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King James Version

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Gold Dragon

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BjBarnett said:
Well theres a reason that we Catholics are think highly of the Vulgate and thats because the church decreed it as being kinda the "base" translation. is that in a similiar way the same way for the KJV onlylist? if so then i totally understand the logic.

Yes. KJVOs share a similar rationale to those Catholics who were oppose to the use of bibles other than the Latin Vulgate.

Street Preacher said:
I could be wrong, but the Catholics are Vulgate onlyists, it is considered the only 'official' mss to make translations from. If I prove to be unhelpful, perhaps they could answer quesitons on preservation...it may be similar reasoning...may not be.

One of the first non-Vulgate versions that the Catholic church authorized was the english Douay-Rheims Bible. Currently most english speaking Catholics use either the New American Bible (US) or the New Jerusalem Bible (Europe and non-US), which have both been authorized by the Vatican. I believe the New Revised Standard Bible is also authorized by the Vatican but I'm not so sure about that.
 
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SumTinWong

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TwinCrier said:
And moderm bible publishers sure seem to love money.
I don't think they love it anymore than you do. They work for a living and deserve to be paid. The people who spend countless hours translating the Bible from the original languages have to support families as well. Do I think the publishers over charge for the most part? Yes I do but I am sure even the KJ people got paid for their effort. Now the reason why the KJV is free is there is no one left around to collect royalties or to collect the on copyright. If there were, they would.
 
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TwinCrier

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Heatherondo said:
Well i had a friend named Wendy who went to (baptist) seminary JUST to learn teh languages to translate Gods word from its original language do she could know His word better. First thing she learned wast KJV was the furthest from the original test, that king james ordered things skewed to his own lifestyle.

wow what an eye opener!

but, i also liken reading KJV to an english only speaking person trying to understand a german or french translation. Its a language no longer spoken. No one would expect you to read and understand a language you do not speak.

I use NAS and NIV.
NIv i understand teh most.

KJV only people tend to scream that NIV added stuff. what NIV added was what KJV took out some NIVs have notations as to what was "added" and why.

Just because a translation has been around ,longer does not make it truer.

I think those who are hung up on KJV only are forgetting Gods word in any language is Gods word and will speak to them, and that its a form of legalism, that someone fown the line lacking understanding declared KJV only and their congregations followed because he said so....

You cant listen to pastor so in so or brother so in so over God.... and unfortunately that is pretty common among christians and church goers.
They are men they are flawed and they can be very wrong and very decieved and lead others astray.
as always,
JMO not meant to offend anyone
It is not legalism to want to read God's word and not a paraphrase. King James did not more than give his permission to the translators and protect them from physical harm during the process.
Speaking of EYE OPENERS, I beg you on bended knee to read the eye opener: http://www.scionofzion.com/eyeopener.htm

Please any who doubts the KJV please just read that one page. I could change your life!
 
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TwinCrier

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Uncle Bud said:
I don't think they love it anymore than you do. They work for a living and deserve to be paid. The people who spend countless hours translating the Bible from the original languages have to support families as well. Do I think the publishers over charge for the most part? Yes I do but I am sure even the KJ people got paid for their effort. Now the reason why the KJV is free is there is no one left around to collect royalties or to collect the on copyright. If there were, they would.
No, the KJV translators could not collect royalties on the translation because it is a translation, you cannot copyright something written by another. The revisions change words in order to obtain copyright. If it's REALLY just about the thees and thous, why not just change them to the word you? Corrupting God's word for profit is wrong in my opinion.... of course most modern translators admittedly do not belive the bible is anything more than an ancient faerie tale anyhow. You should read what they say of their own work.
 
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Gold Dragon

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TwinCrier said:
It was translated by (don't quote me on this) about 60 men where many of the new versions are revised by a handful of people, many not even professing Christians. At least two of the people on the NIV translation comittee were homosexual.

I won't quote you on this, but for future reference ....

