Isn't this the guy who calls himself Dr. Dino? A person could be forgiven for thinking the two words had something to do with each other and that the "Dr." reflected some sort of expertise in research on dinosaurs.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Kent Hovind
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Ambrosia,
This is not a case of character assassination because of Hovind's beliefs. Ask any of us here what we think of Kurt Wise. You will see that we are capable of respecting the honesty of a person whose beliefs conflict with our own. I do not respect Wise' position, but I respect him as an honest and trustworthy participant. I also respect his credentials and training.
I cannot "prove" to you that Hovind's degree came from a diploma mill. However, he admits that it comes from Patriot University (which no longer sells PhD's by the way). It should not take much research on your part to understand why Patriot is only Accredited by an equally non-rigorous "Accreditation mill". It is not a bona fide university with a bona fide PhD program.
Bear in mind, that this isn't a matter of U of West Florida (in Hovind's home town) versus Harvard. This is a matter of entirely different scope. I have a four year University in my own home-town that does not even offer a PhD program. This is for the simple reason that they cannot afford the kind of highest-quality staff and resources that it requires. A PhD by your name means that you have spent years of your life doing the most rigorous and demanding training possible in a field in order to prepare yourself to do new research in that field, or pass knowledge about it to the next generation. To put a PhD after your name after sending off a five page essay and fifty dollars to a diploma mill is just plain dishonest, and an insult to those who had to knuckle down and earn theirs.
Edited to add -- I hope you will consult with Hovind on these matters, and where possible check his responses to you for accuracy.
Furthermore, if you would like to pick one of his claims of fact and post it here, I would be glad to discuss the accuracy of it with you.
Jerry
This is not a case of character assassination because of Hovind's beliefs. Ask any of us here what we think of Kurt Wise. You will see that we are capable of respecting the honesty of a person whose beliefs conflict with our own. I do not respect Wise' position, but I respect him as an honest and trustworthy participant. I also respect his credentials and training.
I cannot "prove" to you that Hovind's degree came from a diploma mill. However, he admits that it comes from Patriot University (which no longer sells PhD's by the way). It should not take much research on your part to understand why Patriot is only Accredited by an equally non-rigorous "Accreditation mill". It is not a bona fide university with a bona fide PhD program.
Bear in mind, that this isn't a matter of U of West Florida (in Hovind's home town) versus Harvard. This is a matter of entirely different scope. I have a four year University in my own home-town that does not even offer a PhD program. This is for the simple reason that they cannot afford the kind of highest-quality staff and resources that it requires. A PhD by your name means that you have spent years of your life doing the most rigorous and demanding training possible in a field in order to prepare yourself to do new research in that field, or pass knowledge about it to the next generation. To put a PhD after your name after sending off a five page essay and fifty dollars to a diploma mill is just plain dishonest, and an insult to those who had to knuckle down and earn theirs.
Edited to add -- I hope you will consult with Hovind on these matters, and where possible check his responses to you for accuracy.
Furthermore, if you would like to pick one of his claims of fact and post it here, I would be glad to discuss the accuracy of it with you.
Jerry
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- Jul 9, 2002
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If you wish to discuss Kent Hovind on this site about creation science vs evolution, why not discuss the theories he promotes and whether they are backed up by evidense and leave the character assasination and other personal information on the sidelines. The scientific facts are there to discuss, why not talk about them? 
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food4thought,
It's only character assassination if it's false or irrevelent.
The fact that Hovind is a liar and a cheat does establish that his an untrustable source. Basically, it goes to his integrety and credibility.
It's only character assassination if it's false or irrevelent.
The fact that Hovind is a liar and a cheat does establish that his an untrustable source. Basically, it goes to his integrety and credibility.
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His theories are intimately linked to the facts as he represents them. If he cannot be trusted to accurately represent the facts from which he builds his theories, there is no call to even entertain the theories. If he cannot be trusted to accurately reflect the facts about his own credentials (and feels it necessary to use deception to bolster his credibility), then it isn't reasonable to trust his representation of the facts. Still, I am willing to debate his theories as long as it is one point at a time, and I am not expected to debate his whole web-presentation and demonstrate every error found there with extensive documentation all at once.
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I just finished slogging through that review. My high school teachers wouldn't accept work like that. Anyone who thinks it's PhD-worthy has apparantly never read a real thesis.
I'm with Jerry. I'm quite capable of dealing with each of claims, one after the other. However, I think it's quite important to anyone using him as a source to realize the man is a noted chear and liar, whose degree is as bogus as they come.
His work reminds me of Hubbard and Scientology, in that way.
I'm with Jerry. I'm quite capable of dealing with each of claims, one after the other. However, I think it's quite important to anyone using him as a source to realize the man is a noted chear and liar, whose degree is as bogus as they come.
