Justifyable War?

[Giver]

Two things have been concerning me about this discussion.
1. This idea that in order to follow God I have to have a problem with His commands. In fact, my father has been known to say that if it is easy, it is not God's will. That is nonsense, it is much harder to be out of God's will than in it, no matter what that will is.

2. From the other side of the issue. I don't recall anyone defining what is a justifyable war. It seems that most here, feel that any war that the US gets into is okay, and maybe it is, but the OP was dealing with just wars and not whether or not it is okay for a believer to go to war.

Now personally, I think that the issue of the military for the believer has to be a matter of God's conviction of the individual being that the scriptures do not say not to be in the military, and in fact, I know of some very "heroic" americans who entered the military as conscientious objectors and never even carried a weapon. If they were outside God's will, why would He bless them in such a mighty way through their service? So what then of just wars. If the war is one that would remove evil from our midst so that the people would not be led astray, it is throughout the bible, from OT to NT a just war. God's heart is that the people would not be led astray, because He cares for His children. He knows that even a little evil can poison the whole, when will we learn this as well?

You have your personal opinion and that is ok, but if someone is to have a reason to believe you are maybe right, don’t you think using God’s Word would help?

Jesus told us: (Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

(John 5:24) “I tell you most solemnly, whoever listens to my words, and believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought to judgment he has passed from death to life.”

(Luke 8:21) “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and put it into practice.”

(Luke 11:26) “But he replied, ‘Still happier those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

 

[razzelflabben]

You have your personal opinion and that is ok, but if someone is to have a reason to believe you are maybe right, don’t you think using God’s Word would help?

Jesus told us: (Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

(John 5:24) “I tell you most solemnly, whoever listens to my words, and believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought to judgment he has passed from death to life.”

(Luke 8:21) “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and put it into practice.”

(Luke 11:26) “But he replied, ‘Still happier those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Throughout this thread scriptures and scriptural examples have been given and ignored, I wonder why you would ask for them if you only want to ignore them?

I am not in the habit of beating people up, much less with scripture, that would fall under the unjustifiable war as far as I can tell, sowing seeds is enough on such issues as these. But that is indeed my opinion, which of my opinions would you like backed by scripture now?

 

[Giver]

Throughout this thread scriptures and scriptural examples have been given and ignored, I wonder why you would ask for them if you only want to ignore them?

I am not in the habit of beating people up, much less with scripture, that would fall under the unjustifiable war as far as I can tell, sowing seeds is enough on such issues as these. But that is indeed my opinion, which of my opinions would you like backed by scripture now?

I am sorry but it must be my old age, but I sure don’t remember you refuting me using the Word of God. Also sense when is using scripture beating up on someone? Jesus told us the Word would be our judge on the last day, so don’t you think everything we do or say should be judge by the Word today?

 

[ScottBot]

I am sorry but it must be my old age, but I sure don’t remember you refuting me using the Word of God. Also sense when is using scripture beating up on someone? Jesus told us the Word would be our judge on the last day, so don’t you think everything we do or say should be judge by the Word today?

Jesus is the Word. Jesus will be our judge, not a book.

 

[dvd_holc]

Jesus is the Word. Jesus will be our judge, not a book.

That Book is where the Word has chosen to dwell. If you want to know Jesus, you will 1) learn scriptures in their historical world 2) and become like Jesus.

You should learn the Bible, pray the Bible, live the Bible, teach the Bible, and die the Bible...and you will be just like Jesus because did the same.

 

[Giver]

Jesus is the Word. Jesus will be our judge, not a book.

The Bible is the written Word of God, and Jesus said: (John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

 

[ScottBot]

That Book is where the Word has chosen to dwell. If you want to know Jesus, you will 1) learn scriptures in their historical world 2) and become like Jesus.

You should learn the Bible, pray the Bible, live the Bible, teach the Bible, and die the Bible...and you will be just like Jesus because did the same.

So, Jesus lives in a book? And here I was thinking He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am sorry but it must be my old age, but I sure don’t remember you refuting me using the Word of God. Also sense when is using scripture beating up on someone? Jesus told us the Word would be our judge on the last day, so don’t you think everything we do or say should be judge by the Word today?

I personally pointed to the centurion, the OT commands to kill even women and children, I also personally pointed to Jesus "violence" with the money changers and His attacks on the pharisees. Others here have used other passages with you as well. So must I look up each of these for you, or can you ask for the ones you don't remember?

