Justifyable War?

[Smileyill]

So as Christians, do we have a duty to prevent wars which we know will not be run under the "just war" doctrine?

 

[ScottBot]

Premise: Justified wars produce more benefits than suffering.

The Iraqi war caused more suffering than benefits.

Conclusion: The Iraqi is not just.

Evidence: civilian deaths, and nearly a trillion dollars spent. (Think about it, we could feed all Africa for years with that amount)

It's really not possible for Christians to conduct a war alone. Although God does control all.

How many people did Saddam Hussein kidnap, torture, rape, expose to chemical weapons, etc...

To allow that sort of thing to go on unchallenged is to condone it.

 

[TruthMiner]

Apparently, if you follow what you believe to be Christ's teaching about total and utter pacifism, you are an advocate of classical anarchism.

No, you would be an advocate that this world is on its way to ruin and that the holy nation of God is the church and it is the will of that nation that is important.

Civil authority is derived inherently from our intrinsic right to defend ourselves. God ordains all authority, and authority is properly used to provide for the common good, part of which is to maintain civil order. Part of maintaining civil order is to capture and punish those who break the law.

Like Saddam Hussein did to his subjects right?

Here is the definition of classical anarchism: The belief that all existing governmental authority should be abolished and replaced by free cooperation among individuals.

While I agree that is the ultimate goal, you would be a fool to think it will happen in our lifetime. It will happen when Christ returns to place the world under the final judgement.....now, that could happen in 5 minutes, or 5,000 years. Noone but the Father knows. Until then, God gave us the capacity to form governments to provide for the law and order that will come voluntarily when all that is left in the world are those who follow Christ.

Again you confuse citizens of America with citizens of the Kingdom of God.

Jesus nor Peter nor Paul would be weilding guns or driving tanks. And they wouldn't ask us to either.

Let the world do what it does. We Christians, the holy nation of God, will do what we do.... Love one another and love our enemies.

 

[dvd_holc]

Justified?

I was at a bible study this week. We went over Romans 12:9-21. But a man wanted to justify himself and said what if someone broke into my house and wanted to kill my family. It was asked what would you do? The man said I will protect my family and implied directly to violently killing the guy. It was said it good in that case to do that.

But where is exactly in that passage? The man and others left the bible to go the right that seemed right to them.

Do you understand? When you turn the cheek, you end the spiral of violence. When you feed those who harm you, you call them into a deeper fellowship with you. When a theif takes your life, you do not add violence to the world, but you sacrifically love the theif. You who say the greatest commandment is love God and love others as yourself...do you put love God and harm others in your deeds? Does love your enemy mean you kill your enemy? Why do you place yourself as a judge to excute judgment? Do you want God to excute judgment against you for your sins for all sin is worth of death, but which do you depend on wrath or mercy? Do you wake with a drive to say I would love God to kill me or beat me? Or do you wake with a drive to say I would love God to show me mercy? All sin is worth of death, but as Christians we are dependant on grace. SO DISPLAY GRACE ALWAYS!

 

[ScottBot]

So as Christians, do we have a duty to prevent wars which we know will not be run under the "just war" doctrine?

Yes.

 

[TruthMiner]

Justified?

I was at a bible study this week. We went over Romans 12:9-21. But a man wanted to justify himself and said what if someone broke into my house and wanted to kill my family. It was asked what would you do? The man said I will protect my family and implied directly to violently killing the guy. It was said it good in that case to do that.

But where is exactly in that passage? The man and others left the bible to go the right that seemed right to them.

Do you understand? When you turn the cheek, you end the spiral of violence. When you feed those who harm you, you call them into a deeper fellowship with you. When a theif takes your life, you do not add violence to the world, but you sacrifically love the theif. You who say the greatest commandment is love God and love others as yourself...do you put love God and harm others in your deeds? Does love your enemy mean you kill your enemy? Why do you place yourself as a judge to excute judgment? Do you want God to excute judgment against you for your sins for all sin is worth of death, but which do you depend on wrath or mercy? Do you wake with a drive to say I would love God to kill me or beat me? Or do you wake with a drive to say I would love God to show me mercy? All sin is worth of death, but as Christians we are dependant on grace. SO DISPLAY GRACE ALWAYS!

