Kerry on 2nd amendment

[Zackmeister]

800 mph? Now you are violating good physics principles. More like 1200 fps or less.

 

[Tachocline]

800 mph? Now you are violating good physics principles. More like 1200 fps or less.

Do the math. 1200fps is about 800mph.

Geeez. How old are you?

 

[Stat101]

It's all about shot placement. I read an article where a state trooper shot a man 5 times with a 357 mag and he lived. The man shot the trooper with a 22 one time and killed the trooper. Want to know why, the bullet hit the trooper under the arm, avoiding his vest and struck his aorta. Another example a BG (Bad guy ) shot at a cop with an ak-47. Fired all thirty rounds and only hit the officer twice.

 

[InnerPhyre]

My point was that that we don't need new gun laws. We need to enforce the ones on the books and stop letting criminals out before their sentences are up. Criminals will always have guns. That's a fact. Let's enact harsher penalties for those who misuse guns. FL has new gun laws that are doing a very good job of reducing crime. If you pull a gun during a crime, you get 10 years in prison....mandatory. If you fire a gun during a crime, 20 years. Shoot someone, life. Let's not solve the drunk driving problem by making the drinking age 50. Let's increase the legal consequences for driving drunk.

 

[MKalashnikov]

Absolute nonsense which has been refuted a thousand times. Handgun lethality is way beyond a bat or knife. Any fool knows this.

You are wrong. I can tell you from Years of Martial Arts Training, Military Experience, as a Current Street Cop and licensed paramedic, that you have absolutely no concept of how deadly a knife or baseball attack can be.

A Criminal can crush your skull with a single well placed hit with the baseball bat, a stab wound can put you out like a light.

Most people who are shot with a handgun DO NOT DIE. A shotgun is a far more deadly weapon.

People who see the movies and television think that one who is shot instantly falls down dead. This is very, very rare. Most people who are shot with a handgun survive.

And read what I said. The person running away in knife attacks if often the attacker due to the recoil at the mess of it all. Another well known phenomena oft studied.

It is far easier to kill with a handgun than a knife, period. To say different shows a complete unfamiliarity with physics, weapons in general and the statistics.

How much Law Enforcement experience do you have, How Much Military Experience, How much experience do you have with firearms in general, how much hand to hand training do you have?

I can tell you that if you are unarmed, and someone comes at you with a knife, intent on killing you, you cannot simply run away.

 

[Zackmeister]

Do the math. 1200fps is about 800mph.

Geeez. How old are you?

I seem to be batting a thousand tonight. I stand corrected again. Funny thing is I knew better in both instances. I'm sorry.

 

[Tachocline]

It's all about shot placement. I read an article where a state trooper shot a man 5 times with a 357 mag and he lived. The man shot the trooper with a 22 one time and killed the trooper. Want to know why, the bullet hit the trooper under the arm, avoiding his vest and struck his aorta. Another example a BG (Bad guy ) shot at a cop with an ak-47. Fired all thirty rounds and only hit the officer twice.

This is a single example, reminds me of magic bullets and the grassy knoll in Dealey Plaza.

Come on Stat101, you know the Central Limit Theorem I hope. The averaging over huge numbers makes individual cases moot. People are shot in Europe in the same manner as they are here. It's just we do it more.

 

[Tachocline]

I seem to be batting a thousand tonight. I stand corrected again. Funny thing is I knew better in both instances. I'm sorry.

Funny thing is you went ahead anyway. Have a beer or something.

 

[Zackmeister]

What exactly is your view on guns and the second amendment Tachocline?

 

[Stat101]

We do it more because there are more of us.

 

[Tachocline]

Guys it's been fun. I have to go to bed.

By the way, I was playing Devil's Advocate to some extent. I'm not anti-gun, though I do think handguns are a problem in the US. The problem is though there is no practical way of getting rid of the huge excess of them around.

And I think the US also needs to realise that the murder rate is a mirror of gun ownership. That's why I mentioned eggs and omelettes earlier. A consequence of the gun ownership prevalence is that more people are going to be killed whether by accident or the ease of murder because of them. There is no other reason for the disparity of murder rates with say the UK and the US. We are not dealing wit a 5 or 10% difference which could have many root causes, we are talking factors of 3 or 4 which has an obvious cause. It is easier to kill an American because the killer is more likely to be using a more lethal killing weapon, a gun.

Night all.

 

[Stat101]

Ever try shooting a handgun, it's very difficult to do. I've put several hundred rounds through my berreta and I still can only hit the center of the target once every 10 rounds or so. However, my grouping is improving,

 

[Tachocline]

We do it more because there are more of us.

Oh come on you claimed to be a statistician. You know I am talking rates not raw numbers.

 

[MKalashnikov]

And a handgun in those homes would not have stopped any single one of those events. I think an SS Panzer regiment wouldn't have had too many problems with a few Jews with handguns or some rednecks in Arkansas for that matter either.

Ever hear of Vietnam? How about the Warsaw ghetto uprising?

Here is another good example. The liberator Pistol that was airdropped over Europe during WW2.

