Kim Davis

[rusmeister]

In general we have a problem when EO disagree on something, and the problem of non-EO joining in on disagreement is that world views and understandings actually differ, making it more likely that people will argue past each other from different premises.

That's why I ask that this thread be moved to St Justin's sub-forum, where we all understand that we may not share common premises and understandings. Here in the main forum the general assumption is that we do, and it makes argument here more acrimonious.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

You're in one of the confessional forums. It's a perfectly fine question to ask, since you're new here. As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong, EO posters) all may post here so long as they do not attempt to teach against the faith represented by the particular forum that they are on. It didn't really seem like Rus was accusing you of doing that, so this kind of reaction is a little...strong.

No this is frustration at what I've seen many Christians do in the past. You are either not Christian enough or they hide behind some wall of that no one can reach them and I'm fairly sick of it. Usually it is some scripture they chery pick that they've stretched way out of proportion in order to fit their reasoning and If you doubt them then you just need to read more and question them less.

 

[rusmeister]

It's not an issue of "not being Christian enough". (Heck, if anything, I've been saying that, in a limited sense, Davis IS "Christian enough".)

The real issue is unshared assumptions and understandings. If, for example, you think salvation hinges entirely, for everyone, on saying the sinner's prayer once sincerely, then anything even touching on salvation is going to be misunderstood. You will be saying some things about it, we will be saying other things, you will disagree, and it won't be clear why the disagreement exists. And that's one of a hundred issues on which we may and probably differ. And they probably won't be the topic of discussion, but as we say things that touch on them, we will encounter disagreement, because all of these things are ultimately connected.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Here's my feeble opinion on all this, for what it's worth....

Just like with Republicans and Democrats, I'm pretty disappointed in this whole affair. Why don't Republicans get elected? Well, generally they're preaching the right message morally, but they're living a hypocritical lifestyle that contradicts their values and thus totally undermines their credibility. For example, a fiercely anti-gay senator gets caught in an airport trying to "give favors" to other men in a bathroom stall at said airport. Kind of kills credibility, doesn't it?

Same with this Kim Davis gal. She's a passionate 'warrior' against sodomic marriage. Is that a good thing? You bet.

But look at her THREE divorces!!? She's been married four times!? Why on Earth? There are a lot of people who would question---what is worse? Three divorces? Or anal pseudo-marriage? Well, if forced, I guess the divorces, but I must say, Our Lord went out of His way to condemn divorce. I still think the Orthodox Church is too liberal on divorce. The Lord really called out the sinful remarried divorce in the Gospel. He makes it clear that divorce was a pitiful concession to weakness given by Moses, and never really God's will at all. He tells her she is really, in reality, still married to her first husband living in sin!?

So, if Jesus calls out a woman for multiple divorces, chances are He'd harangue Kim Davis! She's just as bad with her four marriages!?

So, this gets down to CREDIBILITY. She's not credible. I'm supposed to get all worked up seeing her as a champion against sin, but the truth is she's a champion against the sins she doesn't partake in, quiet in others.

I wonder if she'd have been ok with the county clerk refusing to grant her three divorce filings because that clerk was Catholic opposed to divorce? Would evangelicals or other groups have cared about the divorces? 1? 2? 3?

People just lack credibility these days, and I think a certain amount of credibility needs to be there for trust and respect and validity to be absorbed by the public. Sure she's correct not to play ball with sodomy, but like I said, credibility is lacking and eye-rolling by most folks is well-deserved.

 

[rusmeister]

Just a consideration on any Christian's past: I think it only relevant to bring up past errors and wrongdoing if they haven't repented; if they've indicated in one way or another that they'd do it again. Frankly I have not seen the slightest indication that Davis now thinks divorce a good option. She may, but we honestly don't know. On the contrary, I see evidence of a religious conversion and desire to repent in what little I know.
We might as well say Zacchaeus, or Paul had no credibility because of their pasts. So yes, in order for us to especially admire someone like her, I'd agree on credibility. As it is, right now, I urge everyone to think how this insanity is going to march into our own lives and workplaces. (Mine last of all, perhaps, but I think Russia is only buying a decade or so of respite.)

 

[jckstraw72]

and the woman at the well is St. Photini

 

[Jutta2]

In the German media have also been reports.
Mrs. Davis was an employee of the city. She hadaccordance with the judgment of the SC, the duty, to issue a license. When they explained to unwilling for religious reasons, she wasn't entitled to prevent any colleagues about it. And that she did. She put her religious beliefs about the ruling of the Supreme Court. But no one is above the law!

