Justifyable War?

[Giver]

No...I was reading your mind, because by you quilting John 17:14-18 to verse 20 you fail to validate text that isolated that, these disciples were called out, prayed for, and were not to resume their occupation in the world. They were to be eyewitnesses and follow Him in their matyrdom.

Peace
CRIB

Jesus calls all his disciples to be not of the world. A Christian is a disciple of Jesus no more no less then the first apostles. Jesus told us we were all brothers no one greater than another. (Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

 

[mooduck1]

The Catholic Church has done everything it can do to water down the Word and make it sound like it is agreeing with what Jesus taught, but that is all it has done. If you read carefully their watered down version of what Jesus commanded us to live you will see that it doesn’t call people to live God’s Word.
Jesus taught: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
There is something else everyone should look at and take very seriously; (Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”


You have in the beginning of your post explained what Paul taught.

Doesn't anyone remember that story about the family who died sitting on their roof waiting for God to save them while rejecting human help in vaious forms, then they go to heaven and say 'God, why didn't you save us?' And God says, "I sent you guy ina boat, a rescue dog, and a helicoptor!" This is the fallacy of simply waiting around for a sterotypical supernatural solution to our problems. I bring this up because only a direct act of God would save us if we did not actively defend ourselves from Miltant Islamists and every other group that has NO issue with killing to take thier share of the American Pie. personally, I intend to use the tools God has already given me if Predators show up on my doorstep (right after a very short prayer for God to make my aim swift and accurate!).

 

[Cribstyl]

Who is "WE"? We Christians or We citizens of a country in the world?

If you meant "WE citizens," you go ahead and do that. We Christians do not get involved in such things.

So christians cant be police or soldiers?

Kill them before they kill you. Do not love your enemies but kill.

That's not the strategy of Godly nations, their leader should make alliances for peace and try deenergize terror and war.

Well you might want to convince Americans they should kill before they are killed. But it won't convince true disciples of Christ. America is one thing; the church is another. This nation of God, the church, does not wage war and kill. It does not take up arms but does as our Lord did, be crucified for the love of others. He did not take up arms and kill.

That a wreckless policy that you can easily paint.

America is not Israel of the Old Testament.

If you are so concerned about your guarding your worldly comforts even to the point of killing other human beings, perhaps Christianity is not for you.

First of all buddyboy you have a right to air your opinion just like me. As a 18yr old kid that found Jesus on active duty in Europe I'm sure you dont know where christains can be found.
I knew fellow christain soldiers and I know law enforcement that are christians.

We're to pray for our leaders they are appointed of God to administer justice.

Sheeze,

CRIB

 

[TruthMiner]

So christians cant be police or soldiers?





That's not the strategy of Godly nations, their leader should make alliances for peace and try deenergize terror and war.


That a wreckless policy that you can easily paint.

First of all buddyboy you have a right to air your opinion just like me. As a 18yr old kid that found Jesus on active duty in Europe I'm sure you dont know where christains can be found.
I knew fellow christain soldiers and I know law enforcement that are christians.

We're to pray for our leaders they are appointed of God to administer justice.

Sheeze,

CRIB

Well if Jesus and Peter were here I bet they would be packing all the best of US weaponry and killing them right with ya.

Or would they?

 

[ArcticFox]

So after the urging of a friend, I've taken to looking deeper into my views of whether for a Christian there is such thing as justifiable war or whether we are to take Christ's command to 'turn the other cheek' to mean that we should basically be doormats for our enemies unless God himself avenges us.

Let me suggest that neither of your ultimate conclusions are accurate. Consider that there are different standards here.

Look at Romans 13. It gives quite a lot of authority to the government, trumped seemingly only by our obedience to the Word of God. Consider, then, that the government has such rights to act as it chooses. This does not morally justify its every move, nor does this make the government always to be doing the "right thing" by default; we can still hold governments responsible for their behaviors.

However, for Christians, we are not to act like a government; we don't wield the sword in personal justice. Instead, we practice those commands given to us as individual believers. The government is not bound by these commands to Christians; a government that "turns the cheek" to evil would be a complete failure of a government and would wield the sword in vain, in violation of Romans 13's basic principle of the government. I know of no such government that has existed to any significant degree (that of a whole country).

