Justifyable War?

[razzelflabben]

Violence is often associated with crime. We know our Lord did no crime using justifiable force

The pharisees accused Him of several crimes, should we talk about the specific passages for those?

nor was he not in the Will of God.

Just wanting to be clear here, are you saying that Jesus was always in the will of God? That is what I am reading, do I have it right?

 

[Giver]

The pharisees accused Him of several crimes, should we talk about the specific passages for those? Just wanting to be clear here, are you saying that Jesus was always in the will of God? That is what I am reading, do I have it right?

Jesus is God, one with the Father. (John 5:23) “So that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father.”

 

[Chie]

The pharisees accused Him of several crimes, should we talk about the specific passages for those? Just wanting to be clear here, are you saying that Jesus was always in the will of God? That is what I am reading, do I have it right?

Yes , Jesus was in the will of God in all things he did, and never committed a crime against man or God.

 

[Chie]

The pharisees accused Him of several crimes, should we talk about the specific passages for those? Just wanting to be clear here, are you saying that Jesus was always in the will of God? That is what I am reading, do I have it right?

just because Jesus was accused don't make it so, it was just what the pharisees thought , and they was wrong .

 

[Silenus]

okay, dvd, I was away for awhile but I'm back. Gotta lot of irons in the fire so I can't give as detailed a response as I'd like but I'll comment of two points . . .

I write this that you might understand my view and points…All Christians are to be Christ followers and mature into His fullness and the knowledge (proper relationship, intelligential knowledge, and deeds) of Jesus to advance His Kingdom in which He established and we currently live in. Too many people have made the Kingdom establishment about the new ordinance of God at Jesus’ second coming. However, Jesus came to restore the

Kingdom of God on Earth as it is in Heaven. Jesus has fulfilled Daniel’s prophecy that the Kingdom of God would be established and that reign would not be destroyed but go on forever. During the trail, Jesus claimed the enthronement in Daniel to the actions that were taking place in the death and resurrection. Jesus says that He has already gain authority over all of creation. In Acts, the exaltation of Jesus was not to get to 3rd heaven, but it was understood by all (even the pagan Romans) to be enthronement of Jesus as God to reign over all things. Paul said in Ephesians that God enthroned Jesus over all the created authorities and the church that He might fill all things. 1 John 2:8 that the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. But the flesh has come back as Absalom to steal Jesus’ reign, but we won’t allow it because we will have the heart of David in the fullness of Jesus that no wave of trickery from in their interest of deceitful scheming will move us, that we won’t be partakers of empty words.

I agree that there is too much emphasis on the not yet part on the Kingdom of God and not enough emphasis on the here now part. But there is a not yet. Although we look forward to Mt Zion, we are sojourners and exiles presently until the kingdom is established. It has not been established yet. The earth still groans as it waits for the sons of God to be revealed and we still groan under our sinful flesh. There is the not yet part to be considered. And so, we still live under our respective Babylon’s. In either way, the question still remains, if God gives government authority to enact vengeance, which he clearly does, is it okay for a Christian to do it. With this I want to move onto another quote of yours . . .

My hearts desire is for all Christians to actual become mature of faith, become disciples in every aspect of life to what Jesus molded, and produce other Christians. That when we become Christians created in Jesus’ obedience to God and truth found in Him, we become displayers of mercy and grace in all things. Scripture says that God has a quarry of stones. Each stone is being worked with a tool to shape that stone for His house. Moses, Ruth, Isaiah, Elijah, Peter, Mary Mag., Paul, and everyone faithful to God is a stone. We are being shaped and identified for the correct placement in His House. Because we are rocks that have to shaped, there are pieces of each one of us that have to removed and not be pursued to look like Jesus. And it will hurt…but how will you advance the Kingdom? God will handle wrath. Will you handle being just like Jesus in every possible since? I put to you that a Christian who is not already in the military should not get into it because they have chosen to be like Jesus. Those who are in the military who become a Christian will have to make a chosen at some point of whether to mature or to become stagnate. Know more fully that the battle of the military and our battle is not a separate fights, but the same fight in which we choose to use the sword of the Kingdom through mercy and the call of Jesus rather than a sword of wrath to kill others.

But, this whole statement seems to assume that the government asserts its authority without a biblical mandate. But they have one. God gives it to them. So, if God gives government a mandate to enact justice, how can it be wrong for a Christian to be part of any arm of that justice. If government is ordained, how can it be wrong for a Christian to take part in a God ordained establishment. Of course, when the government defies God, one defies the government, but government itself is biblically supported. And, if one can’t be a soldier, one can’t be a politician who orders soldiers to war, and one can't be a judge who orders execution. one must leave the political arena. And again, why doesn't Paul and Peter condemn the political or tell them to leave. Paul or peter would never advocate stagnation, which is what you seem to indicate happens to one who stays in the military.

I do, however, strongly agree with your emphasis on the here now aspect of the kingdom. It is something often missed.

