Kid's Corporal Punishment - a Risk to Mental Health

[Paidiske]

Child abuse has increased steeply in New Zealand since the anti-smacking law was passed.

Is it just that physical abuse is now being recorded in cases where it would not have been, previously?

 

[lanceleo]

Evidence that this claim is accurate please.

We don't need evidence. It's obvious a lack of discipline puts parents ' love in question because it shows a lack of concern for the character development of their children . Disciplining children averts disaster . Without correction , children grow up with no clear understanding of right and wrong and with little direction to their lives .

 

[Whyayeman]

Once again I am not saying that the breakdown in behaviour is the result of not using corporal punishment. Corporal punishment though wrong did provide discipline. It did stop a lot of bad behaviour within schools just by the fact that many were fearful of the consequences.

I think it would be extremely difficult to show that corporal punishment in schools stopped bad behaviour. In the UK the opposite is true; misbehaviour drops when corporal punishment is abolished. Now that there is none in British schools and good behaviour is maintained by other means.

It is simply wrong to claim that corporal punishment was not replaced by other, better, systems. Educational standards here have been going up for years, without it.

 

[Whyayeman]

The idea that corporal punishment is against the law in some places especially now in the West is law and policy. Someone that comes to our society from which corporal punishment was a cultural norm can no longer practice their beliefs. So it seems parental choices and beliefs about how to bring up kids has been usurped by the State.

Families have norms. Governments have policies.

Corporal punishment in America is a cultural norm, a social custom, older than the United States. Its proponents on this thread demonstrate this, including with Biblical quotes in their support. Nothing I have read here contradicts the OP's contention that it risks children's mental health.

 

[Larniavc]

We don't need evidence.

Bwaaah ha ha hah!

 

[Larniavc]

Child abuse has increased steeply in New Zealand since the anti-smacking law was passed.

Evidence of a causal link please.

 

[stevevw]

That not using corporal punishment is a causal factor in the bad behaviour of kids on a societal level.

Ah well I am glad we sorted that out as this is not my position and rather you are assuming thats my position.

I am not saying that "not using corporal punishment is a causal factor in the bad behaviour of kids". I think I have said this a few times now.

I am saying the alternative to corporal punishment that came in after it was outlawed which was basically 'no punishment or ineffective punishment for bad behaviour' is what is causing the bad and disrepectful behaviour for schools and society.

The fact that corporal punishment was outlawed and no longer practiced and that disrespect and bad behaviour increased after it was outlawed is the evidence. Whatever disciplinary method that was introduced after corporal punishment has not worked even as effectively as corporal punishment did. But that is not saying I am supporting corporal punishment.

I am merely pointing out that we have not made the situation better but in fact have made it worse because now we have little dicipline and the harms that come from this for everyone is worse than it was before. Its certainly not better because kids are unhappier and out of control and parents and teachers are at their wits end. Families have broken down and broken families means broken society.

In fact in a strange paradoxial way since outlawing corporal punishment and taking the softly softly approach violence and abuse against kids and those in authority has increased.

 

[stevevw]

Child abuse has increased steeply in New Zealand since the anti-smacking law was passed.

It seems the alternatives being pushed to replace traditional, biblical discipline are not working, so frustration levels rise and parents loose their rag.

Children soon learn to manipulate their parents if there are no serious consequences for their unacceptable behaviours.

I think its because theres no clear and unified way for anyone to follow. They took smacking away and never came up with an alternative. Everyone was left to their own devices.

I think just like we have seen division and antagonism between identity groups in general society the same thing has happened within families. Kids turning against parents, parents against kids, parents against each other. The individual and identity group is elevated above the family and community and everyones fighting for their rights.

 

[Larniavc]

'no punishment or ineffective punishment for bad behaviour'

Where has anyone advocated for that? When has 'no punishment or ineffective punishment for bad behaviour' been used as a method of discipline?

Would I be incorrect to state your position as 'in the absence of corporal punishment and it's replacement with 'no punishment or ineffective punishment for bad behaviour' disciple has declined?

 

[stevevw]

The state has a duty to protect our most vulnerable members from abuse. The freedom to abuse - no matter how "personal" or "private" the abuse - is not a freedom worth protecting.

Yes of course but then what is now regarded as abuse is something different today. I mean the State is now telling parents how to bring up their kids through schools by filling their heads with ideology which is beyond what schools should be doing. Its up to parents as to what their kids should believe and live by not the State and its agents.

A good example is how parents who don't want for thier kids to learn about the States ideological cirriculum about sex, gender, relationships and families and teach their kids the traditional ways are seen as abusive. In fact teaching these traditional ideas in State school is seen as abusive.

So like I said it depends on what you mean by abusive and it seems the State has expanded that definition into our private and family lives even our social lives as to what is acceptable or not in the public square.

Perhaps thats because once societies beliefs were more united and had more status as an independent insitution within society. But with the rise of the Welfare State and the breakdown in families the State has stepped in more as the parent having to pick up the pieces.

 

[stevevw]

Where has anyone advocated for that? When has 'no punishment or ineffective punishment for bad behaviour' been used as a method of discipline?

In the places where student behaviour is breaking down obviously. If behaviour is breaking down then there is logically no effective discipline. Its self evident.

Would I be incorrect to state your position as 'in the absence of corporal punishment and it's replacement with 'no punishment or ineffective punishment for bad behaviour' disciple has declined?

Yes, but remember this doesn't mean we fall back on corporal punishment. It doesn't mean that because the alternative that replaced corporal punishment failed this proves corporal punishment was right all along.

It just means there are two bad alternatives and the problem has not be fixed and in some ways made worse.

 

[stevevw]

I think it would be extremely difficult to show that corporal punishment in schools stopped bad behaviour.