Bible Researcher - King James Version History
...
Arrangements for this version were completed by the appointment of fifty-four learned men
...
Only forty-seven of the men appointed for this work are known to have engaged in it.
...
To the first company, at Westminster (ten in number), was assigned the Old Testament as far as 2 Kings; the second company (seven in number) had the Epistles. The first company at Cambridge (numbering eight) had 2 Chronicles to Ecclesiastes; the second company (numbering seven) had the Apocryphal books. To the first Oxford company (seven in number) were assigned the prophetical books, from Isaiah to Malachi; to the second (eight in number) were given the four Gospels, the Acts and the Apocalypse, or Revelation.
Bible Researcher - NIV Committee on Bible Translation

In January 2002 the NIV Committee on Bible Translation was composed of:

<15 Names>

NIV Tranlators and Editors

The following list of NIV translators and editors is reproduced from the list sent to me by the International Bible Society in September 1993. The list does not always give the church affiliation of the persons listed. In a few cases there is no institutional affiliation given, but only a city of residence. Presumably, the names listed are all those who participated in the translation of the original NIV (1973-1978) or of the revision of 1984. Many of the people listed here are known to have had only a very minor role in the translation. -- M.D.M

<104 Names which include some of the 15 above>

Literary Critics and Other Consultants

<14 Names>

Bible Researcher - New American Standard Bible

Original NASB translators

<39 Names>

The 1995 Revision

<15 Names>

Lockman Foundation : Translators of the NASB

NCCUSA : About the NRSV
The ecumenical NRSV Bible Translation Committee consists of thirty men and women who are among the top scholars in America today. They come from Protestant denominations, the Roman Catholic church, and the Greek Orthodox Church. The committee also includes a Jewish scholar.

The NRSV probably isn't the first (or last) choice of many Baptists, but I find it to be a useful version that I use occassionally to get a reading from a more liberal Christian perspective.
 
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Gold Dragon

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TwinCrier said:
No, the KJV translators could not collect royalties on the translation because it is a translation, you cannot copyright something written by another. The revisions change words in order to obtain copyright. If it's REALLY just about the thees and thous, why not just change them to the word you? Corrupting God's word for profit is wrong in my opinion.... of course most modern translators admittedly do not belive the bible is anything more than an ancient faerie tale anyhow. You should read what they say of their own work.

The translators were not paid because Kings can do that sort of thing. ;)

Zondervan - KJV
...
King James appointed six panels of translators (about fifty men) to revise and translate assigned portions of the Old Testament, Apocrypha (which was at the time included in all Bibles), and the New Testament. The completed work was reviewed by a group of twelve, consisting of two men from each panel, after which the work was sent to bishops and leading churchmen for approval. Among the translators were some of the finest scholars of the day. The revisers/translators, while not paid for their efforts, were granted free room and board.
 
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Gold Dragon

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TwinCrier said:
of course most modern translators admittedly do not belive the bible is anything more than an ancient faerie tale anyhow. You should read what they say of their own work.

Please. Slander like this is not appropriate.

The translators of the NIV and NASB were conservative evangelicals who I would guess hold to the statements made by the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy that is generally agreed to by most evangelicals.

I know you are referring to Westcott and Hort who initiated the field of textual criticism, and KJVOs have written much slander against these two biblical scholars who were undoubtedly more liberal in their theology than the NIV and NASB translators. However, even they did not view the bible as ancient fairy tales.
 
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SumTinWong

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TwinCrier said:
No, the KJV translators could not collect royalties on the translation because it is a translation, you cannot copyright something written by another.
What? The original text is in this instance is the Textus Recepticus (or received text) a greek text, and the translation of that greek text into the english language by your own hand is in fact an original copyrightable work and is protected by copyright laws.

The KJ translators work was copyrightable by todays law, and by rights they could have charged for the translation and collected royalties.

The revisions change words in order to obtain copyright.
The Revised Standard Version, NKJV, MKJV, and KJV2000 are examples of that & I agree they do.

If it's REALLY just about the thees and thous, why not just change them to the word you?
Do you realize that the KJV that you read today is actually that? The original you would be hard pressed to understand. People did change the thees and thous to make it more readable as the time went on. The newer translations draw upon more sources rather than just one which is the TR mentioned above.

