Kid's Corporal Punishment - a Risk to Mental Health

[keith99]

Is it just that physical abuse is now being recorded in cases where it would not have been, previously?

That appears to be the case. With the trend starting in 1987! That is well before 2005 when the anti smacking law was passed.

Rates of child abuse

The term ‘child abuse’ includes acts of physical violence, sexual abuse and emotional abuse as well as child neglect. These acts have not always been seen as unacceptable. What parents and caregivers may or may not lawfully do has changed over time. It is hard to measure ...

teara.govt.nz

 

[Carl Emerson]

Is it just that physical abuse is now being recorded in cases where it would not have been, previously?

No - I mean real serious harm to children.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think such an assertion needs some supporting citation which would point towards the truth of this and also demonstrate some causation of the one by the other.

My indicator to support this assertion is the increase in hospital admissions of children with physical injury or deaths.

The other factor is the extreme and increasing levels of teenage suicide in New Zealand since the anti-smacking bill was passed.

Forgive me for not supplying citations, I am under the pump and pressed for time.

 

[timothyu]

How does the system treat children in schools, child services, law enforcement and the like by comparison?

 

[Larniavc]

But I don't agree with the reasoning and generalization that corporal punishment "risks children's mental health".

But the evidence posted in this very thread supports the hypothesis that it does.

 

[Larniavc]

I value discipline; I think all of us here do. I don't need that Old Book to tell me.

I think discipline which relies on assault is ineffective. Behaviour improves when corporal punishment is replaced by other strategies. A system of rewards and privileges to encourage good behaviour is a better plan. That is the way it is done here even in our prisons.

Agreed. I've raised my son to be a well behaved boy who will always push the boundaries but knows exactly when he has pushed too far because I've been very patient and consistent with managing his behaviour.

I've never raised my voice to him let alone my hand, belt or rod.

 

[Larniavc]

No - I mean real serious harm to children.

Evidence please.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes of course but then what is now regarded as abuse is something different today.

And quite rightly so. As our understanding of what treatment in childhood will result in lasting trauma has developed, we have been willing to take that into account in our legal frameworks around abuse.

The rest of your post is your usual bemoaning of the world today and how evil recent social changes are, but it has nothing to do with either abuse or corporal punishment.

Proverbs speaks pretty clearly of the value of discipline

Indeed. But abuse is not discipline.

@Carl Emerson, if you won't supply evidence, and others are supplying evidence which contradicts your claims, then I'm going to consider your claims discredited.

 

[Bradskii]

Proverbs speaks pretty clearly of the value of discipline

As does Matthew 15:4

 

[Bradskii]

The other factor is the extreme and increasing levels of teenage suicide in New Zealand since the anti-smacking bill was passed.

Global warming has become worse as well. We should start beating more children to help save the planet. A shame the grandkids aren't over until the weekend.

 

[Sors]

I tried to actually read the study linked in one of the articles, but it cost 18 bucks so aint happening. Did a bit of a research on Australian Catholic University and you couldn't be much more biased. (That doesn't mean they are wrong, just that they are going to present the findings in a way to support their claims). I also saw this quote in the first article "The study also took into account other harmful behaviours in the home, including abuse."

My guess is there is some correlation = causation arguments going on, but not spending 18 bucks. Anyway, I have my opinion on the whole spanking thing, but without looking at some serious statistical analysis and validation on how they collected this data, I aint buying the premise.

 

[Occams Barber]

I tried to actually read the study linked in one of the articles, but it cost 18 bucks so aint happening. Did a bit of a research on Australian Catholic University and you couldn't be much more biased. (That doesn't mean they are wrong, just that they are going to present the findings in a way to support their claims). I also saw this quote in the first article "The study also took into account other harmful behaviours in the home, including abuse."

My guess is there is some correlation = causation arguments going on, but not spending 18 bucks. Anyway, I have my opinion on the whole spanking thing, but without looking at some serious statistical analysis and validation on how they collected this data, I aint buying the premise.

Here's a 35-page review of several hundred studies on corporal punishment of children - it's free.

Enjoy.

https://endcorporalpunishment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Research-effects-full-working-paper-2021.pdf

OB

 

[stevevw]

This is self-contradictory. If that mum hit a stranger with the same - or less - force it would be assault. That is what I mean be magical thinking.

Then you need to answer whether a couple of open hand slaps on the backside within a measures discipline explaining why the child was smacked is the same or different to the unmeasured and uncontrolled hitting a child causing physical marks. Is there a difference.

