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Kent Hovind

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"One part of the Vollosovitch mammoth carbon dated at 29,500 years and another part at 44,000" but then it says, "Nowhere in the paper does it say, or even imply, that these specimens are parts of the same animal." Now, I read the whole thing, but when you take these two statements, put them together, and read them..uh......it doesn't make any sense. If Mr. Hovind messed up somewhere, I can see why.

The reason you see how easy it would be to make that mistake based on those words is that these are quotes from Hovind. These are Hovind's words indicating that one mammoth was dated to three different ages. The source (which Karen Bartelt read) never said or implied that these three different specimens that were separately identified were the same mammoth. They were from different finds....
 
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I don't understand your last post. Let me clarify.

Kent hovind has those words on his web-site and attributes them to a certain source. Those words claim that different parts of the same mammoth had different C14 ages.

The source itself has different ages for different parts of a mammoth - but they are different mammoths! (and in one case, an ox).

Numerous people have pointed out that the reference does not say what Kent Hovind claims that it does. Some of them have done so in debates with him, IIRC. He has no excuse to continue to make the claim. It is wrong and he knows it. What is left?
 
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By the way, Ambrosia- I trust you to correctly relay what Hovind has told you in the phone calls you have made to him - particularly the part about a man having a right to defend himself against his accusers. Hovind certainly has that right, and has had many opportunities to take advantage of it - in debates, on his on web-site, in reply to many e-mails from many different individuals. Sure a man can face his accusers and defend himself. Its just that he hasn't done so successfully. The ones making the accusations have the facts on their side - at least so far as the facts can be found in the public record. Anyway, my point is, I don't really feel compelled to call him and question him about it myself, because others have done so before me (including you) and shared the results, and because I trust them. And because I surf Hovind's web-site fairly regularly to look for explanations of the falsehoods there - either his defense of them, or his apologies for them.
 
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Cantuar

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I don't think that the Government should possess all the powers that it does.

This is a democracy. As long as people have a chance to change things via the ballot box, it seems a bit eccentric to decide to just ignore them instead.

And as far as the tax thing goes, who says he wasn't paying his taxes?

I thought he did. Doesn't he have a problem with rendering unto Caesar on account of he thinks everything is God's or something?


As far as his PhD is concerned, I thought the point was that he (and/or the university) is keeping it private and not letting anybody have access to it. If it's a genuine piece of research, he shouldn't have a problem letting others in the field have access to it. That's what research is for.
 
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Look, I told you what he told me. Please give me a break. If you don't like what I have said you can do one of three things: call him, change the subject, or leave it alone. As far as I am concerned I am finished throwing these irrelevant matters around anymore.
Also, I do not agree with the democracy thing, it is a matter of opinion. I do believe America was meant to be a republic, but that is a different matter altogether.
Thanks for clearing up the mammoth thing...next phone call, I'll bug him about it.

I think the one big problem that I am having with this whole debate is that I don't really know what you expect of me. Do you want me to agree with you about him? Whether you believe it or not, I actually have gone to the given websites about what a terrible guy Mr. Hovind is and do not agree with the majority of their content. I am sorry that I have a different opinion on how to find out the truth about someone. And maybe I am going about it the wrong way. However, I will find out the truth one way or another because I am seeking it out.
Anyway, I am hopefully through with tossing around these things repeatedly and would like to move on to more interesting conversation. If you guys want to talk about different matters in the same context, great. I am weary of the tax and PhD thing. Like I said, ask him. If you don't want to, then please stop trying to convince me that you are right and I am wrong. If anyone is actually willing to call and bother him about it and you want to share it, then by all means.
Ambrosia
 
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Ambrosia, all I want to convince you of is the simple fact that you should take any information where Hovind is the immediate source to be true until you have verified it by other means. That may mean ditching most any argument you find from him - because all arguments are built on facts, and it is more economical to just go to school yourself, get your own degree and do your own research than to go back and double check every tiny detail of Hovind's work.

That's all. And don't expect us to pay any attention to an argument from him unless someone is willing to do the research and verify for certain that the facts it relies on are correct.
 
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ashibaka

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We seem to be talking about how credible Hovind is here. ;) Well, here's some fodder for thought (from the Kent Hovind Lies page, sorry to spam but Ambrosia appears to be intent on not visiting):

Hovind: "In 1871, Congress scrapped all treaties with the Indians and moved them out to the worst property that they could find. Evolution is largely responsible for what happened to the Indians."