Corrupting God's word for profit is wrong in my opinion....
Of course you have yet to give an example of God's word, and the corruption contained therin. So is it your contention that the KJV is God's word alone?

of course most modern translators admittedly do not belive the bible is anything more than an ancient faerie tale anyhow.
Really? Most modern translators believe it is a fairy tale? Evidence, please.
 
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Gold Dragon

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Uncle Bud said:
I don't think they love it anymore than you do. They work for a living and deserve to be paid. The people who spend countless hours translating the Bible from the original languages have to support families as well. Do I think the publishers over charge for the most part? Yes I do but I am sure even the KJ people got paid for their effort. Now the reason why the KJV is free is there is no one left around to collect royalties or to collect the on copyright. If there were, they would.

Around 1611 when the KJV was first written, copyright laws were non-existent and something known as "letter's patents" were granted by Kings to some printers and authors.

Since the author of the KJV was seen as King James, I doubt he would have given any patents to the translators who were simply doing a service for the Kingdom of England as loyal subjects.

Wikipedia - History of Copyright

Prehistory of copyright
The origins of copyright systems are generally placed in the practice of various monarchs in granting "letters patent", arbitrary grants of monopoly over a particular practice or trade. Such grants were an invaluable source of power for rulers who possessed much theoretical authority, but little cash (indeed, the abuse of monopolies by the early Stuarts was a major factor leading to the English civil war).

In the two centuries following the invention of the printing press, such grants were given periodically to printers (and occasionally authors) with regard to particular works.

In Britain, the culmination of this practice was the Licensing Act of 1662, which granted a monopoly on the entirety of English publishing to the Stationers' Company of London (the quid pro quo for this grant was censorship of heretical and seditious material). The Stationer's company had developed its own inter-publisher system for regulating competition, now known as Stationer's copyright, which was effectively a private copyright system made enforceable by the Stationers' monopoly.
...
 
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Gold Dragon

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TwinCrier said:
No, the KJV translators could not collect royalties on the translation because it is a translation, you cannot copyright something written by another.

In Australia, who I assume derived much of their laws from Britain, a translator needs to get the permission of the original author to produce the translation. However, the translation itself is the copyright of the translator.

Arts Law Centre for Australia
...
Giving Permission to Translate Your Work

If you give someone permission to translate your story, poem or song lyrics into another language, the translator will generally own copyright in the translation, unless you agree otherwise in writing. However, the translator’s rights only extend to the translation and not the original work. You continue to hold copyright in the work you created, and the translator will have a range of rights in his or her work.
...
 
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SumTinWong

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Gold Dragon said:
Around 1611 when the KJV was first written, copyright laws were non-existent and something known as "letter's patents" were granted by Kings to some printers and authors.
My point was, if they were translating the document today, but thanks GD. :)
 
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LostnFound

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AARRRGGGGGGG, I can't read anymore!!! My brain is on fire! TOO MUCH INFORMATION!

Ok, never too much information. It's going to take me a while to wade through all these links, but I'm grateful for them!!!

I also am one who wants the Inspired Word of God in language I can understand. I don't want some new creation, that adds or omits anything. I just want to be able to comprehend what I have just read without having a PHD in linguistics.
 
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AJ

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TwinCrier said:
Ok, Money is the root of all evil.
AMEN! :)

I use KJV, NKJV, NIV, NLT and The Message at various times. I personally like the NKJV quite a bit. My study bible is NIV... I don't own a NASB, but I think it is also a good translation.
 
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Gold Dragon

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LostnFound said:
AARRRGGGGGGG, I can't read anymore!!! My brain is on fire! TOO MUCH INFORMATION!

Here is some more fuel for the fire. ;)

Ancient Manuscripts
Modern translations are done using the entire collection of Greek and Hebrew documents and fragments of the bible that have been preserved. Obviously none of them are the "originals" that were penned by Moses, Paul, etc. but compared to other ancient documents, the bible is one of the most well preserved documents in human history in terms of the age and number of preserved manuscripts.

