is a B'rit Kodesha requirement against it in prayer, why is this disregarded in Messianic circles other than to identify with Jewry that rejects Messiah?

Based on your use of scripture I am sure your are well aware - one must take the whole consul of G-d into account and also consider the intended audience of a particular passage. Agreed?

The T'NaKh does indeed command that the head be covered in prayer - for the priests in the Temple. Are we not both Temple and priests??

It was specifically to the gentile believers in Corinth that Sha'ul wrote that admonishment (1Cor 1:4) as related to carrying over from their pagan past customs that were not g-dly.

 

[Rabbi Cohen]

BS"D

Shalom,

I wanted to give the Talmudic sources for the "suggestion" and teaching that it is a righteous man who covers his head. Also, in the Talmud (Mas.Kid.8a) it does in fact tell us that a pious man NEEDS his head covered. The actual text translated into english reads: "R. Kahana (a Cohen), who is a great man and needs a sudar for his head..." Sudarium were what the Kippah or Yarmulke is today. The Sudar was larger and consisted of a specific type of twisted scarf or strip of material, (similar to a Turban, but distinguishable by markings and style of wrapping).

While it may be somewhat informational and convenient to go to a secondary or tertiary reader such as Rabbi Kolatch's books, he, oftentimes, tends to give information in an ambiguous manner. Suggesting that there are other possible interpretations for such minhagim as the Yarmulke. My feelings are that he writes this way as not to alienate any possible readers and thus promote higher rates of sales to his books, however, these are my own feelings. I feel to understand what the Talmud is truly saying, we must study the Talmud. So let's take a look at what the Talmud states about the issue of man covering his head.

In Mas. Kid. 31a it says - "R. Isaac said: He who transgresses in secret is as though he pressed the feet of the Shechinah for it is written: Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. R. Joshua b. Levi said: One may not walk four cubits with haughty mien, for it is said, the whole earth is full of His glory. R. Huna son of R. Joshua would not walk four cubits bareheaded, saying: The Shechinah is above my head."

As we can see in this sugya it is certainly suggested that a pious or righteous man WOULD cover his head. If one of our greatest sages, R. Huna, wouldn't go four cubits without his head covered, why would we, men aspiring to any level of holiness, do any less.

Also in Mas. Shab. 118a, the entire sugya speaks about rewards for holiness, R. Huna says: "...May I be rewarded for never walking four cubits bareheaded."

These are very powerful statements of behaviors to be imitated. Finally, (but certainly not in finality) we come to what is meant to be interpreted as a requirement for the men of B'nei Israel to cover their heads. In Mas. Shabbos 156b it says: "From R. Nahman b. Isaac too [we learn that] Israel is free from planetary influence. For R. Nahman b. Isaac's mother was told by astrologers, Your son will be a thief. [So] she did not let him [be] bareheaded, saying to him, ‘Cover your head so that the fear of heaven may be upon you, and pray [for mercy]’.

Johnd, you mention that:

So, my point is, if there is no tanakh / talmudic requirement for the wearing of a male head covering, AND there is a B'rit Kodesha requirement against it in prayer, why is this disregarded in Messianic circles other than to identify with Jewry that rejects Messiah?

And I think that the best answer to your question would be; because the wearing of a covering upon a man's head best symbolizes a desire and an attempt to be righteous and holy, (at very least observant) before G-d. Not merely a symbol to identify with a nation, as many in Israel today wear it; the Yarmulke is a reminder to many that the Shechina of Hashem is above them and they should be mindful of their Avodas Hashem, (service to G-d).

You also quoted from Rabbi Kolatch...

"Despite the preponderance of opinion (as indicated in the two previous questions) the keeping of one's head covered is not required by biblical or talmudic law, and despite the fact that it was never unanimously espoused by rabinic authorities, many observant Jews in recent centuries covered their heads at all times.

I would remind you that neither is the keeping of Torah "Required" by Hashem. Rather the observance of the mitzvos, the keeping or the law, is encouraged; our observance of any mitzvos is our choice. It says in Devarim (Deut.) 30:19,20: "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the L-RD your G-d, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the L-RD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." If such a large thing as the Torah is given to us as a choice, why should we also not choose to honor him with the minhag of keeping our head covered, (in case you didn't recognize this arguement, it is called Kal v'Chomer).

All the best,
Rabbi Cohen

 

[P_G]

If the children of Y'isreal were commanded to wear the tzizit as a reminder of the Holy Law, then as a messianic beleiver this command still stands.

Being redeemed by the blood of Y'suah then the reminder becomes even more so relevent in that we are reminded of G-ds Holy law and our inability to keep the law and our need for messiah.

It becomes a reminder of the great gift given to us.

Though I am a gentile I routinely wear a tallit at church service.

Graffted in as a wild olive branch it is our honor to follow the law and praise G-d that he allows us to do so.

I don't really have an opinion of the wearing of the kippah though if it is being done for reverence of G-d and not for vain glory I would say do so.

Blessings in the precious name of Y'suah

Pastor George

 

[ShirChadash]

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It's not a matter of 'imitating jewishness'... I would warn you that those types of comments can be highly offensive to the true Messianic community
(those of Jewish descent).

(raising hand) please excuse my interruption, as I do not wish to hijack the thread but I haven't figured out my way around this board as of yet. Simchat_torah, are you saying that only those Messianics of physical Jewish descent are "true Messianics"?

 

[simchat_torah]

oh no, I'm not saying that at all...

But I was merely making an observation that those of Jewish descent are often specifically offended by being accused of "imitating" Judaism, when they themselves are Jewish!

that's all.

shalom,
yafet.