His work reminds me of Hubbard and Scientology, in that way.
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Lanakila
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To be honest alot of people that get their PHds or doctorates at degree mills think they are legitimate degrees and are offended if you say its not. That doesn't mean Dr Dino's degree is legit, only that I understand his arguing for it. I know of quite a few people with honorary doctorates who still call themselves Dr so and so. This is offensive to the actual persons who work and sacrifice for years to get that PHd or doctorate. This kind of reminds me of when they changed the standard headgear for Army soldiers to the black beret. Well, this still offends many Army Rangers and former Army Rangers, because they worked and gave blood, sweat and tears to earn that black beret, and with the stroke of the pen it was changed and everyone in the Army wears them now.
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seebs
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And this is an improvement? If I wanted a priest, I'd go to a church. If I want an academic, I want to go to an actual *school*. With qualified academics and a respectable program.
And what, exactly, would be the point? If that man were going to be compelled to speak the truth, it would have happened by now. What am I supposed to do, get new stories which are even harder to verify, or confirm, or deny? Get more run-arounds?
The problem, in some part, is that he's an exceptionally charismatic man. He will always be very good at providing the words that would convince you...
I would call any degree from a bogus institution "lying"; the sole purpose of the degree is to bypass the normal process for getting that qualification. It becomes a fallacy of appeal to authority.
As to his arguments, *they are wrong*. At least, so far, I haven't seen a single coherent argument from him. I've seen misleading, false, or out-of-date claims. I've seen rhetoric. I've seen misstatements about the opposition, and so on... But never once anything that I'd call a real argument.
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I have a question, why don't you guys email him and call him for yourself? instead of claiming things that you HEAR? or READ? Its amazing that people are quick to believe other things that people write about someone, but they won't even go straight to the person themselves. I once had a rumor spread about me. A hurtful one, and you know what? NOT ONE PERSON CAME TO ASK ME IF IT WAS TRUE. How would you feel if that happened to you?
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seebs
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Well, for one thing, because when I look at things he *does* say, I find enough of them to be false that I am not optimistic that he'll give me a straight answer.
The fact is, he portrays his degree as a real academic degree, and there's *no* corroboration for this claim.
The fact is, he portrays his degree as a real academic degree, and there's *no* corroboration for this claim.
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Um, we don't have to ask if it's true. You see, the things we're calling him a liar about are a matter of public record. It's not a "he said, she said" sort of thing. It's not over private matters that no one else knows.
It's about publically available knowledge: Where did he get his degree? Did he make this particular claim? Is he involved in this court case?
It's about publically available knowledge: Where did he get his degree? Did he make this particular claim? Is he involved in this court case?
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Amber, there's is no point in trying to talk them into calling him. I will not defend him further to people who are not willing to even post questions here for me to ask him myself.
I must say that I am very sorry for being the only one (except Amber) who can be fooled on this post. I am glad to hear that everyone else has it together and knows how to defeat all of Kent Hovind's "arguements". I wish I possessed the knowledge that they do, Amber. It's really quite amazing how I am the only person who has been lied too. How I am the only person foolish enough to confront the man about his short comings. It also amazes me that Kent Hovind is really stupid enough to think that he could fool brillant minds with his meaningless words. Sad how he wastes his time, his life, telling nothing but lies.
It is truly puzzeling to me that anyone would lie like he has, then proceed to travel around the country to be laughed at and mocked. I guess his life is truly empty. If I were him, I wouldn't bother. Why do what he has done? We all know how much he has gained. A bad reputation, both Christain and Atheist gossiping about him, less time with his family....what a waste of breath.
I said before that I will call him, see what he has to say, and go from there. If he's wrong, he's wrong. If he's not and everything here is wrong, fine. Sorry I wasted everyone's time with my mindless post. You all obviously have it together.
I must say that I am very sorry for being the only one (except Amber) who can be fooled on this post. I am glad to hear that everyone else has it together and knows how to defeat all of Kent Hovind's "arguements". I wish I possessed the knowledge that they do, Amber. It's really quite amazing how I am the only person who has been lied too. How I am the only person foolish enough to confront the man about his short comings. It also amazes me that Kent Hovind is really stupid enough to think that he could fool brillant minds with his meaningless words. Sad how he wastes his time, his life, telling nothing but lies.
It is truly puzzeling to me that anyone would lie like he has, then proceed to travel around the country to be laughed at and mocked. I guess his life is truly empty. If I were him, I wouldn't bother. Why do what he has done? We all know how much he has gained. A bad reputation, both Christain and Atheist gossiping about him, less time with his family....what a waste of breath.
I said before that I will call him, see what he has to say, and go from there. If he's wrong, he's wrong. If he's not and everything here is wrong, fine. Sorry I wasted everyone's time with my mindless post. You all obviously have it together.