Some examples of these manuscripts are:
1. Dead Sea Scrolls (2nd century BC - 1st century AD)
2. Codex Vaticanus (4th century AD)
3. Codex Sinaiticus (4th century AD)
4. Codex Alexandrinus (5th century AD)
5. Masoretic Text (9th century AD)

It should be added that none of the above were available at the time of Erasmus, the compiler of the Textus Receptus, the source materials for the KJV who relied on manuscripts dated from the 12th century and beyond.

Greek and Hebrew Compilations
Granted some of the documents and fragments have discrepancies between them and biblical scholars generally try to go with the older documents, although there is an element of decision making that does need to be done. Most modern translations use the Greek and Hebrew compilation primarily done by Eberhard Nestle, Erwin Nestle and Kurt Aland initially in 1897 with the latest revision in 1993 which is currently published by the United Bible Society. Notable bibles that use the United Bible Society versions as a source are the NIV, NASB, NRSV. Another significant compilation was the one used in the translation of the KJV called the Textus Receptus which was created by Erasmus beginning in 1516 with his final edition in 1535. Revisions are made as older manuscripts are discovered and the editors have a better grasp of the original languages or they change their mind on a word selection because of new evidence.

Translating into the modern language
Once a Greek and Hebrew compilation has been chosen as the source material, a translation into the modern language must be made. At this point, biblical scholars have many more choices to make in terms of word selection because as anyone with experience in multiple languages knows, one word in one language may not have an equivalent in another language or may have many equivalents depending on the context. And the grammar and sentence structure between languages is usually so different that a completely literal sequential translation would result in gibberish. This is especially true the further languages are from each other linguistically and historically. The decision process of selecting the appropriate words/phrases in most modern translations and the KJV was done by large groups of biblical scholars who agreed on a translation philosophy. They discussed and debated about the best translation for each verse within their philosophical framework. Some translations are done by individuals.

Literal "Word-for-Word" Translations
A decision has to be made by translators regarding the "literalness" of a translation because highly literal translations, while being more faithful to the structure and words of the source materials, tend to be more difficult for modern readers to comprehend since they are not familiar with the language and sentence structure of the original language. Although an element of interpretation is necessarily, the aim of literal translations is to minimize this. English examples of more literal translations are the NASB, KJV and NRSV. I find literal translations highly useful for indepth bible studies.

Dynamic Equivalence "Thought-for-Thought" Translations
On the other hand "freer" translation philosophies allow the translator to diverge more from the literal wording and sentence structure to produce a translation more easily understood by modern readers. It requires more interpretation by the translator but still tries to remain faithful to source material. The NIV is an example of this. I find free translations to be useful for general church audiences who many not be very experienced with in-depth bible studies, but I would recommend a literal translation as they get more involved in bible studies.

Paraphrase Translations
Finally paraphrase translations make very little attempts to follow the literal wording of their sources and the primary aim is to relate to the audience of their time with language and idioms of the time. These translations allow the bible to become similar to easy reading for those not interested in serious bible study but often diverge significantly from source material. Examples of this are The Message and the Living Bible. I find that paraphase translations are useful for young people and newer Christians, although I would always recommend a free or literal translation to go along with reading a paraphrase translation.

Theological leanings
The theological leanings of the translators also has an impact in word selection depending on their theological view. Generally, NIV and NASB were translated by evangelicals while the NRSV was translated by theologically more liberal translators. The KJV was translated by Anglicans in the 1600s with contributions from both conformist and puritan scholars.
 
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Gold Dragon

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LostnFound said:
I don't want some new creation, that adds or omits anything.

Regarding the "additions" in the KJV or "ommissions" in modern versions, here is a link to all the major variations between them and which manuscripts support which reading. As you will see, almost all of these variations are very minor word changes with no doctrinal impacts on the verses. Modern biblical scholars explain many of the major changes as possibly being margin notes by copyists for clarification (like the footnotes in most bibles these days) that eventually got incorporated into the text.

