King of the North, Prince of the Covenant?

TribulationSigns

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You argue against the testimony of Holy Spirit.
Good Luck with that.

You are arguing against the testimony of the Holy Spirit with your FALSE INTERPRETATION. Good luck with that!

And it shows because you have not proved a historical proof we asked!
 
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TribulationSigns

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Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Both will occur at the Second Coming of Christ. Not 70AD.
 
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Jamdoc

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Matthew 24:29 is repeated in Revelation chapter 6, with the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the chapter.


Why would the characters be hiding from the wrath of the Lamb unless the Lamb is present at that point in time? Five of these same characters are found in chapter 19.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


.

I want to point out that the coming of the Lord in Matthew 24, Revelation 6, and Revelation 14, are very different from the coming in Revelation 19.

Revelation 6:12-13 echoes Matthew 24 almost perfectly, the same events preceeding represented by the horsemen, deception/false messiahs/white horse, wars and rumors of wars/red horse, famines/black horse, pestilences/pale horse, tribulations/fifth seal martyrs, cosmological signs/sixth seal signs. Revelation 6 is John's version of the Olivet discourse basically.

Compare how Jesus comes in Matthew 24, and Revelation 14, and Revelation 1 for that matter
Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Revelation 14:14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Now you might think this is the same event as Revelation 19.. but in any of those does He come on a white horse as in Revelation 19? No.
In fact, in the Revelation 6 description, what is Jesus sitting on, I'll give you a hint, it's not a horse.
Revelation 6:15-16
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

so in this sixth seal coming that sounds like Matthew 24's coming when He comes in the clouds to gather His saints, He's not on a horse, He's on a throne. The Revelation 19 coming is very different, instead of coming in the clouds He comes all the way down to earth on a white horse.

It seems like 2 separate events. 1 brings the gathering of saints followed by the wrath of God, and 1 after the wrath of God, coming down WITH His saints to finish off the beast and false prophet and their armies.

We all know the Revelation 19 coming of our Lord his clothes are dipped in blood, and He's not here to resurrect or save anyone but as a conquering king that annihilates the wicked.

Isaiah 63:1-4
63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

I take note of that year measurement of time when most people say the Day of the Lord is a single 24 hour day.
Revelation 9:5
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

I think that precludes the wrath of God being 1 24 hour day, but a year? That sounds likely, 1 single part of the wrath of God lasts 5 months.

anyway, kind of an aside since this is not specifically Daniel, though all that prophetic books and Olivet discourse I think are relevant to Daniel.
 
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parousia70

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you have not proved a historical proof we asked!

Nor can you when we ask... so whats your point?

that you give yourself a pass?

That it's ok when you can't provide historical proof of Fulfilled prophesy, but the rest of us have to?
 
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parousia70

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and then Jesus said the end of the world happens after that.

No He Didn't.
He said the end of the AGE happens after that.
Scripture is clear, the world exists forever.

The New Heavens and New Earth would have no sin and no death.
Not according to Isaiah and John.

How does Preterism reconcile that.

By taking Scripture at face value... when Isaiah Says in the new heavens and earth there WILL BE:
Birth,
Ageing,
Death,
Sinners,
Procreation...
Preterists don't claim He's Wrong the way futurists do.

When John Testifies that on the New Earth there Live Dogs, Sorcerer, and Liars just outside the city's gates, and that the Nations are still in need of continual healing, Preterists don't claim he is wrong the way futurists do..
 
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TribulationSigns

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Nor can you when we ask... so whats your point?

LOL! Really? I checked all of your posts on this thread and found that you have not even asked me for proof. You are a liar.

[/quote]that you give yourself a pass?[/quote]

Why ask me this if you could not prove proof for your false doctrine when asked.

That it's ok when you can't provide historical proof of Fulfilled prophesy, but the rest of us have to?

What are you talking about? You did not ask me to prove you anything on this thread. Once again, you are a liar.

Therefore, you remained refuted with the false interpretation that you failed to explain with proof.
 
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parousia70

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LOL! Really? I checked all of your posts on this thread and found that you have not even asked me for proof. You are a liar.

I never said it was in this thread... seems you're the liar.

You have been asked multiple times by me and others to provide historical proof of the fulfillment of biblical events you believe are fulfilled.

You never have.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I never said it was in this thread... seems you're the liar.

Irrelevant. I do not know what other thread you were talking about. Prove it! This does not give you the justification for not provide historical proof for your interpretation HERE that I asked. As long as you refused or do not know, your 70AD position remained refuted.
 
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parousia70

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Irrelevant. I do not know what other thread you were talking about. Prove it! This does not give you the justification for not provide historical proof for your interpretation HERE that I asked. As long as you refused or do not know, your 70AD position remained refuted.

When you refuse to provide exactly what you are asking for when it is asked of you, then yes, do don't deserve to be given what you refuse to reciprocate.
 
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parousia70

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Do you believe in a physical resurrection?

I believe what Paul Believes:

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 
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TribulationSigns

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When you refuse to provide exactly what you are asking for when it is asked of you, then yes, do don't deserve to be given what you refuse to reciprocate.

Nice try. You remained refuted here. Sorry!
 
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BABerean2

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By taking Scripture at face value... when Isaiah Says in the new heavens and earth there WILL BE:
Birth,
Ageing,
Death,
Sinners,
Procreation...
Preterists don't claim He's Wrong the way futurists do.

The passage below begins with the creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth, and ends with the removal of the curse.

There is no more crying in verse 19.

Therefore, verse 20 begins with a negative statement.
Everything after the word "thence" cannot be found in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

It is as if I say "There will be no more... mosquitoes, ticks, spiders... in the New Earth.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


.
 
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TribulationSigns

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DavidPT

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Matthew 24:29 is repeated in Revelation chapter 6, with the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the chapter.


Why would the characters be hiding from the wrath of the Lamb unless the Lamb is present at that point in time? Five of these same characters are found in chapter 19.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


.


You and I are on the same page with what you submitted here, thus I agree, yet this does not fully address what all I brought up. The trib of those days meant in Matthew 24:29, which are referring to verses 15-26 in that same chapter, can't begin and end in the first century, then square with what you submitted here. They too must end in the end of this age in order to be followed immediately after by the sun going dark, then the coming and gathering seen in verse 30 and 31. This means the events recorded in verses 15-26 don't belong in the first century, they belong in the end of this age.


In the event you are still not convinced, consider the following.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders(Matthew 24:24)

In the first century, leading up to 70 AD, were there great signs and wonders occurring at the time? Yes. But were they fake signs and wonders? No. They were legit and were being performed at the hands of Apostles, and not at the hands of false apostles, thus no one was trying to deceive anyone at the time via these great signs and wonders. This doesn't fit first century events unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.
 
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Jamdoc

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I believe what Paul Believes:

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Jesus was resurrected into a body that could be seen and touched. It was physical and had flesh and bone.
 
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parousia70

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