There are always those who try to justify evil with the "Two evils dilemma." It is nothing but a devilish trick like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Please answer Yes or No." They present a situation where you must choose between the dilemma of two evils and then implicitly suggest that the one you must choose then is actually "GOOD."

Choosing a lesser evil does not qualify anything as good. It is simply LESS EVIL. If one must choose a lesser evil in a given situation it does not justify that evil. It is good to choose what is LESS EVIL if you MUST CHOOSE such a thing in a particular situation. However, this does not justify the evil act.

For example, if one must choose killing an intruder over letting that one torture your infant child then you must choose the lesser evil. But this does not justify the act of killing people does it? What you did is still evil. It is just a lesser evil.

But we Christians don't have to choose going to war and killing. It is not justifiable. A nation may decide it must choose war but we Christians do not need to choose it. We are not of this world but are citizens of the Kingdom. We have the will of our Lord to do... to love one another.

 

[razzelflabben]

That self-defense is a perfectly acceptable Christian act.

Okay, bridge this for me, you said that

1. All authority is delegated from Christ
2. As such, we are to submit to civil authority.
3. God will eventual put an end to civil authority, because He will be ruling in person

means that self-defense is a perfectly acceptable Christian act. How are the two connected?

 

[mooduck1]

So as Christians, do we have a duty to prevent wars which we know will not be run under the "just war" doctrine?

Yes.

 

[razzelflabben]

Premise: Justified wars produce more benefits than suffering.

The Iraqi war caused more suffering than benefits.

Conclusion: The Iraqi is not just.

Evidence: civilian deaths, and nearly a trillion dollars spent. (Think about it, we could feed all Africa for years with that amount)

It's really not possible for Christians to conduct a war alone. Although God does control all.

The historians I know all agree that the number of deaths in Iraq is disproportionate to other wars throughout history. Does that make it a justifyable war? Or are there other criteria to consider?

 

[razzelflabben]

Let the world do what it does. We Christians, the holy nation of God, will do what we do.... Love one another and love our enemies.

Sorry, don't see much of that in our churches today.

 

[Smileyill]

How many people did Saddam Hussein kidnap, torture, rape, expose to chemical weapons, etc...

To allow that sort of thing to go on unchallenged is to condone it.

So we condone all other evils in this world too? Darfur etc.? We had him under control.

Christians endorsed the war, including me - wrongly. I think I erred by thinking that non-Christians have the self-restraint to conduct just wars.

Although I do believe a big stick does deter violence.

 

[dvd_holc]

Sorry, don't see much of that in our churches today.

THEN IT IS TIME TO TAKE THE CHURCHES BACK TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!

 

[razzelflabben]

THEN IT IS TIME TO TAKE THE CHURCHES BACK TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!

Kicking, biting, and swearing, with the full armor of God, or complacent waiting for God to do it all for us?

 

[dvd_holc]

Kicking, biting, and swearing, with the full armor of God, or complacent waiting for God to do it all for us?

The church will be church their heart by those who have the passion and commitment to model and bear witness with boldness the Kingdom of God...and the world loves those who give up so easily...where is your fire? It is both scary and difficult to lead people...it is only by the gift and mercy of God that it will be done and it will be done in each of us who want to get out of the pursuit of comfort who do not even have eyes to see the choas of our lives. Get out of the boat! God and Jesus want you to have passion to be just like Jesus...Jesus said, "All authority in Heaven and on Earth is given to me. Go out and make disciples just like you because you have the fire to be just like me." And the world was changed by that group of disciples who had the passion like Jesus. Do you have the passion? Do you dwell on the words of God? Do you want to live the way God meant you to live? You don't live alone and you were meant to be a blessing. So get the fire and when you say I can't...Jesus says, "Do you love me?...Be like me"

 

[Letalis]

Mod Hat On

I've moved this to the Christian Philosophy and Ethics forum.