Now, when someone wants to know what the bible says, it is beating them up if all you do is say the same scripture over and over again, because doing so removes all explaination, context, and understanding. In order to understand scripture, we need to see it in context, historical context, translation, and consistancy with the rest of the bible. You have not shown any of this, but accuse me of not providing scriptures because I don't quote them over and over again. How about this one, study to show thyself approved a workman that needeth not be ashamed of the gospel.... or trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding in all they ways acknoledge Him and He will direct your paths..... or how about Put on the whole armor of God...... maybe we should talk about we are more than conquerers through Him that loved us......I could go on and on, but what would that prove, who knows the most scriptures? No, it proves nothing because though all those passages talk about warfare, none of them deal with the understandings provided therein. Thus to go on and on would indeed be beating you up with scripture instead of following Christ's example of opening the word to the people.

 

[razzelflabben]

1 Timothy 1:18
1 Corinthians 15:26
Matthew 10:35
1 Corinthians 16:13
2 Timothy 2:3
Now all these could be used to support fighting and war, but that is to not deal with context and consistancy, how about however,
2 Timothy 2:4

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4No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer.

Now I for one, believe that both the OT and NT work together to provide us with understanding, but you dont seem to, so we can deal with this passage first and them go on after you dismiss it.

 

[Giver]

1 Timothy 1:18
1 Corinthians 15:26
Matthew 10:35
1 Corinthians 16:13
2 Timothy 2:3
Now all these could be used to support fighting and war, but that is to not deal with context and consistancy, how about however,
2 Timothy 2:4

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4No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer.

Now I for one, believe that both the OT and NT work together to provide us with understanding, but you dont seem to, so we can deal with this passage first and them go on after you dismiss it.

Now you talk about using the Bible out of context, and then go on to use (1 Timothy 1:18) like it proves that Paul is telling Timothy to fight like a soldier. My! Are you not deceptive? You forgot to tell everyone that Paul told Timothy that his weapons were faith and a good conscience. Now he was sure to kill someone with those weapons.

(1 Corinthians 15:26) is all about what God is going to do and in now way does it say we are going to kill anyone. The rest of your scriptures, which you so conveniently didn’t quote, tell us to do everything in love and to live in peace.

You don’t have any scriptural proof for the right of a Christian to ever harm anyone.

Now Jesus is God and he has every right to do what he will with anyone. It is late, but I can quote you scripture that tells us that also.

Just because Jesus drives people out of the temple doesn’t give us the right to disobey him.

We do as we are told. He is God not us.

All your talk about that you need to know, and us all of scripture, is just a smoke screen to make people believe that the Word of God is just too deep to understand by just anyone. What a lot of garbage that is, the Holy Spirit makes the Word of God a book that any first grader can read and understand. Most people don’t want to understand, because it scares them.

I use the same scripture over and over because it is what Jesus said, and until you come up some explanation to nullify his Word it is what we need to obey.

 

[ScottBot]

Now you talk about using the Bible out of context, and then go on to use (1 Timothy 1:18) like it proves that Paul is telling Timothy to fight like a soldier. My! Are you not deceptive? You forgot to tell everyone that Paul told Timothy that his weapons were faith and a good conscience. Now he was sure to kill someone with those weapons.

(1 Corinthians 15:26) is all about what God is going to do and in now way does it say we are going to kill anyone. The rest of your scriptures, which you so conveniently didn’t quote, tell us to do everything in love and to live in peace.

You don’t have any scriptural proof for the right of a Christian to ever harm anyone.

Now Jesus is God and he has every right to do what he will with anyone. It is late, but I can quote you scripture that tells us that also.

Just because Jesus drives people out of the temple doesn’t give us the right to disobey him.

We do as we are told. He is God not us.

All your talk about that you need to know, and us all of scripture, is just a smoke screen to make people believe that the Word of God is just too deep to understand by just anyone. What a lot of garbage that is, the Holy Spirit makes the Word of God a book that any first grader can read and understand. Most people don’t want to understand, because it scares them.

I use the same scripture over and over because it is what Jesus said, and until you come up some explanation to nullify his Word it is what we need to obey.

Yes well, Jesus also said, "Not everyone who calls Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of the Father."

 

[Giver]

Yes well, Jesus also said, "Not everyone who calls Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of the Father."