This weapon was a Single Shot .45ACP Handgun that could only be reloaded after knocking out the spent shell with a pencil or stick. The intent was for resistance fighters to pick one up, walk up to a german solider, shoot him point blank in the head, then take his weapon.

The Germans were very afraid of this weapon, because they never knew who was going to use it.


Guerrilla forces can be suprisingly effective, far more effective than you give credit.

I guess in your mind, being carted off to a gas chamber with no way of fighting back at all is preferable to putting up resistance.

 

[MKalashnikov]

I didn't say that. But the average gun owner private citizen probably can't be trusted with a pea shooter never mind a lethal firearm. Look at the stats. Most private gun owners in the States have never had either military training, police training or any civil firearms courses. Incompetents in charge of lethal weapons. Look at all the firearm accidents in the States.

Accident Type

All Automobile: 43,000
Falls: 16,200
Poisoning by solids, liquids: 11,700
Pedestrian1: 5,300
Drowning: 3,900
Fires, burns: 3,600
Suffocation by ingested object: 3,400
Firearms: 600
Poisoning by gases, vapors: 400
All other causes: 14,500
TOTAL: 97,300

 

[Tachocline]

I hope your other thinking is better than your military history. To equate the two instances you mention to private citizen gun ownership in the US is specious.

There is one huge difference between the two (no make that two big differences) but I don't think you'll figure them out.

I'll be back tomorrow. Gotta go.

BTW dittomonkey, wasn't it you speaking authoritatively on Washington state case law in that other thread? You seemed to misunderstand jurisprudence too.

 

[Tachocline]

Deaths Due to Unintentional Injuries, 2000 (Estimates)[size=-1] (Chart compiled by GunCite. Source of data, except as noted, National Safety Council, Injury Facts, 2001 Edition, pp. 8-9, 84) [/size]Accident TypeAge0-45-1415-2425-4445-6465-7475+TotalAll Automobile9001,50010,50013,3009,2002,7004,90043,000Falls70702109501,9001,70011,30016,200Poisoning by solids, liquids60408006,8003,20030050011,700Pedestrian12503007501,3001,4004508505,300Drowning4503507001,2506502302703,900Fires, burns4002602407008005007003,600Suffocation by ingested object10020302504005002,1003,400Firearms20601501901103040600Poisoning by gases, vapors101070120804070400All other causes7004001,1003,0003,2001,6004,50014,500TOTAL2,7002,70013,80026,60019,5007,60024,40097,300

Ugh. Formatting anyone.

 

[Zackmeister]

Guys it's been fun. I have to go to bed.

By the way, I was playing Devil's Advocate to some extent. I'm not anti-gun, though I do think handguns are a problem in the US. The problem is though there is no practical way of getting rid of the huge excess of them around.

And I think the US also needs to realise that the murder rate is a mirror of gun ownership. That's why I mentioned eggs and omelettes earlier. A consequence of the gun ownership prevalence is that more people are going to be killed whether by accident or the ease of murder because of them. There is no other reason for the disparity of murder rates with say the UK and the US. We are not dealing wit a 5 or 10% difference which could have many root causes, we are talking factors of 3 or 4 which has an obvious cause. It is easier to kill an American because the killer is more likely to be using a more lethal killing weapon, a gun.

Night all.

I think that there should be more worry about the culture and circumstances that give rise to such murders. If you deal with the root problem the murder rate will decline. Gun laws inherently target law abiders instead of criminals because they buy their firearms through legal means which can be regulated. Criminals steal their weapons and therefore no law will take them away from them.

 

[readyfire]

Hello Zackmeister and everyone else!Im new here coming from the firing line forums.I would first say i am a christian and at first was a wee bit confused as to why i felt bad about having firearms for defensive purposes.I would suggest anyone who has questions on gun ownership and being christian please go to warrior talk forums in the christian warrior section and please ask questions,the people on there are very christian and will answer any questions for you concerning the issue.I to was confused until i saw some writings on that site from world renowned self defense trainer Gabe Suarez who is very much christian and very bible schooled.I will not feel bad ever again about having firearms for self defense or for fun whether they are single shot or have a fifty round mag.It is all your mind set,a gun is simply a tool,it does not become a weapon till the evil in your heart decides its going to be one.Its whats in your heart that you will be judged on and not whats sitiing in your safe.If your a killer,youll be judged,we will all be judged.Id sure feel like a heel if i had a chance to stop someone from killing me or my family knowing we have an obligation to work for the lord and let em destroy everything the lords given me and my family.It says nowhere in the bible that you have to let someone kill you and yours and if you took it that way you read it wrong .Just my 2 cents guys GOD BLESS!!!!!!cya on the firing line zackmeister!

 

[MKalashnikov]

I hope your other thinking is better than your military history. To equate the two instances you mention to private citizen gun ownership in the US is specious.

There is one huge difference between the two (no make that two big differences) but I don't think you'll figure them out.

If you think that Guerilla forces cannot beat an organized army, then it is you who has no concept of military history.

BTW dittomonkey, wasn't it you speaking authoritatively on Washington state case law in that other thread? You seemed to misunderstand jurisprudence too.

I understand it far better than you do. Singer was binding precedent, the Judge even noted that in his opinion, which you seem not to have read.