How can that be. We know student behaviour has worsened. That in itself is indirect evidence. It seems a simple formula. Scare the living God out of students with the threat of pain and generally most will be less willing to cross that line lol.

Back then standing up to a teacher, spitting at them, threatening them was a rare thing. No one dared. Sure some of us smoked behind the toilet block but now some smoke pot in the class room.

In the UK that the opposite is true; misbehaviour drops when corporal punishment is abolished. Now that there is none in British schools and good behaviour is maintained by other means.
It is simply wrong to claim that corporal punishment was not replaced by other, better, systems. Educational standards here have been going up for years, without it.

That cannot be right. According to recent evidence students are out of control.

Britain’s schools are facing an epidemic of bad behaviour

Britain’s schools are facing an epidemic of bad behaviour

Something troubling is happening in Britain’s schools. This week, the government released its findings from the first national survey into pupil behaviour in classrooms. The results are a hard lesson to learn. But, as a teacher who has witnessed chairs being thrown and pupils urinating on...

www.spectator.co.uk

Disruptive behaviour in English schools worse since Covid, says outgoing Ofsted head
Suspensions for physical assault, threatening behaviour and verbal abuse have increased, with even primary schoolchildren being defiant and refusing to follow simple classroom instructions

Disruptive behaviour in English schools worse since Covid, says outgoing Ofsted head

Amanda Spielman says children are walking out of class, or registering but not attending lessons

www.theguardian.com

 

[Whyayeman]

I mean the State is now telling parents how to bring up their kids through schools by filling their heads with ideology which is beyond what schools should be doing. Its up to parents as to what their kids should believe and live by not the State and its agents.

Ah, I think I understand stevevw's agenda now. The law on assault has been interpreted to include one's own children. Corporal punishment is assault, even the special case when parents beat their own children. And the state is doing it.

The language here is inflated. Since when was the law on assault an ideology? It is government interference in private lives; and that leads to chaos!

It is magical thinking to suppose that an assault on one's own child does not count.

 

[stevevw]

Families have norms. Governments have policies.

Corporal punishment in America is a cultural norm, a social custom, older than the United States. Its proponents on this thread demonstrate this, including with Biblical quotes in their support. Nothing I have read here contradicts the OP's contention that it risks children's mental health.

I am not saying corporal punishment is the right way to bring up happy and responible kids. But I don't agree with the reasoning and generalization that corporal punishment "risks children's mental health".

If that was the case then because it was a cultural norm in the past and everyone did it it follows that we should have had mass psychological health problems. But we didn't. Many grew up well adjusted and responsible adults. Yes some were abused and suffered health problems but generally many didn't. They got over it. What effected most wasn't getting the belt but seeing their families torn apart. That was what left the deep psychological scars that led many to poor mental health.

But ironically it seems as we have outlawed traditional means of discipline and bringing up kids so has their mental health deteriorated. Why is this. More kids and young adults are more unhappy and psychologically damaged by their upbringing or lack thereof and not a hand has been laid on them.

 

[Whyayeman]

Child abuse has increased steeply in New Zealand since the anti-smacking law was passed.

I think such an assertion needs some supporting citation which would point towards the truth of this and also demonstrate some causation of the one by the other.

 

[Lost Witness]

The state has a duty to protect our most vulnerable members from abuse. The freedom to abuse - no matter how "personal" or "private" the abuse - is not a freedom worth protecting.

Proverbs speaks pretty clearly of the value of discipline

 

[stevevw]

Ah, I think I understand stevevw's agenda now. The law on assault has been interpreted to include one's own children. Corporal punishment is assault, even the special case when parents beat their own children. And the state is doing it.

The language here is inflated. Since when was the law on assault an ideology? It is government interference in private lives; and that leads to chaos!

It is magical thinking to suppose that an assault on one's own child does not count.

No thats not my agenda or that I have any agenda. I am not sure how you can even get that from what I am saying. I am not disputing physical punishment is classed as assault. Apart from say a mum slapping little Jonny on the backside for running out on the road or something its a dangerous idea in the hands of many parents who are incapable of measured discipline.

No I am saying as far as the States control and intervention into peoples private and family lives, their beliefs and values in how to bring up their kids. The definition of abuse has changed (words are violence), holding certain beliefs especially traditional ones (not just smacking) is now seen as abusive and oppressive.

So the State and its agents through institutions are dictating what beliefs and ideas are acceptable or not in how to bring up kids. Not just about the core subjects like science. math, english but the social subjects. The fact that social and political subjects have increased so much shows how the State has expanded its reach in what is acceptable or not in society.

The State pushes only one ideology within schools whereas in a free society all ideologies and beliefs should be equally allowed and promoted or not.

 

[Lost Witness]

Proverbs 13:24​

24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

That's wisdom.

 

[Whyayeman]

Proverbs speaks pretty clearly of the value of discipline

I value discipline; I think all of us here do. I don't need that Old Book to tell me.

I think discipline which relies on assault is ineffective. Behaviour improves when corporal punishment is replaced by other strategies. A system of rewards and privileges to encourage good behaviour is a better plan. That is the way it is done here even in our prisons.

 

[Whyayeman]

I am not disputing physical punishment is classed as assault. Apart from say a mum slapping little Jonny on the backside

This is self-contradictory. If that mum hit a stranger with the same - or less - force it would be assault. That is what I mean by magical thinking. And yes, words can be violent too. If the same mum started yelling at the stranger that could be regarded as oppressive or abusive. More magical thinking.

We do not need physical punishments for children. We do better without them, as can be seen anywhere you look.

We never smacked, spanked or slapped our children. Friends who did told us without any awareness of the irony that we did not need to - 'because your children are well-behaved'.