Amen! (Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

The will of the Father is to hear his Word and live it.

 

[dvd_holc]

So, Jesus lives in a book? And here I was thinking He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

What else does our scripture say?

 

[razzelflabben]

Now you talk about using the Bible out of context, and then go on to use (1 Timothy 1:18) like it proves that Paul is telling Timothy to fight like a soldier. My! Are you not deceptive? You forgot to tell everyone that Paul told Timothy that his weapons were faith and a good conscience. Now he was sure to kill someone with those weapons.

Now you tell me my point? Do I not know my own point better than you? Please, before I go on to clarify my point, note that you admit that I was talking about using the bible out of context, it will be important in my next comment. The point of Tim. is that Jesus uses and it is not the only place, the military metaphor and understanding to instruct us in the truths of our spiritual life and relationship to Him. This would then seem quite odd to us such if it was a sin to be in the military for the people of God would have no reference point for understanding what Jesus was talking about. Take foot washing for example, the people understood the relationship of a whole washing vs. a spit bath as it were, do you? How does our understanding change as we understand the imagry that Jesus chooses? Understanding it, opens the word to us and we then can apply it. So before you go around making harsh accusations, understand that theoretically, it is the soldiers among us that should hold the greatest understanding of spiritual warfare and faith in God, not the other way around. So I must ask you what it would gain God to use a metaphor that no one could understand? Why would He choose something sinful to explain something sinless?

(1 Corinthians 15:26) is all about what God is going to do and in now way does it say we are going to kill anyone. The rest of your scriptures, which you so conveniently didn’t quote, tell us to do everything in love and to live in peace.

Remember the note above, where I said that passage could be taken out of context to justify anything we wanted to say, then gave you examples. Wow, so inlightened you are to accuse me of what I told you I was doing.

You don’t have any scriptural proof for the right of a Christian to ever harm anyone.

Well, this thread would say otherwise, but how about starting with Jesus and the money changers. Oops no scripture was given and apparently you don't recall the passage without it, there are several, but here is the most explicit
John 2:15

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15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.



Do you feel better now?

Now Jesus is God and he has every right to do what he will with anyone. It is late, but I can quote you scripture that tells us that also.

And the bible says he was also without spot or blemish or in other words sinless. Shall I give you scriptures for that as well. I just assumed someone as knowledgable of scripture as yourself would already know them but here they are.
1 Peter 1:19

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19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:



Hebrews 4:15

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15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

And this is just two of many. Do you feel better now, we have established that Jesus came to fulfil the law or in other words, not sin. Yet He was violent even though He commanded us to not be violent. So did He sin, lie, or is there more to the picture that we have yet to uncover?[/quote]



Just because Jesus drives people out of the temple doesn’t give us the right to disobey him.[/quote]Who said anything about disobeying Him? If He did not see violence in this instance a sin, why should we? Are we so much wiser than He to assume Him to be sinful? I will not boast of such things, what you do is your cross to bear. I personally will stand firm that Jesus did not sin and thus His violence taught us or should open our eyes to what the intent of the comand really is. You maintain whatever you like, just don't accuse me of not basing my beliefs on scripture when they clearly are based on scripture and so much so that I believe every word therein, not just the ones I can rationalize and justify.

We do as we are told. He is God not us.

And yet He did exactly as He was commanded. Isn't that interesting, you are telling us to not be like Jesus when the bible tells us to be exactly like Him.

All your talk about that you need to know, and us all of scripture, is just a smoke screen to make people believe that the Word of God is just too deep to understand by just anyone. What a lot of garbage that is, the Holy Spirit makes the Word of God a book that any first grader can read and understand. Most people don’t want to understand, because it scares them.

Now what I am about to say to you I say in sincere love for you dear brother (I hope you are a brother, I have been in trouble for that one before, if you are a sister please forgive my assumption) People like you drive many people away from the healing Love of the God of the bible. Here is the reason. When there appears to be a contridiction in the bible, as this appears to be, we have three options, 1. pick which one we want to follow and justify all others (your choice) 2. ignore the entire bible and assume that it is all a lie (favorite of atheists) or 3. compare it to the entirety of the bible, (there is a process for doing this, but that is another discussion) When people run accross those who pick and choose, they tend though not always to discard the entire thing reasoning that if you can't even believe it in it's entirety, why should they believe it at all. When these same people who are struggling to understand see someone who studies it, (like the bible tells us to do...
2 Timothy 2:15

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15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.) they see consistancy and that makes sense to them. Now again, this isn't always the case but most often is.

