K. Hagin & God allowing or causing sickness

Seeking Him

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Exodus 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12 Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak.” 13 But he said, “Oh, my Lord, please send someone else.”
 
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dkbwarrior

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Exodus 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12 Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak.” 13 But he said, “Oh, my Lord, please send someone else.”

I appreciate your attempt to contribute to this conversation. However, proof texts can be offered by both sides of this debate:

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
-James 1:13

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
-John 10:10

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
-James 1:16-17

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
-John 8:44

You have to dig a little deeper than proof texts.

You have to have a theology that explains how it is that the Bible both says that God does not do evil or bring death, lies, or temptation; yet appears to say in other places that he does. And that requires more than a trading of proof texts.

Peace...
 
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dkbwarrior

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God sacrificed His Son to be tortured and die in agony for us
it pleased God scripture says to do this
if God only did what we define as good none of us would be saved

Certainly. But then, even though scripture says this, God didn't plant the nails or hold the hand that scourged him did He? This statement actually proves the point that I am making quite accurately. Who killed Jesus? God? Gods people? Or satan? And satans people? Obviously when the scripture says that God "did" this, it doesn't mean that God Himself did it. But that He allowed it within the confines of the foreknowledge of His will and the laws of creation that He put in motion.

God doesn't direct evil. That would make Him no better than an abusive husband, or an abusive Father. Unfortunately, that is how most poeple view our Father. And it is a lie.

Peace...
 
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Biblicist

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I probably haven't read every post completely so I may have missed a few points but it does seem that maybe one point may not have been adequately addressed and that is with how we define evil.

From any cursory reading of the Old Testament it is not hard to see that God will either cause or allow sickness and death to be inflicted both upon his covenantel people and not only with people groups that do not know him.

So when God kills an individual, a people group or allows famine and pesitlence to fall upon a nation then we cannot deem this to be evil but simply a well considered reaction to human sin and folly which has been sanctioned by a righteous and holy God.
 
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FoundInGrace

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Certainly. But then, even though scripture says this, God didn't plant the nails or hold the hand that scourged him did He? This statement actually proves the point that I am making quite accurately. Who killed Jesus? God? Gods people? Or satan? And satans people? Obviously when the scripture says that God "did" this, it doesn't mean that God Himself did it. But that He allowed it within the confines of the foreknowledge of His will and the laws of creation that He put in motion.

God doesn't direct evil. That would make Him no better than an abusive husband, or an abusive Father. Unfortunately, that is how most poeple view our Father. And it is a lie.

Peace...
God sacrificed His Son sending Him to certain death God killed His Son
if people cant handle that then they are only believing what makes them
comfortable
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Question is do you think God is going to blow and send a sea down on you? Is that where your faith is? Is that what God means to you and what your expectation is?
What does faith and love say?

If you think God is going to send evil down on you... then you are missing the whole ponit.
 
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Seeking Him

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I appreciate your attempt to contribute to this conversation. However, proof texts can be offered by both sides of this debate:

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
-James 1:13

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
-John 10:10

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
-James 1:16-17

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
-John 8:44

You have to dig a little deeper than proof texts.

You have to have a theology that explains how it is that the Bible both says that God does not do evil or bring death, lies, or temptation; yet appears to say in other places that he does. And that requires more than a trading of proof texts.

Peace...
How is it a proof text? God, in the first person, clearly says to Moses, no small person in Scripture, that "I make them". Actually your text usage seems to be a bit stretched. Thanks, SH.

Exodus 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12 Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak.” 13 But he said, “Oh, my Lord, please send someone else.”
 
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dkbwarrior

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How is it a proof text? God, in the first person, clearly says to Moses, no small person in Scripture, that "I make them". Actually your text usage seems to be a bit stretched. Thanks, SH.

Exodus 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12 Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak.” 13 But he said, “Oh, my Lord, please send someone else.”

I'm fine with trading proof texts, if that's what you wanna do:

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
-Acts 10:38

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
-Mark 3:24-25

Peace...
 
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Seeking Him

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I'm fine with trading proof texts, if that's what you wanna do:

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
-Acts 10:38

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
-Mark 3:24-25

Peace...
But does the verse, in no uncertain terms, say that God does those things? SH.
 
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dkbwarrior

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But does the verse, in no uncertain terms, say that God does those things? SH.

