King James Version

[Julie]

Yes good question, but no answer.
So you base your beliefs, doctrine or convictions on what?

 

[Susan]

On the fact that Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose again from the grave.

Which can be found in ANY Bible, not just the KJV.

 

[Julie]

When you read the following, please notice the straining
of the tenses:<IL>


Luke 13:23 (new versions), "Are there few who are being saved?"
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;KJV, "...be saved."


II Cor. 2:15 (new versions), "are being saved."
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;KJV, "are saved."


I Cor. 1:18 (new versions), "those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved"&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;KJV, ...are saved."


Acts 15:19 (new versions) "are turning to God."
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;KJV, "turned."

&nbsp;
Luke 15:32 (new versions), "your brother was dead and has begun to live."
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;KJV, "is alive."


Acts 2:47 (new versions), "were being saved."
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;KJV, "should be saved."


2 Cor. 4:3 (new versions), "are perishing."
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;KJV, "are lost."

 

[heydeerman]

filosofer,

The Word is the revelation of Jesus Christ. Without it we cannot know Him. Our faith should not be placed in the "book" of the Bible but in the revelation that the book holds....I think we agree.

 

[heydeerman]

Julie,

You wouldnt have a book by Gail Gittlinger would you?

 

[filosofer]

You have a slight problem: there is no such thing as "new versions."

As for the specific passages you listed, they use a present participle. For example, consider

Acts 2:47 (new versions), "were being saved."
_____________ ___KJV, "should be saved."

So, how would you translate a present participle such as SWDZOMENOUS? As a subjunctive or as a wish as the KJV does? That is dynamic equivalence stretched!

Present participle "are being saved" or if following a main verb that occurs in the past tense, then "were being saved."

So also the other passages.

 

[Julie]

&nbsp;Psalm 12:6-7 says, "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Then we read in Psalm 100:5 that ". . . . his truth endureth to all generations," and Jesus said in John 17:17 that God's WORD is truth.

These words state very clearly that God's preserved word MUST be available to us today, because God PROMISED to preserve it for us. There MUST be an infallible Book somewhere.

You say, "But ALL translations are God's word, not just one." That's impossible, because the various translations contain different readings, and God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33). Besides, if all of the versions are the word of God, then where are the "corrupt" and "perverted" versions that we are warned about in II Corinthians 2:17 and Jeremiah 23:36? If everyone is innocent, then where are those who are said to be GUILTY of subtracting from and adding to the word of God (Rev. 22:18-19)? God wouldn't have warned us about Bible perversion if it wasn't going to be a reality. According to the scriptures, there must be a single Book that is the word of God, and there must be MANY which are involved in CORRUPTING the word of God.

Now, if the Authorized Version isn't the infallible word of God, then WHAT IS? There has to be a Book somewhere in "all generations" which is God's word; so what book is it?

 

[Ioustinos]

God preserved His Word in the Greek and Hebrew languages in which they were penned by the prophets and apostles of old as the Holy Spirit moved upon them.

It was those Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that we gain the ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS! The KJV could not exist without the original Greek and Hebrew



Where did God say that He would preserve His Word in 1600's English? And if there must be an infallible Bible for each generation, then why do you claim the KJV? For our generation doesn't use most of the archaic language found in the KJV. So there must be a Bible for our generation, which couldn't be the KJV for it is 400 years old! How many generations have come and gone in that period of time?

 

[filosofer]

Besides, if all of the versions are the word of God, then where are the "corrupt" and "perverted" versions that we are warned about in II Corinthians 2:17 and Jeremiah 23:36?

Three problems here:

First, the passage in 2 Cor. 2;17 does not refer to the NT, because it it had not been written yet. And the Textus Receptus (Greek textual basis for the NT of the KJV) deals only with the NT.

Second, Paul is addressing the issue of those who speak the word of God, but do so from a deceitful position and thereby "corrupt" or "peddle" the Word of God. On the contrary, Paul and his companions faithfully speak the truth of God's Word (the OT and the received proclamation of Jesus Christ).

Third, if you follow your logic that it refers to the written NT, then the KJV does not fit Paul's criteria, because the referent would be to Greek texts, not English translations.

 

[Julie]

Now, if the Authorized Version isn't the infallible word of God, then WHAT IS? There has to be a Book somewhere in "all generations" which is God's word; so what book is it?

 

[heydeerman]

The NIV...................just kidding.

Julie,

Obviously you feel very fervent about this topic. It is good that you have the confidence in Gods Word that you do. It would not benefit anyone to change youre mind on this for you. Keep in mind that there are others who have the same confidence in Gods Word that you have but include the modern translations. Myself included.

