Justifyable War?

[SonOfSophroniscus]

If you are justifying war on the grounds that Jesus related a parable of the 'wise general', wise equating to apt in a particular field, then it follows that if there were a 'parable of the wise rapist', by this, rape would also be justified.

 

[ScottBot]

If you are justifying war on the grounds that Jesus related a parable of the 'wise general', wise equating to apt in a particular field, then it follows that if there were a 'parable of the wise rapist', by this, rape would also be justified.

But there are no parables of the wise rapist, or wise murderer, or wise thief, or wise blasphemer, or wise adulterer, are there?

 

[Smileyill]

It works very well and I speak as an ex-soldier.

The trials at Nuremberg after WWII made it very clear that a soldier that commits crimes when ordered to is as culpable as the officer that gave the command. If you are told to commit genocide, rape or commit other war crimes as a soldier you MUST refuse!

Good for you. But how would you respond if you fought for Germany w/o genocide orders, but instead just as a fighter pilot?

 

[Giver]

But there are no parables of the wise rapist, or wise murderer, or wise thief, or wise blasphemer, or wise adulterer, are there?

Using a parable with it’s very questionable meaning to try and disregard All the scripture that tell us: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” Is really reaching for straws. Besides remember what Jesus used parables for: (Matthew 13:10-14) Then the disciples went to him and asked, ‘Why do you talk to them in parables? ‘Because’ he replied ‘the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are revealed to you, but they are not revealed to them. For anyone who has will be given more, and he will have more than enough; but from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away. The reason I talk to them in parables is that they look without seeing and listen without hearing or understanding. So in their case this prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled:”​

 

[Giver]

The pharisees accused Him of several crimes, should we talk about the specific passages for those? Just wanting to be clear here, are you saying that Jesus was always in the will of God? That is what I am reading, do I have it right?

King James (Peter 2:21-22) “For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.”

The Jerusalem Bible (Peter 2:21-22) “This, in fact, is what you were called to do, because Christ suffered for you and left an example for you to follow the way he took. He had not done anything wrong, and there had been no perjury in his mouth.”

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

Notice the conditional nature of my statement? 'If'.

But there are no parables of the wise rapist, or wise murderer, or wise thief, or wise blasphemer, or wise adulterer, are there?

 

[seekthetruth909]

King James (Peter 2:21-22) “For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.”

The Jerusalem Bible (Peter 2:21-22) “This, in fact, is what you were called to do, because Christ suffered for you and left an example for you to follow the way he took. He had not done anything wrong, and there had been no perjury in his mouth.”

Another scripture to think about.

Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. . .’ ” —John 18:36

 

[Giver]

Another scripture to think about.

You really don’t understand do you? Jesus is God, and as God he has the right to do what he wants to do with his creation. (Romans 9:19-21) “You will ask me, ‘In that case, how can God ever blame anyone, since no one can oppose his will?’ But what right have you, a human being, to cross-examine God? The pot has no right to say to the potter: Why did you make me this shape? Surely a potter can do what he likes with the clay? It is surely for him to decide whether he will use a particular lump of clay to make a special pot or an ordinary one?

We are God’s slaves, and are to do as he tells us. He took away our right to kill.

 

[Piedpiper123]

Good for you. But how would you respond if you fought for Germany w/o genocide orders, but instead just as a fighter pilot?

I'd do the job.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Just War according to the Roman Catholic Church:

"* One must have a just cause, such as the protection of basic human rights or the defense of the innocent from unjust aggression.

* One must have a "right intention" in seeking to restore order and justice. Even those with a just grievance cannot go to war out of hatred or a thirst for vengence.

*The use of force must be ordered by a competent lawful authority with responsibility for the common good.

*there must be reasonable probability of success, and the expected benefits must be proportionate to the human and other costs of war.

*All peaceful means of resolving the conflict must be exhausted. War must be a llast resort."

From: The Catholic Position on the Morality of War. Our Sunday Visitor, 2003.

