k1 chart - open for discussion

[Spiritual Jew]

You have no evidence for a 7 year period. Of exactly 2520 days.
Beside the fact of what is Prophesied for the second half of 1260 days, has not yet happened.

You don't have any explicit evidence for a 7000 year history of mankind, either, but you believe in that, anyway. So, apparently, you are capable of believing something even if it's not explicitly spelled out for you.

Paul cannot mean that we become all knowing, just that we desire to do His Commandments.

Why do you place limitations on what the all knowing Holy Spirit can and is willing to teach us? I don't think you understand what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 2 at all.

Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings.

LOL. No. Why would this "invading leader" even care about these meaningless sacrifices and offerings?

Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

And what would be the purpose of these supposed sacrifices and offerings? This is at least the third time I've asked you this. Is there some reason why you won't answer this question? Until you do, I can only assume that you have no answer for it.

 

[eclipsenow]

The final 7 years begin in Revelation with the rider on the white horse, given a crown.

So you say - but for a book that's quite happy to drop significant numbers when it wants to, it is remarkably absent from Revelation 19. So is the very name Gog / Magog.

You have yet to prove that Revelation 19 is Gog, rather, John could be bringing to mind the more generic curses of God on the disobedient. Simply, Revelation 19 doesn't mention Gog but does mention the animals part of Deuteronomy 28 - while John mentions the other curses in Deuteronomy at other parts of Revelation as he clusters them together in groups of 7.

Deuteronomy 28:25 "The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you."

The crown is that he will be anointed the King of Israel, making him the Antichrist.

Not sure which crown you're talking about - but Revelation 19 shows the end of the world and judgement of all God's enemies and Satan - as it does again in Revelation 20. That's because Revelation is thematic, not linear: descriptive, not prescriptive.

The Gog/Magog event takes place right before then.

No it doesn't! The passage DOESN'T spell it out then but uses OTHER imagery to discuss the final defeat of all God's enemies - including the beast being thrown into the fire. John refers to Deuteronomy 28 to show how this is the great judgement of God's enemies.

THEN John does it all again in Revelation 20 - from a slightly different perspective - just to make sure we've got the message. And he uses Gog as a representative of ALL God's enemies again - which is what Ezekiel was doing in the first place! It's all symbolic imagery - and here are the futurists trying to read it literally.

 

[Douggg]

You have yet to prove that Revelation 19 is Gog, rather, John could be bringing to mind the more generic curses of God on the disobedient. Simply, Revelation 19 doesn't mention Gog but does mention the animals part of Deuteronomy 28 - while John mentions the other curses in Deuteronomy at other parts of Revelation as he clusters them together in groups of 7.

The proof that Ezekiel 39:17-20 is Revelation 19:17-18, is that the gathering of the elect takes place right after Jesus returns.

Ezekiel 39:28 is Matthew 24:31 which takes place when Jesus has come back to this earth in Matthew 24:30.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Gathering the children of Israel back to the land of Israel is a promise that God made back in Deuteronomy 30:4-6, once they have corrected what had caused them to be exiled out of the land. Note the phrase in Matthew 24:31 - from one end of heaven to the other - is also found in Deuteronomy 30, verse 4.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Verse 6 is Ezekiel 39:29

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[Douggg]

No it doesn't! The passage DOESN'T spell it out then but uses OTHER imagery to discuss the final defeat of all God's enemies - including the beast being thrown into the fire. John refers to Deuteronomy 28 to show how this is the great judgement of God's enemies.

Gog/Magog is not generic. Specific nations are referred to in Ezekiel 38. Plus the region that Gog comes from is from the north.

Not sure which crown you're talking about - but Revelation 19 shows the end of the world and judgement of all God's enemies and Satan - as it does again in Revelation 20. That's because Revelation is thematic, not linear: descriptive, not prescriptive.

eclipsenow, do you know what the problem is - why we are disagreeing?

It appears is because you don't know what the Jews (Judaism) believes about the messiah. Their belief about the messiah is not the same as Christians - i.e. the Savior of mankind from the consequences of sin.

They believe that the messiah will be a great King of Israel descended from David to come to power at the time of the end and usher in the messianic age of peace and safety.

The crown given the rider on the white horse is that person becoming the King of Israel, thought to be messiah, by the Jews. But in actuality will be the Antichrist.

From Judaism 101 site...

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought.

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

______________________________________________________________

What does the rider on the white horse do? He is a great military leader.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

As Gog/Magog appears to be imminent, the little horn person will mobilize the defense force of the ten kings and place them in Greece, the territory of one of the four breakup kingdoms of Alexander, to present a deterrent... in hopes that the show of force will discourage Gog/Magog from going through with their invasion of Israel.

Mr. Putin, who it appears is Gog, will not be swayed and invades anyway.

God supernaturally destroys Gog's army.

In the aftermath, the little horn brings his army into the middle east, on the premise of peace keeper. But for the ten kings the underlying reason will be to possess all of the oil there.