Lie #120. "Origin" was published a full 20 years after the Nunadautsunt. That's pretty good that Darwin managed to force something to happen 20 years before the book which caused it was published...

1802: Indian eviction to the west of the Mississippi suggested by Thomas Jefferson...

1825: Indian eviction to the west of the Mississippi recommended by departing president James Monroe in his final address to Congress....

1829: Indian Removal Act introduced in Congress, with complete approval of President Andrew Jackson, a Christian who joined the Presbyterian church when his presidential office came to term.

1839: Removal of the Cherokees begins. Start of the Nunadautsunt.

1859: Publication of Darwin's "Origin".

[...]

Hovind: "Did you know that Russian teachers come to America to study education because the American educational system is considered the best in the world for teaching students these three principals. This prepares them to be good communists and to doubt the word of God."

Lie #125.

[...]

Hovind: "I was only sixteen, and the brain doesnt even start developing until about twenty."

Lie #[-- What do you think? Is Hovind telling the truth here?? Is it possible that he's talking about something he knows NOTHING about? So why respect his attacks on evolution?]

This is from a series of seminars on Creationism that Hovind offers for sale. I certainly don't want to meet the guy who makes money off of this bunk.

Oh, yes, and Buddika has talked to Hovind about the lies he's exposed. Hovind's response can be seen here.
 
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Originally posted by Jerry Smith
Ambrosia, all I want to convince you of is the simple fact that you should take any information where Hovind is the immediate source to be true until you have verified it by other means.

Yeah, and the best way to verify this information is to check talkorigins and the anti-Kent Hovind sites. Better to get your information third, fourth and fifth hand from people who hate him than to get it directly from the source. If you get it directly from Hovind, you risk getting information that might actually turn out to be true.
 
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If you get it directly from Hovind, you risk getting information that might actually turn out to be true.

What? Like the plesiosaurus dredged up by the Japanese fisherman? That might be true? Like the mammoth who was dated three times with different ages recorded for each part of it? What information can you get from Hovind that might actually be true, and yet still be properly understood to conflict with evolution? I did find a claim of his that checked out - it was about a young Homo erectus. Doesn't contradict evolution, but it was true... anything of Hovinds that is both an effective argument against science and true, that you know of?
 
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Plan 9

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Ambrosia, next time you talk to Mr. Hovind, could you please suggest to him that since he prefers not to answer e-mail letters, he might post something about that on his site or send a form e-mail to people who e-mail him.
I"m asking you for this favor because a non-Christian friend of mine sent him an e-mail a month ago to inquire about the income tax thing and has received no reply.
I'm sure that this is just an oversight on Mr. Hovind's part, but how is he to know that?
I appreciate any help you can give me.~Thanks
 
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Originally posted by IdahoAmber
I really don't see why the whole tax thing is such a huge deal.

Because it is utterly the worst possible lie possible.  If he lied in these circumstances it is hard to imagine ANY circumstances which he would not be willing to lie.

In American society the place where one is under the greatest obligation to tell the truth is in a  court of law.  Indeed if our country is to have either a fair or an effective judicial system it must be able to demand that those under oath in a court of law speak the truth as they understand it.   Anyone under oath (or affirmation) must give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  

What makes it even worse is the circumstances in which the lie was made.  It is certainly very understandible (though not justifiable) that someone will lie under oath to avoid being executed or spending a good chunk of their life in jail.  It is also understandable (though again utterly unjustifiable) to lie under oath to avoid severe personal embarassment.  Why did Hovind, in this case, lie?  He lied so he could avoid his civic responsiblity and legal oblication to pay his taxes.  Furthermore he knowingly tried to misuse the bankruptsy court in order to evade paying taxes.  That court, BTW, is paid for by  my taxes.  (Also consider how overloaded judicial dockets are these days: his false suit almost certainly delayed justice for others.) 

I pay my taxes and file, to the best of my ability,  accurate returns.  I would do so even if the remote possiblity of being audited did not exist.    That this man would lie in court in order not to pay is very disgusting to me, especially for someone one who talks so must about being moral.    From this alone and not from any view he has about creation/evolution would result in an absolutely low assessment of his character.   The next time you use a road consider that it was built using tax dollars -- tax dollars Hovind tried not to pay.  The next time you see a police or fireman consider they can exist only via taxes.  Consider that the soldiers who risk their lives for us are supported by taxes.  How about the many medical and scientific breakthroughs that are paid for by taxes?  How about the education of children especially of families who could not afford to educate them if it was not provided to them?  How about parks?