 

[razzelflabben]

Using a parable with it’s very questionable meaning to try and disregard All the scripture that tell us: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” Is really reaching for straws. Besides remember what Jesus used parables for: (Matthew 13:10-14) Then the disciples went to him and asked, ‘Why do you talk to them in parables? ‘Because’ he replied ‘the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are revealed to you, but they are not revealed to them. For anyone who has will be given more, and he will have more than enough; but from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away. The reason I talk to them in parables is that they look without seeing and listen without hearing or understanding. So in their case this prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled:”​

Now I have not studied Hebrew and Greek but my husband has, he should have a bit of time to look at the Matt. 5:39 passage in the original text this Sun. In the meantime, an initial study of the original text brings us to the conclusion that Jesus is here talking about vengence, which is indeed consistant with the totality of scripture and offers no contridictions in our understanding and applications of scripture. Here is a reference to begin the study for yourself. Please note that this is only the very beginnings of the study and we can look deeper on our own and hopefully here as well.
http://bible.cc/matthew/5-39.htm

 

[razzelflabben]

King James (Peter 2:21-22) “For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.”

The Jerusalem Bible (Peter 2:21-22) “This, in fact, is what you were called to do, because Christ suffered for you and left an example for you to follow the way he took. He had not done anything wrong, and there had been no perjury in his mouth.”

and your point is.....?

 

[razzelflabben]

You really don’t understand do you? Jesus is God, and as God he has the right to do what he wants to do with his creation. (Romans 9:19-21) “You will ask me, ‘In that case, how can God ever blame anyone, since no one can oppose his will?’ But what right have you, a human being, to cross-examine God? The pot has no right to say to the potter: Why did you make me this shape? Surely a potter can do what he likes with the clay? It is surely for him to decide whether he will use a particular lump of clay to make a special pot or an ordinary one?

We are God’s slaves, and are to do as he tells us. He took away our right to kill.

These verses, when looking at the entire passage are talking about questioning what God does, not suggesting as you seem to be that Jesus as God did things that we should not. In fact, the bible tells us, and you have been shown the scriptures so don't accuse otherwise, that Jesus is indeed our example and we should strive to be like Him. It is important to know the scriptures, but equally important to understand them. Review the walk to Amais (sp?) and how they knew the word but didn't understand it, we also see this in the foot washing in John, and several other places as well. Just because a person can spout scriptures, doesn't mean they have any understanding thereof.

 

[Smileyill]

I'd do the job.

Why? I don't understand that.

 

[razzelflabben]

But there are no parables of the wise rapist, or wise murderer, or wise thief, or wise blasphemer, or wise adulterer, are there?

Ive been trying and trying and trying to think of or find one time in which God/Jesus upheld an evil to show how to be Godly, I can't do it. So if we are going to take this arguement seriously, please provide one instance where something that is considered sinful is upheld as a Godly example. Otherwise, I think the arguement can be dismissed without purpose or substance.

edit: I'm not speaking to you personally amor, just anyone who wants to pursue the arguement, your post was convienient, from the sounds of it, you agree that this is a fruitless arguement.

 

[ScottBot]

Ive been trying and trying and trying to think of or find one time in which God/Jesus upheld an evil to show how to be Godly, I can't do it. So if we are going to take this arguement seriously, please provide one instance where something that is considered sinful is upheld as a Godly example. Otherwise, I think the arguement can be dismissed without purpose or substance.

edit: I'm not speaking to you personally amor, just anyone who wants to pursue the arguement, your post was convienient, from the sounds of it, you agree that this is a fruitless arguement.

I do, and no harm no foul. I got the intent of what you were trying to say.

 

[Smileyill]

What about Jephthah? Judges 11 and Heb 11? I've heard that Ju 11:31 could read "...will be the Lord's, or I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." But no Bible I've seen reads that way. Scripture doesnt' comdemn it like it does David with Bathsheba.

 

[razzelflabben]

What about Jephthah? Judges 11 and Heb 11? I've heard that Ju 11:31 could read "...will be the Lord's, or I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." But no Bible I've seen reads that way. Scripture doesnt' comdemn it like it does David with Bathsheba.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question or your point. What about Jephthah? What about him, what are you asking exactly?

 

[razzelflabben]

My husband took a couple of minutes to look at the Matt. scripture and his research lead him to the same conclusion as the commentary reference that I posted, the Matt. scripture according to the research is talking about retaliation or retrabution, not military, war, or defending one's self.

 

[Smileyill]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question or your point. What about Jephthah? What about him, what are you asking exactly?

It's an example a highly respected man committing human sacrifice and this thread's about brutality.