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Nikole,
They do sound like they have it ALLLLLLLLL together. Don't you think? I mean can't get any smarter than that!
They do sound like they have it ALLLLLLLLL together. Don't you think? I mean can't get any smarter than that!
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You guys sound upset. Let me tell you something about me. If I had been caught in a lie, had been exposed for deception about my credentials, and had numerous mistakes pointed out from my work (which work by the way was aimed toward destroying the work of others in the first place) - I hope that I would have the integrity to go public with apologies to the people who I had mislead, and to change my ways. I don't think I would wait on individuals to contact me for an explanation & then smooth talk them.
Even if all of these things that had been exposed about me were wrong, and I was actually not guilty of any of them, I would be out in the public proving my innoncence. I wouldn't defend myself one individual at a time.
All of this especially if my ministry was a nation-wide influence..
Did either of you call Jim Baker up when he was exposed? Did you give Jimmy Swaggart the opportunity to plead not guilty to a court of one?
Hovind has chosen his profession as a critic of science, and chosen to pursue it at the cost of his own integrity. Don't blame the victims.
Even if all of these things that had been exposed about me were wrong, and I was actually not guilty of any of them, I would be out in the public proving my innoncence. I wouldn't defend myself one individual at a time.
All of this especially if my ministry was a nation-wide influence..
Did either of you call Jim Baker up when he was exposed? Did you give Jimmy Swaggart the opportunity to plead not guilty to a court of one?
Hovind has chosen his profession as a critic of science, and chosen to pursue it at the cost of his own integrity. Don't blame the victims.
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Victims? Whose blaming victims? Amber and I are not blaming anyone for Kent Hovind's mistakes, lies, etc. We're saying ask him about these things. If you don't think it should work that way you are entitled not too.
I agree with you on certain things, Jerry. If I were in his shoes, I would either apologize or expose lies against me. On the other hand, if he isn't lying, I understand why he doesn't go public everytime someone accuses him of something. It's very easy to get frustrated and fed up when you repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and people still don't get it. Maybe he is ignoring all the rumors. Maybe he's a liar. Maybe...
The simple fact is that if you don't want to bother with him, don't bother with him. Ignore what I say. Ignore what he says. I do care, however, so I am going to ask him. I will not take his word for certain things, but for personal things, I guess I'll just have to see what he has to say. At least give the man a chance to defend himself. If you don't care, great. I do. And if we are going to discuss it, then we should care. If not, we have no business discussing it at all.
This is how I see it....People make mistakes. I makle mistakes. if I decided to go public and do seminars, I am not going to expose all of my past for scrutiny. I have done things I'm not proud of and I have dealt with them. Is He supposed to be perfect? No, people just watch him more closely because of what he talks about. If he is (right now, at this moment) a liar, dishonest, unwilling to give defense or remorse for his past dealings, then I agree with everyone here. If the opposite is true, then I could care less about everyone else's problems with him. I don't blame anyone for what he has done, those were his mistakes. I just think batting his mistakes around as if he were subhuman is a little...wrong.
if no one else cares, I do. Whatever.
I agree with you on certain things, Jerry. If I were in his shoes, I would either apologize or expose lies against me. On the other hand, if he isn't lying, I understand why he doesn't go public everytime someone accuses him of something. It's very easy to get frustrated and fed up when you repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and people still don't get it. Maybe he is ignoring all the rumors. Maybe he's a liar. Maybe...
The simple fact is that if you don't want to bother with him, don't bother with him. Ignore what I say. Ignore what he says. I do care, however, so I am going to ask him. I will not take his word for certain things, but for personal things, I guess I'll just have to see what he has to say. At least give the man a chance to defend himself. If you don't care, great. I do. And if we are going to discuss it, then we should care. If not, we have no business discussing it at all.
This is how I see it....People make mistakes. I makle mistakes. if I decided to go public and do seminars, I am not going to expose all of my past for scrutiny. I have done things I'm not proud of and I have dealt with them. Is He supposed to be perfect? No, people just watch him more closely because of what he talks about. If he is (right now, at this moment) a liar, dishonest, unwilling to give defense or remorse for his past dealings, then I agree with everyone here. If the opposite is true, then I could care less about everyone else's problems with him. I don't blame anyone for what he has done, those were his mistakes. I just think batting his mistakes around as if he were subhuman is a little...wrong.
if no one else cares, I do. Whatever.
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seebs
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Okay, could you clarify exactly what I should expect when I ask him these things?
Imagine that I say "Mr. Hovind, can you tell me what respected academics were involved in the degree program you were in?". Do you honestly expect that there is a true, informative, answer to this that does not make it abundantly clear that his degree is a sham?