 

[Susan]

Amen. I believe the Bible can be translated in many ways that do no violence to the text.

 

[filosofer]

There has to be a Book somewhere in "all generations" which is God's word; so what book is it?

There are three things have been referred to as "the Word of God"

1. Jesus Christ - John 1:1, 14

2. The proclaimed Word - 2 Thes. 2:13 (this is derived from and based upon # 1)

3. The written Word - 2 Peter 3:15-16, 1 John 1:1-4 (this is derived from # 1 and # 2)

Thus, we find that the believers had the Word (proclaimed) all along. This is true in the Old Testament era, when writing was scarce, and especially in the Pentateuchal era.

This was also true in the NT era. Until the first NT writings were put on vellum, etc. (at least until AD 45, and in most cases until AD 100), the only word that most people had was the proclaimed Word. Notice that in Acts the proclamation of the Word was determinative.

 

[Julie]

Good posts and points filosofer and heydeerman, &nbsp;it has&nbsp;been fun debating with you.&nbsp;&nbsp;I have a LOT of respect for you both for you beliefs and stand on the words of God.&nbsp; Forgive me if I have acted anything &nbsp;less than lady like.

Julie

&nbsp;

***********************************

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[filosofer]

Thank you, for your persistence and forcing the issues with your questions, because it causes us all to wrestle with "what does the text say?" It isn't a case that someone wins or loses, but rather that we grow in the knowledge and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pet. 3:18).

&nbsp;

Blessings on your continued study of the Word.

 

[Julie]

We have all heard this but know that there is no such thing as "THE GREEK TEXT." There never has been. There are about thirty Greek texts: Mill, Walton, Fell, Tischendorf, Griesbach, Semler, Hug, Lachmann, Nestle, Aland, Metzger, Erasmus, Colinaeus, Elzevir, Alford, Souter, Beza, etc.). But the term is a "historic position" because it suggests, without SAYING it, that the ONE ("THE") true Greek text is in the hands of a depraved Bible critic who is altering your King James Bible.

 

[Divinus]

I find the position of KJV onlyism to be very bizarre. I like the KJV, personally, and I use it quite often, but I wouldn't say everyone has to use it! (and in any case I'm not allowed to use it in class)
Some of the arguments put forward for KJVO beliefs are quite bizarre. I once saw a site which said (actually I think it might have been an article by Ruckman) that the reason the KJV is the only Word of God is that it is the "authorised version". Which always makes me wonder who they think authorised it and for what purpose?

IMO, if you like the KJV and prefer to use it, then by all means use it. But we don't have to, we can read other versions if we so choose. It strikes me that KJV onlyism has a limited life-span - as the English language continues to change and develop we will come to a point where first, the KJV becomes as difficult to read as Middle English, and then as hard as Old English - by which time it will be inaccessible to most people. Where then for KJVOs?

One question I've always had, too, is that there are some updated language versions of the KJV - KJV2000 for example (I think thats its name), but you never see KJVOs using them, endorsing them, or actually following through on their position that if you update the language you will still have the Word in English. Any ideas as to why?

-Divinus

 

[Susan]

Because they believe the 1611 English is THE inspired language as far as I know.

Which makes me wonder: why don't they go all the way and speak 1611 English rather than that *abomination* called modern English hehe

 

[The Simple Plan]

I was once&nbsp;a "KJV onlyist" (is there such a term). Indeed I was worried about the gnostic influences of the minority texts used by other Bibles&nbsp;as suggested by many authors.

The &lt;b&gt;KJV&lt;/b&gt; is still my favourite. I suppose I like the language of the "Rennaisance". I find it easier to remember those "promise texts" and Psalms.

My other Bible is the &lt;b&gt;NRSV&lt;/b&gt; and often when running youth bible studies, especially with new believers or unchurced I like the &lt;b&gt;Youth Bible&lt;/b&gt;.

It is important to note that if we advise people to read many versions it can often be confusing.!!I prefer to avise a minimum of two at the most. Historically for comparative, linguistic and doctrinal purposes this has worked a treat for many.

Finally God can reveal his purpose in any Bible, so let's not get too hung up one version

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[Julie]

The point is having one final authority that you and I are going to obey as Gods words.&nbsp; I have mine.&nbsp;

&nbsp;Some have it in many different "Bibles".&nbsp; Some have faith is a lost pile of originals no one has ever seen.&nbsp; Most people are interested in doing what they want instead of what is pleasing to God, having different authorities lets them get around the final words of God.

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Psalm 119:165
Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.