The Jews will see the little horn's intentions as him fighting the battle of God in defending Israel. And being a Jew, they will embrace the little horn person,as their messiah, and he will be anointed the King of Israel.

From the Judaism 101 site....

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

So they are quoting Ezekiel 38:16 being before the time of the mashiach (messiah).
____________________________________________________________

If you look at what is going on right now in Ukraine. Zelensky is showing himself to be a great political leader and military leader. Just as the Jews are expecting of the messiah person. And messiah talk is already being attached to him - in the song, can one man save the world?

We are the doorstep to eternity.

 

[keras]

You don't have any explicit evidence for a 7000 year history of mankind, either, but you believe in that, anyway.

Yes, I do. I have done the careful additions of the given time periods in the Bible and of the historical record. They prove the exact 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Jesus and now to the Return of Jesus in about 10 years, then the thousand years of His Millennium reign.
Total 7000 years decreed for mankind.

And what would be the purpose of these supposed sacrifices and offerings? This is at least the third time I've asked you this. Is there some reason why you won't answer this question? Until you do, I can only assume that you have no answer for it.

This is just a rhetoric question; [demand], that I as a human being cannot answer.
It is what God wants, as I have shown in many prophesies. Which you prefer to ignore, to your discredit.

The crown given the rider on the white horse is that person becoming the King of Israel, thought to be messiah, by the Jews. But in actuality will be the Antichrist.

This theory cannot happen, as the Jewish State will be gone after the Sixth Seal has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 6:11-13, +

 

[eclipsenow]

The proof that Ezekiel 39:15-20 is Revelation 19:17-18, is that the gathering of the elect takes place right after Jesus returns.

Except that's what you're putting all over the passage. The bible doesn't work like that.
The OT provides background for understanding the NT. But the NT often explicitly reinterprets the OT.

John uses Gog when he wants to. And he didn't use it in Rev 19.

Instead he uses the more generic "animals eating carcasses" image from Deuteronomy.

Also, Revelation 19 is Judgement Day and the end of the world.
So is Revelation 6.
So is Revelation 20.
Read them!

 

[Douggg]

This theory cannot happen, as the Jewish State will be gone after the Sixth Seal has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 6:11-13, +

Ezekiel 38- Ezekiel 39 is about Israel, a nation currently unbelievers in Jesus. That will change in the middle part of the seven years, and the Jews en-masse become Christians.

 

[Douggg]

Except that's what you're putting all over the passage. The bible doesn't work like that.
The OT provides background for understanding the NT. But the NT often explicitly reinterprets the OT.

John uses Gog when he wants to. And he didn't use it in Rev 19.

Instead he uses the more generic "animals eating carcasses" image from Deuteronomy.

Also, Revelation 19 is Judgement Day and the end of the world.
So is Revelation 6.
So is Revelation 20.
Read them!

There are TWO events in Ezekiel 39 of the dead bodies feasted upon by the birds and wild animals.

1. On Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:1-16
2. 7 years later, Ezekiel 39:17-20, on the nations that gather at Armageddon of make war on Jesus.

In Revelation 19, Gog is not mentioned BECAUSE Revelation 19 is NOT the Gog/Magog event.

Sorry for the caps, not yelling at you - I just want to emphasize the point.

__________________________________________

btw, I made a typo in a previous post. It is not Ezekiel 39:15-20, but Ezekiel 39:17-20. I went back and fixed it.

 

[eclipsenow]

Ezekiel 38- Ezekiel 39 is about Israel, a nation currently unbelievers in Jesus. That will change in the middle part of the seven years, and the Jews en-masse become Christians.

There is no literal 7 years.
You're importing a literal 7 years from a symbolic Gog from a highly symbolic prophetic book, Ezekiel, over a symbolic book, Revelation, which says other symbolic thematic theological things about the period we live in. And you're trying to read it all out of context, match up whatever bits and pieces you want, and FORCE them into a pattern that just isn't there.

READ Revelation 20.
It's Gog, then the end of the world. There is no 7 years!

 

[keras]

Ezekiel 38- Ezekiel 39 is about Israel, a nation currently unbelievers in Jesus. That will change in the middle part of the seven years, and the Jews en-masse become Christians.

You ignore the Prophesies which plainly say that the Jews will be virtually destroyed and only a remnant will survive.

 

[Douggg]

You ignore the Prophesies which plainly say that the Jews will be virtually destroyed and only a remnant will survive.

The Jews have been highly persecuted over the past 2000 years. The last great persecution was the Holocaust of WWII. The objective was annihilating the Jewish people.

6 million were killed. But a remnant survived, and following WWII, migrated to the land of Israel and the nation of Israel was born on May 14, 1948, fulfilling Isaiah 66:7-8, a nation borne in a day.

Ezekiel 38 - Ezekiel 39 is about Israel, a people exiled and come back to the land.

Beulah is not in the text, and is found in only one place in the bible, Isaiah 62.4. Beulah is not the title of the nation, but a moniker for the land when the Jewish people return to it, and eventually become Christians. In the same verse, Isaiah 62:4, they will have had previously an opposite moniker put on them as being "Forsaken".