 

[Jutta2]

double standards, much ?

In the LDS is also this, as it is called here, "double standards". As grumbling against women, homosexuals and critics, but somehow "forget" many cases of child abuse, spousal abuse, and "lies in the name of God". In my eyes, are the hypocrites.
By the way, this Mrs. Davies was married and divorced several times, according to a report by a German television station.
She is against homosexuals, but apparently she loves weddings.

 

[buzuxi02]

Why in the world is this on german television? Don't the secularists know that protestants do not view marriage as sacramental and most of their sects allow as many divorces and remarriages as they want?
On a side note the entire concept of civil marriages are disgusting to me, I have more respect for people shacking up, atleast they are not putting money first and see the dystopian charade for what it is.

 

[RDKirk]

When I look at the witness of the Christian martyrs, I see the people we most venerate doing...what she has done, and not what you prescribe. When I read the hagiographies, I don't read "St So-and-so stepped aside and let someone else conduct the sacrifice." I read "St So-and-so loudly denounced the sacrifices, and refused to permit them in (wherever he was)", and was arrested, etc."

I need some more specifics about that. Which martyrs refused to leave their government positions when the government was willing to let them go their own way?

 

[RDKirk]

Why in the world is this on german television? Don't the secularists know that protestants do not view marriage as sacramental and most of their sects allow as many divorces and remarriages as they want?
On a side note the entire concept of civil marriages are disgusting to me, I have more respect for people shacking up, atleast they are not putting money first and see the dystopian charade for what it is.

So why do you want the government involved at all?

 

[buzuxi02]

I dont, I've been arguing for the abolition of government mandated romance for years. Most of my descendants have never had a civil marriage, none of my grandparents ever did.

 

[HonestTruth]

In the LDS is also this, as it is called here, "double standards". As grumbling against women, homosexuals and critics, but somehow "forget" many cases of child abuse, spousal abuse, and "lies in the name of God". In my eyes, are the hypocrites.
By the way, this Mrs. Davies was married and divorced several times, according to a report by a German television station.
She is against homosexuals, but apparently she loves weddings.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees (religious hypocrites) more than anyone else. If he was here today, he would condemn the actions of the right wing television evangelist types and the politicians who hide themselves in their cloaks of ''moral'' self righteousness.

 

[truefiction1]

...

 

[gzt]

I dont, I've been arguing for the abolition of government mandated romance for years. Most of my descendants have never had a civil marriage, none of my grandparents ever did.

...because they were a part of a state church.

 

[buzuxi02]

No, it was based on the Ottomon millet system where each confessional community ran their own affairs. Its still in use in Israel and Lebanon. For example this is from the Lebanese Embassy:

"Those wishing to have a civil marriage must marry outside the country.
Marriage Information | Beirut, Lebanon - Embassy of the United States"

 

[rusmeister]

I need some more specifics about that. Which martyrs refused to leave their government positions when the government was willing to let them go their own way?

Deliberately misunderstand and twist my words if you want. I have nothing to say to that. I never come to TAW to argue with non-Orthodox Christians, anyway.

 

[jckstraw72]

the martyrs could have just left the empire too

 

[dzheremi]

No, it was based on the Ottomon millet system where each confessional community ran their own affairs. Its still in use in Israel and Lebanon. For example this is from the Lebanese Embassy:

"Those wishing to have a civil marriage must marry outside the country.
Marriage Information | Beirut, Lebanon - Embassy of the United States"

This is the case in all of the Middle East and North Africa, unless there are some glaring exceptions somewhere that I am unaware of. Egypt certainly does not have civil marriage, either. The idea of civil marriage is a Western idea. Among non-MENA Muslim-majority nations, apparently Malaysia allows civil marriage for Christians only (?!), while Afghanistan of all places allows it for foreigners only (this is also the case in Kuwait and Bahrain, two of the relatively more 'liberal' Gulf states with large Christian minorities, primarily of Indian/Asian extraction).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Jesus condemned the Pharisees (religious hypocrites) more than anyone else. If he was here today, he would condemn the actions of the right wing television evangelist types and the politicians who hide themselves in their cloaks of ''moral'' self righteousness.

indeed He would, right there with the left for fighting for things that are Antichrist while calling it Christian. can we take the politics somewhere else please?