Kippah/Tallit in a church???

BenTsion

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Shalom chaverim,
Please forgive me if this sounds silly, but I have a question: would you wear a kippah or a tallit in a christian church? I'm asking that because I've been invited by some of my relatives to attend service in some protestant churches and there's one thing that's been bothering me a little (no big deal, but, since we're here to debate, let's debate!). I feel so... "naked"... walking into a house of prayer without my kippah. I know it's silly, but it has a meaning to me, it is a sign of my submission to G-d, and acknowledging that One greater than us all is present. I also feel pretty "strange" (not the exact word, but I can't think of a better one right now) joining a prayer service without my tallit. Then again, I'm afraid that by wearing them (esp. the tallit) I could be making a fool out of myself, that people would look at me wondering what in G-d's name is wrong with me. So I kind of have to face this dillemma: do I feel "naked" or "embarrassed"? :(

Am I the only one who gets these feelings? Have I totally lost my mind? :)
How do you other Messianics out there deal with this? Have you ever thought about it at all?

Thanks in advance for your comments!

Ben Tsion
 
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We are all G-d’s children, why should you feel ashamed about wearing a kippah to church? If it’s a matter of your faith then so be it. Will G-d or the Christians in that church view you as any different than their brother? It is uncommon in a Christian Church yes, and people may look (as all are curious) but it wouldn’t be in a discriminating or evil way, they may just be trying to understand. I doubt anybody would think differently of you. Truthfully, if I saw somebody wearing a Kippah and/or Tallit in a church, the first thought that would cross my mind would be that they may be Jewish, in which I would be honored that they came to a church. As you being a Messianic Jew, the church setting may be a bit different than what you are used to, I have never been to a Protestant Church, so I don’t know what they teach or how they do things but I bet they would teach the same message, and that’s what counts
 
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iitb

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Hmmm, tough question. I don't know that I would, mostly because I don't think I'd enjoy answering questions about them. Of course, I also don't know that I'd consider a visit to a church a time of prayer; I'd probably go just to be polite & count the minutes until the service ended. However, my shortcomings shouldn't affect your decision :)

You should do what you feel is right. If that means not "blending in," so be it!
 
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simchat_torah

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haha... Justin, you have come a long way since I first met you.

First, let me say... there is no right answer.

Now, I have a couple of questions for you. Hopefully, they can lead you to a decision:
1) Would you be entering a house of worship?
2) Would wearing your Kippah cause others to be curious, or merely offended?
not that we do everything for others, but its something to consider
3) Why do you wear a kippah, when is it required?
4) Is HaShem desiring you to wear the Kippah?
I wouldn't say it is wrong for you to wear it out of your own desire, but if HaShem impresses it upon your heart, how can you say no? ;)
5) Why would you wear it in a church?
6) Why would you not?


I thought about giving you an answer. Then I thought of the flip side of the coin.
Then I finally decided this is only something you can answer for yourself. I'd just help you figure out your decision.

To be honest, when I first came into Judaism (this was like 6 years ago), I wore a Tallit everywhere for about 1 year. I now have a different perspective, and I'd share it with you, but I don't want to hijack the thread.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts.

Shalom,
Yafet.
 
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Achichem

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BenTsion said:
Shalom chaverim,
Please forgive me if this sounds silly, but I have a question: would you wear a kippah or a tallit in a christian church? I'm asking that because I've been invited by some of my relatives to attend service in some protestant churches and there's one thing that's been bothering me a little (no big deal, but, since we're here to debate, let's debate!). I feel so... "naked"... walking into a house of prayer without my kippah. I know it's silly, but it has a meaning to me, it is a sign of my submission to G-d, and acknowledging that One greater than us all is present. I also feel pretty "strange" (not the exact word, but I can't think of a better one right now) joining a prayer service without my tallit. Then again, I'm afraid that by wearing them (esp. the tallit) I could be making a fool out of myself, that people would look at me wondering what in G-d's name is wrong with me. So I kind of have to face this dillemma: do I feel "naked" or "embarrassed"? :(

Am I the only one who gets these feelings? Have I totally lost my mind? :)
How do you other Messianics out there deal with this? Have you ever thought about it at all?

