Kerry on 2nd amendment

[Zackmeister]

Hello, Ready Fire! Welcome from a fellow newbie.

 

[MKalashnikov]

It's all about shot placement. I read an article where a state trooper shot a man 5 times with a 357 mag and he lived. The man shot the trooper with a 22 one time and killed the trooper. Want to know why, the bullet hit the trooper under the arm, avoiding his vest and struck his aorta. Another example a BG (Bad guy ) shot at a cop with an ak-47. Fired all thirty rounds and only hit the officer twice.

If you ever get the chance you need to watch the video of that incident. It is disturbing, but very informative.

 

[readyfire]

Hello guys glad to be here !Sorry bout the huge first post but i had to!

 

[Walther]

Hey guys from the firing line, anybody know what happened to thehighroad?

 

[Tachocline]

Accident Type

All Automobile: 43,000
Falls: 16,200
Poisoning by solids, liquids: 11,700
Pedestrian1: 5,300
Drowning: 3,900
Fires, burns: 3,600
Suffocation by ingested object: 3,400
Firearms: 600
Poisoning by gases, vapors: 400
All other causes: 14,500
TOTAL: 97,300

And I retort:

http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

 

[MKalashnikov]

And I think the US also needs to realise that the murder rate is a mirror of gun ownership. That's why I mentioned eggs and omelettes earlier. A consequence of the gun ownership prevalence is that more people are going to be killed whether by accident or the ease of murder because of them. There is no other reason for the disparity of murder rates with say the UK and the US.

Let's Compare Maryland and Pennsylvania. (Both Mid-Atlantic Rust Belt States.) They are next door neighbors with Similar Economic Demographics. (Which Gun Control Advocates always cite as the real reason for crime.)

In fact, Maryland's Economic Numbers are much better than Pennsylvania's.

The Median Household income in Maryland is $52,868 where in Pennsylvania it is only $40,106.

Maryland has extremely strict Gun-Control Laws, whereas Pennsylvania's are some of the least stringent in the Nation. (Another interesting fact is that more Pennsylvanians have CCW permits than any other State.)

In the year 2000 Maryland had an estimated population of 5,296,486 which ranked the state 19th in population. For that year the State of Maryland had a total Crime Index of 4,816.1 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 12th highest total Crime Index.

In the year 2000 Pennsylvania had an estimated population of 12,281,054 which ranked the state as having the 6th in population. For that year the State of Pennsylvania had a total Crime Index of 2,995.3 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 43rd highest total Crime Index.





Now, lets look at the United States and England.

Gun Control Myths: The Case of England
by Thomas Sowell (November 26, 2002)

Summary: While England has not yet reached the American level of murders, it has already surpassed the United States in rates of robbery and burglary. Moreover, in recent years the murder rate in England has been going up under still more severe gun control laws, while the murder rate in the United States has been going down as more and more states have allowed private citizens to carry concealed weapons -- and have begun locking up more criminals.
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=2205

 

[Walther]

And I retort: (wouldn't let me post a link)

I noticed on that linked page it said young males, and on one specific graph I believed it said under 15. While this assessment is very relevant and meaningful, it shouldn't be used to judge and entire country when it highlights young males. Many young males are by nature two things: curious and rebellious. These accidents are largely due in part of lack of responsibility of the parent/gun owner which is something many people here have said there needs to be more knowledge and responsibility.

As for black males, white males, and women. If you look at much of the culture involving the two groups of males, you will see a large lean towards guns being popular, but not used responsibly in one over the other.

 

[Zackmeister]

Hey guys from the firing line, anybody know what happened to thehighroad?

Hurricane Frances. The server is in Florida.

 

[Tachocline]

Not yet reached. DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!! The US is a factor of 3.7 more. I honestly don't think most of you are used to dealing with numbers and stats in your lives? That's a ridiculous difference.

 

[Walther]

Hurricane Frances. The server is in Florida.

I see said the blind man. Appreciate!

 

[MKalashnikov]

And I retort:

http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/...NS/GUNSTAT.html

First of all you are using 1998 Numbers. Secondly your retort is meaningless, and actually proves my point.

You said (I will highlight in bold):

I didn't say that. But the average gun owner private citizen probably can't be trusted with a pea shooter never mind a lethal firearm. Look at the stats. Most private gun owners in the States have never had either military training, police training or any civil firearms courses. Incompetents in charge of lethal weapons. Look at all the firearm accidents in the States.

We are talking about Accidents only, not the misuse of firearms. ACCIDENTS. This is precisely what you said above.

So let's look at accidents.

Your own sources list 866 fatal firearms accidents in 1998. (This number has dropped in newer statistics, but we will use that number anyway.)

This is far fewer than Suffocation, Fires, Drowning, Pedestrian, Poisoning, Falls, and Automobiles.



You lose yet again.

 

[Tachocline]

Thanks for misstating my post. Accidents was just a small point of the previous 70 posts.

Actually if you check on the web the accident number is in the 1100 region according to the NRA I believe.

No one is claiming gun accidents rival fires. car accidents. That's silly.

But you still need to answer why the US has approx. 12,000 handgun deaths a year?

 

[MKalashnikov]

Thanks for misstating my post. Accidents was just a small point of the previous 70 posts.

No one is misstating your post. I quoted your own words:

I didn't say that. But the average gun owner private citizen probably can't be trusted with a pea shooter never mind a lethal firearm. Look at the stats. Most private gun owners in the States have never had either military training, police training or any civil firearms courses. Incompetents in charge of lethal weapons. Look at all the firearm accidents in the States.

Actually if you check on the web the accident number is in the 1100 region according to the NRA I believe.

Sorry you are wrong.

