Kevin Giles: The Headship of Men and the Abuse of Women

[Gregorikos]

Complementarians teach biblical hierarchicalism and patriarchy (admitted to by Denny Burk, Joe Carter, Russell Moore, etc) and that men and women are equal, not in a substantive but spiritual sense. Their “role” language quickly morphs into power language.

Hence, this hierarchy leads to entitlement and power and the requisite submssion of the woman.

There is a correlation between hiearchy and patriarchy and abuse by men of women.

Males feeling entitled is a cultural product and complementarianism is such a culture that leads to such a product. Males who seize that culture’s control are more likely to abuse.

There are many good lines in this post by Scot McKnight, but the one I highlighted above jumps out at me. I get so tired of complementarians claiming they believe men and women are equal. That line perfectly frames the reality of what they are saying.

Has anyone read Giles' book yet?


Complementarianism and the Abusive Male

 

[Andrewn]

Regarding the roles of men and women, 1Ti 2:11-15 is the most difficult passage to interpret. Starting at minute 44 of the video, NT Wright describes his approach to the passage.

 

[bekkilyn]

It's obvious when it comes to the "different roles" argument that all the roles that are perceived as the most prestigious, powerful, wealthiest (and the like) are assigned to men while the most demeaning, enslaving, powerless, and impoverished roles are assigned to women.

If that's their definition of equality, I have to wonder about their definition of inequality.

 

[bekkilyn]

Regarding the roles of men and women, 1Ti 2:11-15 is the most difficult passage to interpret. Starting at minute 44 of the video, NT Wright describes his approach to the passage.

Thanks! I will put this video in my watch soon queue!

 

[Tra Phull]

I got along fine for 20 years on Christian messageboards without having to deal with complementarians and so many Flat Earthers and KJOnliests...

Will see what N T Wright says

 

[Gregorikos]

Regarding the roles of men and women, 1Ti 2:11-15 is the most difficult passage to interpret. Starting at minute 44 of the video, NT Wright describes his approach to the passage.

I listened to NT and had a hard time receiving it. I was so blown away by Cynthia Westfall's interpretation that I can't see it any other way now. And I'm frankly baffled how I can be studying the Bible for 40 years and never come across this obvious interpretation, even in egalitarian circles? (Exception- Marg Mowczko mentions it in a passing reference as a possibility but when I read it it didn't sink in.)

This completely blows the lid off of 1 Timothy 2:12. As far as I'm concerned, it can never be used to keep women out of ministry again.

Start listening around... 5:50-

 

[Tra Phull]

I have trouble watching long videos on my Kindle, gives me a headache

But little by little, I will watch

 

[bekkilyn]

Paul's statements, and his reasons for those statements.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I have always understood the woman (EVE) was made FOR Adam not the other way around, or Equally.

When God gave the instructions for the Priesthood in the Wilderness, HE at that time did not include women in any of the Offices especially, those in the Priesthood.

I guess we would have to classify Him as a Chauvinist, according to today's standards, or in our society where the Genders have morphed, or are blurred to such an extent, to have lost all meaning.

The question of the validity of her argument is not just "Should women be in Ministry" but what other things does she feel need to be addressed as well.

I feel there is more than just this one issue on her plate of grievances.

Did you actually watch the videos or did you just barge into the Egalitarian faith group in order to parrot the same superficial and shallow interpretation of scripture we've all heard thousands of times and have soundly rejected? Maybe we would like to have a deeper discussion on the topic than is possible while fending off the "God created women as a slave race" crowd.

 

[Gregorikos]

Paul's statements, and his reasons for those statements.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I have always understood the woman (EVE) was made FOR Adam not the other way around, or Equally.

When God gave the instructions for the Priesthood in the Wilderness, HE at that time did not include women in any of the Offices especially, those in the Priesthood.

I guess we would have to classify Him as a Chauvinist, according to today's standards, or in our society where the Genders have morphed, or are blurred to such an extent, to have lost all meaning.

The question of the validity of her argument is not just "Should women be in Ministry" but what other things does she feel need to be addressed as well.

I feel there is more than just this one issue on her plate of grievances.

Who are you talking about with the plate of grievances? Dr Westfall?

And did you realize you're in the Egalitarian Forum?

 

[Tra Phull]

He said he's gone, Greg.

Me, I am bummed out by memories of Bill Gothard and Don Crossland.

 

[bekkilyn]

Please forgive me, I didn't realize this was a "Mutual Admiration Society" meeting, I won't post again.

Great, you can practice learning in silence with all subjection.

 

[Tra Phull]

If I had a hammer
I'd hammer in the morning
I'd hammer in the evening
All over this land
I'd hammer out female preachers
I'd hammer out deaconesses
I'd hammer out the love between my egalitarian brothers and my sister's
All over this land

 

[Tra Phull]

( Rose2020 started a virtual camp out thread, I'm singing Kumbaya in it )

I can't do links, but it's in New threads

 

[Andrewn]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
Remember, Cynthia Westfall said that Adam needed Eve. Eve did not need Adam. And God could have accomplished the incarnation without ever creating Adam.

I'm starting to have nightmares .

 

[ewq1938]