Thanks in advance for your comments!

Ben Tsion
I've been there,it's truly hard,
I wore them for the same reasons one time;
I felt really un-comfortable,
So I never did it again,
But no one was bad about it,
I just felt more comfortable not sticking out.
I just didn’t like answering all the questions;
And the situation started distracting me more then I thought being without them would.I pray for myself that I have more strength in the matter next time.


Also you should know that a good amount of people think your doing it just to get attention or make a statement, but that because they do not know what they mean to us.

My advice probably not too helpful but it is: if you think you have the strength to answer the questions and not get distracted by the stares and or comments, wear them; Otherwise, I would however say it is easier just to try getting use to not having them on.

Anyways,
Best of luck,
Shalom,
DaTsar
 
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BenTsion

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Yafet,
You've raised some interesting points for me to consider. Though I know those questions are supposed to be rhethorical and in the end it's up to me, I'm going to take the liberty of answering them here, so that perhaps we all can try to come to a conclusion together (if that's possible among jewish people - lol!)

1) Would you be entering a house of worship?
I suppose so, yes.

2) Would wearing your Kippah cause others to be curious, or merely offended?
not that we do everything for others, but its something to consider
I don't think anyone here in Brazil would be offended by it. Curious? Certainly!

3) Why do you wear a kippah, when is it required?
I know the word 'kippah' means 'awe of the King'. I know it is not a biblical tradition (it's only found in the Talmud), but I believe it to be a sign of respect and reverence. When? When I enter a house of worship, I guess.

4) Is HaShem desiring you to wear the Kippah?
I wouldn't say it is wrong for you to wear it out of your own desire, but if HaShem impresses it upon your heart, how can you say no?
Hmmm... that's a tough one. I feel that the desire to wear the kippah comes from HaShem, since it gives glory to Him. An act that is intended to glorify Him comes from the Ruach HaKodesh within us.

5) Why would you wear it in a church?
Because it's a house of worship.

6) Why would you not?
Because nobody else does and it might feel weird.

Even though I know it's up to me, I'd like to know what you guys would do in a similar situation.

In Him,
Ben Tsion

PS: I AM interested in your perspective of Judaism, Yafet, so I'll msg you privately about it. :)
 
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Henaynei

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I am not a fellow, but I can approach this a bit.



I wear an opaque snood that totally covers my hair at all times except in bed.



I felt self-conscious at first (5 years ago) but have long lost that, in most situations. I am a nurse and this has caused numerous situations, both at work, with my patients and employers, and socially (I have been identified as a muslim [after 9/11] or a nun).



My discomfort arises most in situations where others are judging me - like in a christian service or with people I knew when I was christian. There are usually 2 classes of questions:



1) honestly inquisitive --- "Why do you wear that?" To which I answer “to obey and honor G-d.”

2) defensively accusatory ---- "Why do you wear that?" To which I answer “to obey and honor G-d.”



I have not made a reputation for acquiescing to the opinions of others, though, honestly, I likely do it nearly as much as the average person. I do not, however, stop some form of observance or obedience because those around me either don’t understand it or find it offensive. But then, neither do I trumpet it. “Gentle as a dove, wise as a serpent.”



I discussed it with my husband and he decided that he likely would not go to a service where he and his Judaism were not welcomed. But he wears his kippah all the time when he is awake, not unlike my snood. He did state that if one only wore the kippah in shul then he likely would not wear it in a church, if it would appear that he was trying to "make a statement."
 
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simchat_torah

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Shalom Henaynei,

My wife would like to know some of the passages that you feel support women wearing head coverings. It is something she is strongly considering at this point, and she's wanting to examine what scriptural basis inspired you.