So lets get some context. If a mum or dad playing league hit the opponent with their shoulder under the ribs when tackling and winded the other person, may even break a rib or two. That is not assualt. If a women boxer hits another and knocks them out that is not assualt. There are plenty of examples where people hit each other and its not assualt. Just slapping someone is not necessarily assualt.

It seems your view is not shared by everyone who don't think a couple of measured and controlled open hand slaps to the backside by a loving mother is assault. The majority of parents in most Western nations think its OK and that should be taken into consideration as a reflection of what society actually believes and not what some academic in a high tower studying Critical theories believes.

It seems studies have not seperated out those who slapped kids on the backside with an open hand causing no physical harm to those who abused their kids with unmeasured hitting that causes physical marks.

The project appeared to be the first long-term study in the world to separate out those who had merely been smacked with an open hand.
Preliminary analysis showed that those who were merely smacked had "similar or even slightly better outcomes" than those who were not smacked in terms of aggression, substance abuse, adult convictions and school achievement. "Study members in the 'smacking only' category of punishment appeared to be particularly high-functioning and achieving members of society,"

Smacking study hits at claims of harm - NZ Herald

Latest breaking news articles, photos, video, blogs, reviews, analysis, opinion and reader comment from New Zealand and around the World - NZ Herald

www.nzherald.co.nz

All eight studies, including four randomised clinical trials, found that nonabusive smacking benefited children when it backed up milder disciplinary tactics with children aged 2 to 6 years.

Child discipline: Weak evidence for a smacking ban - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

‘Studies show that, for children with behavioural problems, using a smack on the bottom as a back-up to other methods – such as a time-out away from fun activities – is twice as effective at resolving difficult behaviour compared with non-physical discipline alone. A body of evidence shows smacking is effective for particularly defiant children.

Is smacking your child tantamount to child abuse?

Two of the UK's leading children's charities, the NSPCC and Barnardo's, had called on Ministers to bring England in line with Wales and Scotland, by making illegal any physical punishment of children.

www.dailymail.co.uk

And yes, words can be violent too. If the same mum started yelling at the stranger that could be regarded as oppressive or abusive. More magical thinking.

Words are not violence. Here is the definition of violence 'behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something'. So its not magical thinking and perhaps someone who believes it words are actual violence is engaging in magical thinking.

We do not need physical punishments for children. We do better without them, as can be seen anywhere you look.

Once again this doesn't seem to be the case. Since coporal punishment has been stopped it appears bad behaviour and disrespect for authority has increased.

Some studies as above show that measured slapping can produce better outcomes in dicipline. But the fact remains that child and adolescent behaviour has worsened since smacking has been outlawed. Why is that. I am not saying that smaking is the reason but that not smacking has not produced better behaviour either.

We never smacked, spanked or slapped our children. Friends who did told us without any awareness of the irony that we did not need to - 'because your children are well-behaved'.

So I guess if your children were well behaved then you were never in the situation where perhaps a single mum is trying to control her boys. Or parents who have bad behaved kids. It seems there are a generation of parents who did smack and most seem to have well adjusted kids comapred to today.

There is a difference between a light tap on the backside and hitting, abusing a kid with a stick or hand to the point of causing physical marks. That is a fact.

 

[Jimmy It]

Abuse is different than spanking. The lack of discipline raises children with, well, no discipline. Sometimes parents are blessed with more compliant offspring and, "think more highly of themselves than they should." They mistakenly begin to believe it is a result of their superior wisdom and perfect parenting skills. They risk becoming foolish enough to presume that all children can be raised by these methods because, well, they are all little angels are they not? Let's not crush their delicate little ids.
God may value our souls equally and that is debatable, and not to be found in scripture. That is the Constitution.
We are not created equal. God gave different temperaments, different gifts. Different degrees of talent, and, 'Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated."
"Some you save with love, some you save with fear"

 

[Bradskii]

Abuse is different than spanking. The lack of discipline raises children with, well, no discipline. Sometimes parents are blessed with more compliant offspring and, "think more highly of themselves than they should." They mistakenly begin to believe it is a result of their superior wisdom and perfect parenting skills. They risk becoming foolish enough to presume that all children can be raised by these methods because, well, they are all little angels are they not? Let's not crush their delicate little ids.
God may value our souls equally and that is debatable, and not to be found in scripture. That is the Constitution.
We are not created equal. God gave different temperaments, different gifts. Different degrees of talent, and, 'Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated."
"Some you save with love, some you save with fear"

Do you have children?