A Student's Guide to New Testament Textual Variants

An Introduction to Textual Criticism

The original writings of the New Testament no longer exist. They have been destroyed by the processes of time. But the New Testament has been preserved in God's providence by copies being made, first of the originals and then later copies of the copies and so on through the centuries. The earliest complete copy of the New Testament that we have was made about 300 years after the New Testament was written, although manuscripts of some parts have been found that were copied less than 100 years after the originals were written. For the first fifteen hundred years of copying, copies had to be made by hand. This means that all the types of errors that can creep into handwritten copies can be found in the manuscripts of the New Testament. Fortunately we have enough copies to establish what the original read like with a good degree of certainty. This is the task of textual criticism: to examine the manuscripts and determine what is original text and what are copying errors.
 
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Gold Dragon

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Street Preacher said:
I'm a TR onlyist

Just an FYI that there are 17 versions of the Textus Receptus. Link

Erasmus 1516
Erasmus 1519
Erasmus 1522
Erasmus 1527
Erasmus 1535
Estienne (Stephanus) 1546
Estienne (Stephanus) 1549
Estienne (Stephanus) 1550 (source for 1611 KJV)
Estienne (Stephanus) 1551 (source for 1611 KJV)
Beza 1565
Beza 1582
Beza 1589
Beza 1598 (source for 1611 KJV)
Elzevir 1624
Elzevir 1633 (first time it was called the Textus Receptus)
Elzevir 1641
Scrivener 1894

And there are four editions of the KJV after the 1611, mostly to correct printing errors.
1629
1638
1762
1769 (KJV edition used most today and first exclusion of deuterocanonicals/apocrypha)

Wikipedia - King James Version
...
Eventually four different editions of the King James Version were produced in 1629, 1638, 1762, and 1769. It is the 1769 edition which is most commonly cited as the King James Version (KJV).
...
The original printing of the King James Version included the "Apocrypha", so named in the text.
...
From approximately 1769, many editions have omitted this section, and the most common contemporary editions rarely include them.
...
The original printing also included a number of variant readings and alternative translations of some passages; most current printings omit these.
 
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Gold Dragon

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Gold Dragon said:
Around 1611 when the KJV was first written, copyright laws were non-existent and something known as "letter's patents" were granted by Kings to some printers and authors.

Since the author of the KJV was seen as King James, I doubt he would have given any patents to the translators who were simply doing a service for the Kingdom of England as loyal subjects.

For more detail on the copyright status of the KJV....

Wikipedia - King James Version
...
Copyright status

In Great Britain, the AV is subject to a perpetual Crown Copyright held by the British government. This is because the printing of the KJV was originally covered by Letters Patent which means that to this day it comes under the Crown prerogative section of copyright law in the United Kingdom. It was protected by this means due to its status there as an official document of the established Church of England. The British government licenses all printings of the text in Great Britain, typically by designating one printer as the authorised publisher; other printers must obtain a sublicence from that one.

The universities of Oxford and Cambridge also possess the right to print editions of the Bible, and many English printings are issued or licensed by the university presses. Annotated study Bibles escape the monopoly by being labelled as "Bible commentaries", and can also use the text.

The Letters Patent apply in Scotland, where the Scottish Bible Board licenses all uses of the AV text. In Wales, all uses of the KJV text are licensed though Cambridge. Elsewhere in the world, the text of the King James Version has long since become a part of the public domain.
 
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TwinCrier

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LostnFound said:
AARRRGGGGGGG, I can't read anymore!!! My brain is on fire! TOO MUCH INFORMATION!

Ok, never too much information. It's going to take me a while to wade through all these links, but I'm grateful for them!!!

I also am one who wants the Inspired Word of God in language I can understand. I don't want some new creation, that adds or omits anything. I just want to be able to comprehend what I have just read without having a PHD in linguistics.
I only ask you to look at one page on behalf of KJVO believers: http://www.scionofzion.com/eyeopener.htm
 
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Gold Dragon

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TwinCrier said:
If just one publisher would come out with a new translation, just one, that they aren't going to copyright and charge for printing, I might give it a look.

The NET Bible is one such bible.
The World English Bible is another one.
 
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