Shalom,
Yafet.
 
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yod

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Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.

Of course that verse is speaking of liberty from sin but it should also apply to our cultural expressions within the body. Do all things to the glory of G-d. If you honor the Lord in this way, then others might be moved to honor Him in their own ways.

If some are curious it will open the door to teach them a jewish perspective of the gospel. If some are offended, it will be an issue of their own hearst that that THEY have to deal with. If you would rather not risk stirring up strife there is nothing wrong with that either...but I wonder if that is a place where I would even go for worship. I might go there specifically to challenge attitudes, though.

Seems like it's totally between you and the Lord. I'd love to hear the results.
 
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GreenEyedLady

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Henaynie-
You stated that you once were a christian. I thought you were a christian? Maybe I am confused. Are you then Jewish?

To everyone else on the thread. What is the Tulumd and why is the Kippa a tradition. I know a little about the tallit but not much about the kippa.
Thanks
GEL
 
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Henaynei

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GreenEyedLady said:
Henaynie-
You stated that you once were a christian. I thought you were a christian? Maybe I am confused. Are you then Jewish?
Dear GEL,

I ceased being a christian quite some time ago. Neither would most christians who knew and understood my core beliefs consider me a christian.

I clearly and stringently do NOT believe in the Trinity.

I do not, therefore, adhere to the totality of the Niceane Creed.

I do believe that salvation is something I "work out with fear and trembling" through trust in and obedience to Torah and the G-d of Torah, also manifest to us through the life, actions and sacrifice of Yeshua.



I believe the Torah and K'tuvim and Nevi'im (called by some the Old Testament) hold precedence to the K'tuvim Natzrim (called by some the New Testament).



GreenEyedLady said:
What is the Talumd?
The simplist explanation of the Talmud is that it is the distillation of the study and insight of the rabbis and other g-dly Jews from Sinai to about the mid-15th century (I think). These gems of wisedom were passed orally for centuries until early in the Diaspora, as the Jewish community became more and more dispersed, as more and more of the young became assimulated, and as fewer and fewer learned the oral traditions, also called the Oral Torah by some, the rabbis wisely cose to write the wisdom in volumes.

The first codification of the oral traditions was done by Rabbi Judah the Prince and is called the Mishna. Over the centuries since the initial codification there have been many discussions on how to best obey Torah. The record of the decisions and insight of the most learned of our ancient fathers was recorded in the margins of the Mishna section that was under discussion. These marginal records are called the Gamara. Together the Mishna and Gamara are known as Talmud.

GreenEyedLady said:
why is the Kippa a tradition?
The Kippah is a tradition because it is not commanded outright in Torah. Only the Levites were commanded to cover their heads.
As the Jews went into dispersion the wearing of the kippa grew over the centuries. There are many opinions as to the reasons - including that wearing the kippah both reminds us that we are always in the presence of G-d and of the great loss of the Temple - thus expressing and refreshing the hope and desire for the rebuilding of the Temple and for the return to a truly free and Jewish Israel.

Much more can be said and clarified on both of these questions and I leave it to the more knowledgable on this forum to clarify where I have muddied.:help:

Shalom
Shavua Tov
:D
 
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Henaynei

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simchat_torah said:
Henny.... *sniff sniff*

ignore simchatty will ya? *sniff sniff*
Not really!! OIY!! Here's a hanky!!

I am just on my sisters laptop and not with my own 'puter and programs.

I plan to give you a worthy response :p (that is the emoticon for the Bronks cheer!)

Shavua Tov!
 
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Henaynei

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simchat_torah said:
haha... I know. I was just bored.

playin games all day, cookin dinner, harassing Henaynei.... my day is full.
It is my great honor to play some small part in the will of HaShem to bring contentment and comfort to His people!!;)

Tell your DW that I hope to be actually sitting down to the puter and responding to your/her query - if G-d be willing - this evening after work and dinner. :amen:

Yom Tov
Henaynei
 
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