 

[stevevw]

But the evidence posted in this very thread supports the hypothesis that it does.

The studies did not seperate those who used a light slap on the buttock or lower extremities such as on the hand within a controlled and measured framework of discipline that also included time outs, withdrawal of favorite devices or activities with corporal punishment that was unmeasured, uncontrolled, through stress and anger that left marks.

Surely even the layperson can see a clear destinction between the two.

When the disic[line was measured without the uncontrolled group the evidence showed smacking within a measured disicplinary framework had no negative bearing on a childs wellbeing and in fact was beneficial in some cases.

Child discipline: Weak evidence for a smacking ban - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

All eight studies, including four randomised clinical trials, found that nonabusive smacking benefited children when it backed up milder disciplinary tactics with children aged 2 to 6 years.

Is smacking your child tantamount to child abuse?

Two of the UK's leading children's charities, the NSPCC and Barnardo's, had called on Ministers to bring England in line with Wales and Scotland, by making illegal any physical punishment of children.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[stevevw]

And quite rightly so. As our understanding of what treatment in childhood will result in lasting trauma has developed, we have been willing to take that into account in our legal frameworks around abuse.

Has it really developed. I know we have more knowledge, data but that doesn't stop ideology getting in the way. In fact if we really followed the data then we should be finding that traditional parenting is the optimum way to bring up kids across a number of areas. So I don't always trust the so called new Wokeness, the new Critical insights about what is the correct way to bring up kids as its tainted with ideology.

Put it this way kids and adolescents are more unhappy, more disturbed, more suicidal, more badly behaved, more neurotic, more narcissistic than ever. So what exactly are the New discoveries doing exactly because they are not helping kids to become better people but their actually getting worse.

The rest of your post is your usual bemoaning of the world today and how evil recent social changes are, but it has nothing to do with either abuse or corporal punishment.

Actually the post is very relevant to child rearing and dicipline. If the State is indoctrinating children with one ideological belief about morality relating to child behaviour and a family or families have a different belief then this is actually creating a conflict in the child. Its actually undermining the parents right to bring up their child in the way they see fit.

I am not bemoaning or claiming todays society but rather pointing out the facts around how society has changed and how the State has infringed more on our democractic rights and freedoms which as mentioned is connected to the basis for how we should bring up kids.

Any discussion on child rearing involving discipline will naturally include how that society sees discipline, how the government sees discipline and how much they get involved in shaping the culture rather than allowing families themselves to shape the culture.

 

[Larniavc]

The studies did not seperate those who used a light slap on the buttock or lower extremities such as on the hand within a controlled and measured framework of discipline that also included time outs, withdrawal of favorite devices or activities with corporal punishment that was unmeasured, uncontrolled, through stress and anger that left marks.

Surely even the layperson can see a clear destinction between the two.

When the disic[line was measured without the uncontrolled group the evidence showed smacking within a measured disicplinary framework had no negative bearing on a childs wellbeing and in fact was beneficial in some cases.

Child discipline: Weak evidence for a smacking ban - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

All eight studies, including four randomised clinical trials, found that nonabusive smacking benefited children when it backed up milder disciplinary tactics with children aged 2 to 6 years.

Is smacking your child tantamount to child abuse?

Two of the UK's leading children's charities, the NSPCC and Barnardo's, had called on Ministers to bring England in line with Wales and Scotland, by making illegal any physical punishment of children.

www.dailymail.co.uk

That’s an editorial based on data from the previous century. Contemporary research shows the opposite.

 

[o_mlly]

Can a parent reason with a child before the child reaches the age of reason? No.
Should a parent provide disincentives to the 4-year-old child who constantly runs into the road? Yes.
This will hurt me more than you but I love you too much not to.

 

[Whyayeman]

There is a difference between a light tap on the backside and hitting, abusing a kid with a stick or hand to the point of causing physical marks. That is a fact.

Of course there is a difference. It is a difference of degree. But both are assault. (Magical thinking again. Hitting doesn't count when it's your child.)

Good parental control does not depend on physical violence. The example above, repeated several times, is that of a toddler running on to the road. This is an example of bad parenting in two ways. First, the child was not properly supervised; second, the child was punished (assaulted) for the parent's carelessness.

Far better not to allow it to happen. Toddlers should not be loose beside a road. They should be held by the hand or harnessed.