In short, Hovind deserves to spend some time in something that taxpayers also pay for: a jail cell.  And I will support the same for any evolutionist who has done the same.

So irregardless of anything about creation/evolution it is established that Hovind willing to lie even in where he has the greatest legal and moral responsiblity to tell the truth. This alone would make anything he said, unless independently verified, exist under a cloud of doubt.  That he has a financial interest in creationism does not help either.  But all that not withstanding, we have indisputable evidence that Hovind does make many false statements in the creation/evolution debate.  The number and severity of these falsehoods and that they have been debunked many times are enough to demonstrate that he is not going through much effort to be accurate.  Indeed his statements on radiocarbon and mammoths to be suggest outright lying.   Not being honest in scientific matters is also something I take a very dim view of though not nearly as much as lying in court to try to avoid paying taxes.

And if he was not disgusting enough, Hovind is also an anti-semite.  He is selling Fourth Reich of the Rich and has endorsed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. 

He is also a bit of a nut.  He been claiming for at least several years that some people in Arkansas pay groceries by having their hands scanned.   Currently, according to his own accounts, he has spent nearly $100,000 of the money that people have donated to him to avoid paying a $50 fine because he says the laws of the state of Florida (in particular the building code) does not apply to him.   If I was a creationist who donated money, I would be dismayed by that kind of waste of money.

Kent Hovind is simply beyond any sort of defense.  He is a man without any honesty or notion of civic responsiblity.  He is a kook and a bigot who is duping the public with "facts" which simply not true.

How can anyone defend this man?

 
 
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Originally posted by Plan 9
He has openly endorsed "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"??!!! Is this on a link of his??!!

There is a brief article on his anti-semitism at

http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-4r10.html

(Scroll down to second story)

Hovind is selling Fourth Reich of the Rich at:

http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=products&grp=15

BTW, the judge's decision on Hovind's Bankruptsy case is now online:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind-decision.html 

 
 
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A liar. I can say no more on this subject. I am weary and I give up. He can defend himself. I guess I have finally learned one truth in my life....that people only hear what they want to hear and only repeat what they want to be true. I have told everyone here numerous times why he filed for bankrupcy, but no one is interested in that. Why should you be? Heck, if he were an honest man, then maybe evolution would be wrong and there might be proof for the existance of God. Oh, but that is truly unthinkable.

All of you are quite mistaken if you think I want to believe him so I can have proof of God's existance. I already know God exists, I do have a brain after all. I won't lie to any of you, though, whether or not you care. I want to believe him because I have needed someone to believe in for a long, long time. There I said it. No, I didn't make up anything that I have said, 'cause like it or not, I hate lying. But if you guys are really interested in the truth, I'll give it to you:

I hate people who use others for their own gain. I hate how this country allows people to get away with adultary, homosexuality, pre-marital sex, and abortion. I hate how no one cares enough to stop pronograhpy, I hate how people are quick to condemn prayer and saying "Jesus is Lord" in a public place and in the next moment wonder why this world's going to Hell. I hate how I was taught to do whatever makes me feel good, then have people turn their back when I didn't do things the way they wanted. I hate how everyone is so quick to mock, lie, and condemn people while they turn around and do the same things. I hate how everyone can tell me how to think and what to believe, but when I suggest that they act compassionate for five minutes, I am stupid; I am wrong; I am childish.
Yes, maybe I am prejudiced about this Kent Hovind thing. At least I'll say so. I need someone to believe in, apparently that's asking a lot.

Maybe he is a lliar, why not, everyone else seems to be. I want to believe what he says because it gives me a reason to think that this life is worth more than, "You're born, you live, you die. You're worthless." Maybe that liar could reach something that everyone else failed to and I wanted to believe that one person could be honest; sincere. I want to believe a lot.
I could care less about what you people think about Kent Hovind. I came hree to apologize for my actions. I also suggested that, before walking all over him, you call him. Yell, scream, condemn him, but do it so he can hear you, for God's sake. None of you are any better than me if you don't at least if you do, you'll have better reason to hate him.

You know what all of you sound like? Like you can talk really big, until confrontation comes your way. Am I saying that's how you are? No, just what you sound like. If he's lying, he's lying, but I am sick of your bellyaching. What's your excuse? He's already been proven wrong. Why don't you call him with that news, then, so he'll shut his big mouth abd leave everyone alone.

Heck, I just spilled my guts to a bunch of people who could care less. Would it kill you to call him? No. It sure didn't harm me. Then again, maybe it did.
 
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