In 2002 there were 44,000 accidental automobile deaths, 15,700 accidental poisoning deaths, 14,500 accidental deaths caused by falls, 4,200 accidental deaths caused by suffocation by ingested objects, 3,000 accidental drowning deaths, 2,900 accidental deaths caused by fires, flames, and smoke, 2,900 accidental deaths caused by mechanical suffocation, and 1,000 accidental deaths caused by natural heat or cold, while accidental firearms deaths were only 776.

No one is claiming gun accidents rival fires. car accidents. That's silly.

I will quote you again:

Look at all the firearm accidents in the States

.

But you still need to answer why the US has approx. 12,000 handgun deaths a year?

We are talking about accidents according to your own quote. Don't backpeddle now.

Your entire point was that Gunowners were fools who couldn't be trusted.

Let's look at another aspect of this.

CCW Permit holders have a well documented history of being extremely law-abiding.

Let's look at a Texas Study:

http://www.tsra.com/arrests.htm

Males.
​

The average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 7.7 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder, rape, robbery, and assault than the average male CHL holder.

Looking at violent crimes individually, the average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 1.7 times (rate of 7.4 v. 4.3) more likely to be arrested for murder; 87 times (rate of 24 v. 0.3) more likely to be arrested for rape; 53 times (rate of 44 v. 0.8) more likely to be arrested for robbery; 3.4 times (rate of 202 v. 60) more likely to be arrested for aggravated assault; and 10 times (rate of 892 v. 87) more likely to be arrested for other assaults than the average male CHL holder.

No male Texas CHL holder was arrested for negligent manslaughter during the 1996 through 2000 period.

The average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 18 times more likely to be arrested for committing a non-violent crime than the average male CHL holder.
​

Females.
​

The average female Texan who is 21 years or older is 7.5 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder and assault than the average female CHL holder.

Looking at violent crimes individually, the average female Texan who is 21 years or older is 2.0 times (rate of 1.2 v. 0.6) more likely to be arrested for murder; 2.5 times (rate of 48 v. 19) more likely to be arrested for aggravated assault; and 17 times (rate of 178 v. 11) more likely to be arrested for other assaults than the average female CHL holder.

No female Texas CHL holder has arrested for negligent manslaughter, rape, or robbery during the 1996 through 2000 period.

The average female Texan who is 21 years or older is 13 times more likely to be arrested for committing a non-violent crime than the average female CHL holder.​

​

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And Let's look at Florida too:​

​

In Florida the firearm crime rate among license holders, is annually averaging only several crimes per 100,000 licensees, it is a fraction of the rate for the state as a whole. Since the carry law went into effect in 1987, less than 0.02% of Florida carry permits have been revoked because of gun crimes committed by license holders.​

 

[Tachocline]

You are now being dishonest. We were talking primarily about deaths due to murder. The accidents issue was a tiny portion. And you know that. You are bait and switching.

Google the accident number. I saw 800 something, 1100 and 1200 something.

How in all honesty can you link these following comments:

Look at firearm accidents in tha states &
But you still................12,000 handgun deaths a year.

I never linked them. Why are you doing this.

Is your modus operandi in debate to this questionable tactic?

Goodnight anyway I said 40 minutes ago I was gone. ZZZZZZZZZZ!

 

[MKalashnikov]

You are now being dishonest. We were talking primarily about deaths due to murder. The accidents issue was a tiny portion. And you know that. You are bait and switching.

Nope, you got caught and are trying to cover it. You said "Look at all the firearm accidents in the States."

Your entire point in the post being that gunowners couldn't be trusted with firearms.

Google the accident number. I saw 800 something, 1100 and 1200 something.

My numbers came directly from the National Safety Council. In 2002 there were only 776 fatal firearms accidents.

How in all honesty can you link these following comments:

Look at firearm accidents in tha states &
But you still................12,000 handgun deaths a year.

I never linked them. Why are you doing this.

Is your modus operandi in debate to this questionable tactic?

I will quote you IN FULL Again:

I didn't say that. But the average gun owner private citizen probably can't be trusted with a pea shooter never mind a lethal firearm. Look at the stats. Most private gun owners in the States have never had either military training, police training or any civil firearms courses. Incompetents in charge of lethal weapons. Look at all the firearm accidents in the States.

You were talking about accidents, because you had a false assumption about gun owners. Fatal Firearms accidents are very uncommon compared to other types of accidents.

You specifically were talking about accidents, not the misuse of firearms. People can misuse any tool to commit mayhem, (Automobiles, Knives, Baseball Bats, Frying Pans, Ect...)

With household items It is very very easy to construct all kinds of explosives, even high order explosives.

Firearms are a tool, They can be misused like any other tool, but they are used in self defense far more than they are misused by people intent on committing mayhem, people who would use other means even if all firearms magically disappeared from the earth tommorow.

According to a Department of Justice Study, There are over 1,500,000 defensive gun uses in any given year, the vast majority occur without a single shot being fired. Compare that number to your 12,000 misuses.

Those are 1,500,000 robberies, murders, rapes, arsons, ect... that are STOPPED by private citizens each year.

(Dr. Gary Kleck's study has the number at 2,000,000 but I went with the smaller number from the Department of Justice to make you happy. )

 

[readyfire]

Nice job dittomonkey,i think you did great in your debate and with my temper couldnt of done it better.

 

[readyfire]

You know its really sad the picture unknowing people get of the majority of gun owners.Im on firearms related forums all the time and all i see are people training and really taking safety very serious.There are those who shouldnt have firearms,and theyre are those that shouldnt have cars and so forth and so on.

 

[drboyd]

Ummm, can I butt in here? I'm still trying to figure this one out - what does gun ownership have to do with being a Christian?

 

[Western Deity]

Nobody has the right to defend themselves to the point where somebody else is killed, because in any situation, there is no such thing as a person who is "right" and a person who is "wrong".