I use the same scripture over and over because it is what Jesus said, and until you come up some explanation to nullify his Word it is what we need to obey.

Until you can explain how a perfect God can use violence and military examples all the while maintaining that non violence and non military involvement is the righteous thing to do, you have no case. If you find a way to explain it, we can move on into other passages.

 

[razzelflabben]

Amen! (Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

The will of the Father is to hear his Word and live it.

The will of the Father is that we be blameless
Romans 4:13


Listen to this passage


13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.



Romans 15:8


Listen to this passage

8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews[a]on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

Matthew 3:12

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12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matt. 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:24

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24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Matthew 12:7

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7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless

And I am tired of cutting and pasting scriptures that you surely you already know.

 

[Giver]

The will of the Father is that we be blameless
Romans 4:13


Listen to this passage


13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.



Romans 15:8


Listen to this passage

8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews[a]on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

Matthew 3:12

King James Version (KJV) Public Domain



12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matt. 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:24

King James Version (KJV) Public Domain



24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Matthew 12:7

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7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless

And I am tired of cutting and pasting scriptures that you surely you already know.

Why don’t you stop doing so and try explaining What if anything the scriptures you have pasted have to do with the subject we have been discussing on this thread.

 

[razzelflabben]

Why don’t you stop doing so and try explaining What if anything the scriptures you have pasted have to do with the subject we have been discussing on this thread.

The question was asked about the will of the Father, so I posted scriptures about that while I wait for you to explain how a perfect Christ, the same Christ who used violence, intended us to read the scriptures and interpret them to say absolutely no violence under any circumstances. As best I can tell, either 1. Christ was not blameless, 2. Christ is a lier, or 3. the intent of the message is not no violence ever, but rather more in line with violence only when appropriate according to the scriptures. I know you don't like to hear that, but until or unless you can show us an alternative, I think we are at an impasse.

Edit: BTW, instead of the scriptures making you feel better, they seem to be agitating you, why? Didn't you want the discussion to be more scripturally based?

1 above
1 Peter 1:19

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19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2 above
Titus 1:2

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2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

3 above
James 1:25

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25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

Don't you just Love the Word of God!!!!

 

[Giver]

Why don’t you stop doing so and try explaining What if anything the scriptures you have pasted have to do with the subject we have been discussing on this thread.

Well I guess you tried to explain some of the scripture you pasted.

Let me explain this Jesus is God so just because he did something doesn’t give us the right to do so. He told us not to hurt anyone, so if we do than we are disobeying him. He is our boss we do as he tells us not as he does. You see he has the right to do anything he pleases with us.

(Romans 9:19-21) “You will ask me, ‘In that case, how can God ever blame anyone, since no one can oppose his will?’ but what right have you, a human being, to cross-examine God? The pot has no right to say to the potter: Why did you make me this shape? Surely a potter can do what he likes with the clay? It is surely for him to decide whether he will use a particular lump of clay to make a special pot or an ordinary one?

 

[razzelflabben]

Well I guess you tried to explain some of the scripture you pasted.

Let me explain this Jesus is God so just because he did something doesn’t give us the right to do so. He told us not to hurt anyone, so if we do than we are disobeying him. He is our boss we do as he tells us not as he does. You see he has the right to do anything he pleases with us.

(Romans 9:19-21) “You will ask me, ‘In that case, how can God ever blame anyone, since no one can oppose his will?’ but what right have you, a human being, to cross-examine God? The pot has no right to say to the potter: Why did you make me this shape? Surely a potter can do what he likes with the clay? It is surely for him to decide whether he will use a particular lump of clay to make a special pot or an ordinary one?

I really hate dueling scriptures because we never get to the heart of the matter, just like in the passage you present where we aren't talking about obedience, but rather what God does, much as Job learned. But dueling scripture it is....
John 13:15

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15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you


1 Corinthians 11

1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.


1 Peter 2:21

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21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Are we having fun yet?

Scripture is clear that we are to follow Jesus example and like it or not, Jesus used violence.

 

[Chie]

Violence is often associated with crime. We know our Lord did no crime using justifiable force nor was he not in the Will of God.