Mod Hat Off
​

 

[Giver]

A couple of questions for you, they may seem silly but we don't know what you believe so I think it best to qualify a couple of things.

1. Is the God of the NT the same God as of the OT?
2. Why did God command the children of Isreal to kill women and children?

Who are you man to question God? Jesus is God, one with the Father, and the Father sent Jesus here to tell us a different way to live. What Jesus told us in now the Law. All you people who are or were in the armed forces should understand: “you obey the last order first”.

 

[razzelflabben]

The church will be church their heart by those who have the passion and commitment to model and bear witness with boldness the Kingdom of God...and the world loves those who give up so easily...where is your fire? It is both scary and difficult to lead people...it is only by the gift and mercy of God that it will be done and it will be done in each of us who want to get out of the pursuit of comfort who do not even have eyes to see the choas of our lives. Get out of the boat! God and Jesus want you to have passion to be just like Jesus...Jesus said, "All authority in Heaven and on Earth is given to me. Go out and make disciples just like you because you have the fire to be just like me." And the world was changed by that group of disciples who had the passion like Jesus. Do you have the passion? Do you dwell on the words of God? Do you want to live the way God meant you to live? You don't live alone and you were meant to be a blessing. So get the fire and when you say I can't...Jesus says, "Do you love me?...Be like me"

Interesting your questions, did you intend for me to answer them personally?

Interesting because I just chatted with a dear friend, who spoke of not knowing anyone who was more passionate, stronger in faith and resolve, Christ like than me. I laughed, because I know how far I have to go, we can always and forever go deeper and higher, but when you are too passionate and full of grace for the church to accept, It's a hard row to hoe and a painfully honest friend is an absolute God send.

 

[razzelflabben]

Who are you man to question God? Jesus is God, one with the Father, and the Father sent Jesus here to tell us a different way to live. What Jesus told us in now the Law. All you people who are or were in the armed forces should understand: “you obey the last order first”.

You accuse me of questioning God when I asked you what you believe? Confusing, very confusing. How is asking you what you believe questioning God?

 

[ScottBot]

You accuse me of questioning God when I asked you what you believe? Confusing, very confusing. How is asking you what you believe questioning God?

Only if you claim to be speaking for God.

 

[Silenus]

Giver says

I will say again the world needs to use force. A Christian isn’t part of the world.

Again! The world needs an army, police force, and laws, but Christian are not part of the world, and do not need to be part of these things.

(John 17:14-18) “I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them, because they belong to the world no more than I belong to the world. I am not asking you to remove them from the world, but to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.”

(1 Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, forthose who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teaching that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”

Well, I’d say your use of John is more isogesis than exegesis. He says that we are not to be taken out of the world, and we shall not. We are to have dealings with the world but not be identified with the world but with Christ. This verse doesn’t answer the question of what not being identified with the world means. Does being in the military mean that I now belong to the world? Or being a civil servant or senator mean I have identified myself with the world and not with Christ? This is a vulnerable interpretation again, considering Christ or His apostles didn’t call any out of their governmental roles or military ones. They obviously didn’t seem to think that being in the military was identification with the world. It seems one can be in the world, but not of it, in the role of a civil authority or a military man just as one can be in the world but not of it in any other profession. The second verse, to be honest, I don’t even see how it relates to the discussion. What is the argument you are forwarding with verse two?

Who are you man to question God?

Well, I’m nothing to question God, but I have no problem questioning anyone on this forum and part of that questioning involves the interpretation of scriptures. Is there a right one? Yes. Is one person right and the other wrong? Yes. Is it guaranteed it is you? Let’s find out, is what I say. If I am wrong, I’ll find out because God will make it plain either now or at judgment. But, I say we keep the papal proclamations to a minimum. Sorry, if I am being overly brutal here, feel free to let me know. I’ll apologize. As for obeying the last order first, Jesus, in Matt 5, also said he came not to overthrow the law but to fulfill it. By Jesus’ own words, the Old testament has value for interpretation of the NT, just as NT helps us understand the OT.