He has made public statements, repeatedly, that he has been told are false, and he has not offered any counterargument to the claims that they are false. I can only conclude that he's lying.
I don't expect anyone to be perfect - but I don't see any reason to take anything Hovind says seriously. The only conclusion I can draw is that he is intentionally taking advantage of people who are desperate to believe that someone "educated" supports their beliefs.
He may not be subhuman, but he's not making a very good case for his beliefs. He should care; he doesn't seem to, which suggests that the important part, for him, is the sale of the videotapes.
Imagine that I say "Mr. Hovind, can you tell me what respected academics were involved in the degree program you were in?". Do you honestly expect that there is a true, informative, answer to this that does not make it abundantly clear that his degree is a sham?
He has made public statements, repeatedly, that he has been told are false, and he has not offered any counterargument to the claims that they are false. I can only conclude that he's lying.
I don't expect anyone to be perfect - but I don't see any reason to take anything Hovind says seriously. The only conclusion I can draw is that he is intentionally taking advantage of people who are desperate to believe that someone "educated" supports their beliefs.
He may not be subhuman, but he's not making a very good case for his beliefs. He should care; he doesn't seem to, which suggests that the important part, for him, is the sale of the videotapes.
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As I mentioned when you opened this thread, I really admire the way you are willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt that way. As far as givining him a chance to defend himself, well - he already has one. www.drdino.com - plenty of bandwidth for the job. I honestly don't know for sure that he is a liar. All of the evidence points to one simple fact.. one cannot trust anything he says at face value. It just doesn't make sense to listen to someone like that, and use them as a source of information.
By the way, I did ask you a couple of things about how he responded to you... if you do talk to him and do ask him about those couple of things (the PhD & the Bankrupcy filing) I would like to know what he says. Also, if he has anything to say about the (strike "mammal" insert MAMMOTH) dating problem, I'd like to know that too.
By the way, I did ask you a couple of things about how he responded to you... if you do talk to him and do ask him about those couple of things (the PhD & the Bankrupcy filing) I would like to know what he says. Also, if he has anything to say about the (strike "mammal" insert MAMMOTH) dating problem, I'd like to know that too.
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Or was it bullfrog proteins?Yes Jerry I plan on questioning him about those things. As soon as I get the answers (or if I don't) I will post them here.
Seebs, I don't know what he will say. I don't know what to expect. Like I said, if you don't want to call him, don't. I need proof to believe people as well, but on the things we have been discussing about his character, we need a different kind of proof...will he deny the evidence or will he defend himself? I understand his stance on income tax. I don't understand the filing for bankrupcy thing, so I'll ask him why he should be believed when he was so dishonest about that.
I don't know how many of you have listened to his tapes, but he has a big problem with the government and all the powers it holds. If this tax evasion thing ties into his beliefs about the government and taxes, if nothing else, at least he's consistant. I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I have nothing against anyone here, my only tiff was that suppposedly all of Hovind's arguments can be destroyed. I don't agree. Maybe he is a liar, but he has some truth mixed in. Others agree with many points he made. Actually I was reading a book last night that touched on points that Hovind makes. It's called Ancient Secrets of the Bible by Charles E. Seller and Brian Russell.
Guess, if nothing else, I'll get closer to finding the info that I need so I can get onto more interesting topics.
Ambrosia
Seebs, I don't know what he will say. I don't know what to expect. Like I said, if you don't want to call him, don't. I need proof to believe people as well, but on the things we have been discussing about his character, we need a different kind of proof...will he deny the evidence or will he defend himself? I understand his stance on income tax. I don't understand the filing for bankrupcy thing, so I'll ask him why he should be believed when he was so dishonest about that.
I don't know how many of you have listened to his tapes, but he has a big problem with the government and all the powers it holds. If this tax evasion thing ties into his beliefs about the government and taxes, if nothing else, at least he's consistant. I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I have nothing against anyone here, my only tiff was that suppposedly all of Hovind's arguments can be destroyed. I don't agree. Maybe he is a liar, but he has some truth mixed in. Others agree with many points he made. Actually I was reading a book last night that touched on points that Hovind makes. It's called Ancient Secrets of the Bible by Charles E. Seller and Brian Russell.
Guess, if nothing else, I'll get closer to finding the info that I need so I can get onto more interesting topics.
Ambrosia
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Ambrosia - if you find a particularly compelling single point of Hovind's and would like to post it here, I will do my best to show how the point fails (if indeed you pick one that does fail). You may, if you like, tell him about our exchange and see what response he has to my arguments... although it creeps me to think about debating KH. I won't do his whole caboodle at once, or any single point that has to break down to the rest of his caboodle during argument.. if you know what I mean. As long as we just take one "point" at a time, I can do as many of them as you like...
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