 

[Smileyill]

It seems to me that a Christian soldier would have to constantly question, at least internally, the decisions and orders given by his superiors. This doesn't work well, especially for military work. A politician does question. A Judge, a prosecutor, a lawyer and a police officer all have discretion.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

Just the wars that serve Christian interests, then? V.v n1.

I agree that all wisdom comes from God. But what kind of wisdom are we talking about? What is meant by 'wise' in the parable itself?

If there was no such thing as a "justifiable war", Jesus would not have talked about how the wise king plans for battle. He would have called him a foolish king. Since wisdom comes from God, using the faculty of wisdom to plan for war indicates that God doesn't condemn all war.

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

And what's wrong with retaliation? Doesn't the death penalty still exist in America; one of the most Christian nations on earth?

 

[Giver]

Just the wars that serve Christian interests, then? V.v n1.

I agree that all wisdom comes from God. But what kind of wisdom are we talking about? What is meant by 'wise' in the parable itself?

(Matthew 13:13)”The reason I talk to them in parables is that they look without seeing and listen without hearing or understanding,”

 

[ScottBot]

(Matthew 13:13)”The reason I talk to them in parables is that they look without seeing and listen without hearing or understanding,”

[bible]job 3:2[/bible]

 

[Giver]

(John 17:14-18) “I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them, because they belong to the world no more than I belong to the world. I am not asking you to remove them from the world, but to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.”

(John 17:20) “I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me.”

(1 Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teaching that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”

You should realize that the Government is for the lawless. Christians don’t need law.

Jesus told us (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” Now why would Jesus tell us what he did about killing and then turn right around and contradict himself and say go into the army and my rule won’t apply?

The same person who told us to obey our Government also told us: (Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is mine – I will pay them back, the Lord promises.”

 

[razzelflabben]

Quote:
Originally Posted by razzelflabben
The pharisees accused Him of several crimes, should we talk about the specific passages for those? Just wanting to be clear here, are you saying that Jesus was always in the will of God? That is what I am reading, do I have it right?

Jesus is God, one with the Father. (John 5:23) “So that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father.”[/quote] Giver, you really have me stumped, what does this passage have to do with me asking chai to clarify his/her post? How does this scripture show us what he/she meant?

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes , Jesus was in the will of God in all things he did, and never committed a crime against man or God.

Agreed, and I also might add, that just because He was accused of crimes, doesn't mean He was guilty of any sin. The difference here is that there are two laws, man's and God's. Man can pass a law for say you are not allowed to meet together to study the bible. Now if you meet together to study the bible, you are commiting a crime, but not a sin. Just thought it important to note the difference when talking about what a crime is.

 

[razzelflabben]

It seems to me that a Christian soldier would have to constantly question, at least internally, the decisions and orders given by his superiors. This doesn't work well, especially for military work. A politician does question. A Judge, a prosecutor, a lawyer and a police officer all have discretion.

don't we make a decision every minute of the day? How would being in the military be any different?

 

[razzelflabben]

Just the wars that serve Christian interests, then? V.v n1.

I agree that all wisdom comes from God. But what kind of wisdom are we talking about? What is meant by 'wise' in the parable itself?

Okay, go back to one of my earlier posts and back to the OT. What wars did, throughout the bible, did God promote? order? Each of those wars were about protecting the innocent that are being oppressed. So what then would be a Just War? One that serves the christian interests or one that ended or attempted to end oppressions of the innocent? My bet is on the second, end oppressions of the innocent.

 

[razzelflabben]

And what's wrong with retaliation? Doesn't the death penalty still exist in America; one of the most Christian nations on earth?

Retaliation is clearly against God's commands,
Leviticus 19:18; Proverbs 24:29; Romans 12:17,19; 1 Thessalonians 5:15

As to the death penalty, there are many who believe it is wrong and some who justify it through the scripture that says, and eye for and eye..... but alas that is another discussion.

 

[razzelflabben]

The same person who told us to obey our Government also told us: (Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is mine – I will pay them back, the Lord promises.”

Is this your problem, you think every war is about vengence?

Consider this commentary on the Matt passage
http://www.biblegateway.com/resourc...etCommentaryText&cid=1&source=1&seq=i.47.5.12

 

[Piedpiper123]

It seems to me that a Christian soldier would have to constantly question, at least internally, the decisions and orders given by his superiors. This doesn't work well, especially for military work.

It works very well and I speak as an ex-soldier.

The trials at Nuremberg after WWII made it very clear that a soldier that commits crimes when ordered to is as culpable as the officer that gave the command. If you are told to commit genocide, rape or commit other war crimes as a soldier you MUST refuse!

 

[Chie]

Agreed, and I also might add, that just because He was accused of crimes, doesn't mean He was guilty of any sin. The difference here is that there are two laws, man's and God's. Man can pass a law for say you are not allowed to meet together to study the bible. Now if you meet together to study the bible, you are commiting a crime, but not a sin. Just thought it important to note the difference when talking about what a crime is.

agree

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

What does this response even mean? Care to elaborate please?

(Matthew 13:13)”The reason I talk to them in parables is that they look without seeing and listen without hearing or understanding,”