 

[Douggg]

READ Revelation 20.
It's Gog, then the end of the world. There is no 7 years!

Again, the former Gog/Magog nations will be involved in the final rebellion by Satan to attempt to destroy the saints. The camp of the saints in Revelation 20:8-9 is Israel, Jerusalem.

1. Ezekiel 38-39 - Gog/Magog event, soon to happen.

2. Then the 7 years, immediately following Gog/Magog

3. Then Jesus returns, ending the 7 years.

4. Then the thousand year reign of Jesus on this present earth.

5. Then at the end of the thousand years, the Revelation 20:8-9 event, involving the former Gog/Magog nations, no 7 years following.

 

[DavidPT]

5. Then at the end of the thousand years, the Revelation 20:8-9 event, involving the former Gog/Magog nations, no 7 years following.

You are kind of proving eclipsenow's point since that is exactly what eclipsenow said--no 7 years after Gog.

The question is, is there a battle involving Gog before the thousand years, and another battle involving Gog after the thousand years?


Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

Verse 11 says this---I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude

If this is the fate of Gog and all his multitude before the thousand years, does this mean the Gog and his multitude in Revelation 20 are meaning the rest of the dead who lived not again until the thousand years are finished?

IOW, does this mean Gog and his multitude are literally raised from the dead in order to fulfill what is recorded in Revelation 20 after the thousand years? After all, verse 11 clearly has Gog and his multitude dead and buried. While Revelation 20 has Gog and multitude still alive and well. This is clearly problematic for Premill, and I know it is and have been knowing it is for quite some time.


If I was an Amill I would be using Ezekiel 38-39 to try and disprove Premill. Except some Amills don't think anything recorded in Ezekiel 38-39 is even involving endtimes, that it is involving an ancient battle that already happened. That means Ezekiel 39:11 is equally problematic for their view as well since that verse has Gog and his multitude dead and buried while Revelation 20 has them still alive and well until God devours them with fire out of heaven.

 

[keras]

Ezekiel 38 - Ezekiel 39 is about Israel, a people exiled and come back to the land.

But not the Jewish State: only the Israelites of God.
Proved by:
Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit.
Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the Way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.

1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5

2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Followers of the right Way. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers under Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

 

[eclipsenow]

Ezekiel 38 - Ezekiel 39 is about Israel, a people exiled and come back to the land.

Newsflash! Cyrus lets Jews go home!
The latest from the newsroom is that here in 538 BC, King Cyrus - father of many nations - let the Jews go home! As the Britannica says:

Although the Jews suffered greatly and faced powerful cultural pressures in a foreign land, they maintained their national spirit and religious identity. Elders supervised the Jewish communities, and Ezekiel was one of several prophets who kept alive the hope of one day returning home. This was possibly also the period when synagogues were first established, for the Jews observed the Sabbath and religious holidays, practiced circumcision, and substituted prayers for former ritual sacrifices in the Temple. The degree to which the Jews looked upon Cyrus the Great as their benefactor and a servant of their God is reflected at several points in the Hebrew Bible—e.g., at Isaiah 45:1–3, where he is actually called God’s anointed.

 

[Douggg]

There is no literal 7 years.
You're importing a literal 7 years from a symbolic Gog from a highly symbolic prophetic book, Ezekiel, over a symbolic book, Revelation, which says other symbolic thematic theological things about the period we live in. And you're trying to read it all out of context, match up whatever bits and pieces you want, and FORCE them into a pattern that just isn't there.

That there is a literal 7 years in Revelation is by the first half and second half components of it given in the text.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

second half
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5

 

[Douggg]

Newsflash! Cyrus lets Jews go home!

But not in the latter years, latter days. Ezekiel 38:8. Ezekiel 38:16.

 

[Douggg]

You are kind of proving eclipsenow's point since that is exactly what eclipsenow said--no 7 years after Gog.

The Gog/Magog, eclipsenow is referring to in Revelation 20:8-9 is NOT the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39.

I was not proving his point, but clarifying why there are no 7 years follow Revelation 20:8-9. BECAUSE the Revelation 20:8-9 event is NOT the Ezekiel 38-39 event.

 

[DavidPT]

The Gog/Magog, eclipsenow is referring to in Revelation 20:8-9 is NOT the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39.

I was not proving his point, but clarifying why there are no 7 years follow Revelation 20:8-9. BECAUSE the Revelation 20:8-9 event is NOT the Ezekiel 38-39 event.

How do you propose it can be proved that the Gog/ Magog in Ezekiel 39-39 is not the same Gog/Magog in Revelation 20? If that is something that can be proved it is not problematic for Premill after all.

 

[DavidPT]

That there is a literal 7 years in Revelation is by the first half and second half components of it given in the text.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

second half
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5


View attachment 317734

While I agree with this myself, to place the battle of Gog prior to this rather than after this, does not agree with what is recorded in Ezekiel 39. There are not 2 battles in that chapter. There is only one battle in that chapter. We of course have had this debate before.