It says that Jesus healed those that were oppressed of the devil. That includes the many blind and dumb people that He healed. Yet your Old testament verse says that God makes them blind and dumb. So either Jesus was healing those that God made blind and dumb, thus creating a kingdom divided against itself, or tone needs to dig a little bit deeper than one proof text, and create a theolgy that takes BOTH sets of scriptures into account.

I am not arguing the opposite of you. I am simply saying that your one sided interpretation based on one or even a handful of verses, ignores another handful of verses that seem to say just the opposite. I have given a detailed yet short and concise explanation for this, which either you haven't read, or ignored in favour of a proof text. You appear to be willing to stake all your theolgy on one verse, your interpretation of which I personally believe ignores scores of other verse in the Bible that seem to say the opposite.

One needs to look at all the scriptures that have a bearing on this, and form a theology that takes all of them into account. Not just pick one or two or a few from one side of the debate, and ignore the rest that don't seem to support your view.

Peace...
 
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Tobias

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It says that Jesus healed those that were oppressed of the devil. That includes the many blind and dumb people that He healed. Yet your Old testament verse says that God makes them blind and dumb. So either Jesus was healing those that God made blind and dumb, thus creating a kingdom divided against itself, or tone needs to dig a little bit deeper than one proof text, and create a theolgy that takes BOTH sets of scriptures into account.

I am not arguing the opposite of you. I am simply saying that your one sided interpretation based on one or even a handful of verses, ignores another handful of verses that seem to say just the opposite. I have given a detailed yet short and concise explanation for this, which either you haven't read, or ignored in favour of a proof text. You appear to be willing to stake all your theolgy on one verse, your interpretation of which I personally believe ignores scores of other verse in the Bible that seem to say the opposite.

One needs to look at all the scriptures that have a bearing on this, and form a theology that takes all of them into account. Not just pick one or two or a few from one side of the debate, and ignore the rest that don't seem to support your view.

Peace...


Perhaps that is why it says that Jesus healed "those who were oppressed by the Devil." If He had also healed those who were "being taught a lesson by God," then He would have been doing so in opposition to God. :idea:
 
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Seeking Him

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It says that Jesus healed those that were oppressed of the devil. That includes the many blind and dumb people that He healed. Yet your Old testament verse says that God makes them blind and dumb. So either Jesus was healing those that God made blind and dumb, thus creating a kingdom divided against itself, or tone needs to dig a little bit deeper than one proof text, and create a theolgy that takes BOTH sets of scriptures into account.

I am not arguing the opposite of you. I am simply saying that your one sided interpretation based on one or even a handful of verses, ignores another handful of verses that seem to say just the opposite. I have given a detailed yet short and concise explanation for this, which either you haven't read, or ignored in favour of a proof text. You appear to be willing to stake all your theolgy on one verse, your interpretation of which I personally believe ignores scores of other verse in the Bible that seem to say the opposite.

One needs to look at all the scriptures that have a bearing on this, and form a theology that takes all of them into account. Not just pick one or two or a few from one side of the debate, and ignore the rest that don't seem to support your view.

Peace...
Really? Why am I one sided, but you're not? I agree God heals, do you agree with what he said in Exodus 4:11, where he says he made people blind and deaf etc? Lets see who is one sided now?;) SH.
 
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dkbwarrior

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Perhaps that is why it says that Jesus healed "those who were oppressed by the Devil." If He had also healed those who were "being taught a lesson by God," then He would have been doing so in opposition to God. :idea:

But this you are creating out of thin air. The verse you quoted does not say that God makes some of mans mouths, some of the mute, some of the deaf, some of the seeing, and some of the blind, in order to teach them a lesson. From your quote:

Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

So now you are adding your own words to this and saying it means He only makes some of mans mouths, some of the mute, some of the deaf, some of the seeing, and some of the blind. Those ones that God made, Jesus couldn't heal, because God made them. But the mouths, the mute, the deaf, the seeing and the blind that satan made, Jesus could heal?

First of all, satan cannot create anything. Second of all, the obvious inference, because He included the making of mans mouth, and the seeing, is that this is an all inclusive statement, refering to all mens mouths, all the mute, all the deaf, all the seeing, and all the blind.

You are reading all kinds of things into this verse that it doesn't say. You are reading into it what you want it to say, and ignoring what it actually does say. Then combining that verse with your added baggage and creating a theology out of it. It doesn't work.

Peace...
 
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