For example, do you think it would be appropriate for a judge to practice the "do not judge" and "turn the other cheek" policies? Would you want such a judge presiding over your assailant? Of course not; we expect the judge, as an instrument of the government, to exact justice. (Of course, this comparison assumes that the word "judge" is the whole of the justice system; in America, for example, it is a combination of the judge and the jury that determine the extent of guilt and justice).

It's also very important, especially for our American brothers and sisters (of which I am one) to understand that no nation should or can be "Christian." Jesus did not come to build an earthly kingdom, nor is there any hint of command that we build a nation on the principles Jesus taught. We are to build our lives as citizens of the Heavenly Kingdom into a holy dwelling place for the Lord; we are not to expend our efforts to build an earthly kingdom. Each and every kingdom of this earth will be destroyed, including any so-called "Christian nation," whatever that means. Romans 13 does not, nor does any other portion of Scripture, support the idea of building our countries into supposedly "Christian countries." We are called to be moved with compassion for all, and this includes urging everyone to treat others with love, even urging our government officials to treat others so (such as encourages judges and politicians to protect those who cannot protect themselves, such as unborn children).

 

[Cribstyl]

Jesus calls all his disciples to be not of the world. A Christian is a disciple of Jesus no more no less then the first apostles. Jesus told us we were all brothers no one greater than another. (Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

Friend you're stretching this text a little...

Your premise is that we're not of this world but your text is not making that point.

You're correct to say that we're all brother, but Jesus chose 12 to be eyewitness to preach about Him, from His baptism to His accention. Judas betrayed Him, and Matthias was qualified to replace him. I'm in agreement that noone of them was given a tittle above the others (take that up with Catholic Church)

My brother-in-law is a colonel in the Air Force. He is also an annointed preacher of the Gospel and I consider him a brother in Christ. I've known him from childhood to know his love and commitment to God.


To be not of this world is..... to not have our mind settled on the limmitation of this world rather than on God.

If we believe that Christ in on the throne, then He is our king. We will live in worship of Him.
But if we put ourselve in control, then we will need millions of dollars to be successful. We wont have time for God. Cops will cheat, tax collectors will cheat. People wont learn that God is present everywhere.


Where your heart is there your treasure will also be.

To be transformed by the renewing of your mind is to put all your confidence in the heavenly promises of God, but you have to live in this world too.

It's hard to worship in bondage to those who dont know God. Be prepared to die.

CRIB

 

[Cribstyl]

Let me suggest that neither of your ultimate conclusions are accurate. Consider that there are different standards here.

Look at Romans 13. It gives quite a lot of authority to the government, trumped seemingly only by our obedience to the Word of God. Consider, then, that the government has such rights to act as it chooses. This does not morally justify its every move, nor does this make the government always to be doing the "right thing" by default; we can still hold governments responsible for their behaviors.

However, for Christians, we are not to act like a government; we don't wield the sword in personal justice. Instead, we practice those commands given to us as individual believers. The government is not bound by these commands to Christians; a government that "turns the cheek" to evil would be a complete failure of a government and would wield the sword in vain, in violation of Romans 13's basic principle of the government. I know of no such government that has existed to any significant degree (that of a whole country).

For example, do you think it would be appropriate for a judge to practice the "do not judge" and "turn the other cheek" policies? Would you want such a judge presiding over your assailant? Of course not; we expect the judge, as an instrument of the government, to exact justice. (Of course, this comparison assumes that the word "judge" is the whole of the justice system; in America, for example, it is a combination of the judge and the jury that determine the extent of guilt and justice).

Hello? are you saying that judges cant be christains?
Are you saying that the government cant have christains?

 

[ArcticFox]

Hello? are you saying that judges cant be christains?
Are you saying that the government cant have christains?

No.

 

[Gwenyfur]

God uses people as he sees fit

 

[Giver]

It's not polite to argue God's plan for another person's life.

After all Jesus blessed even the centurion. Why would He do any less for the soldiers of today?

Even you, sitting there in your self righteous interpretations of the Bible must admit, that God called Joshua, Saul, David and many others to war. Yet others He called to peace and declaring His words. There were warriors, kings, prophets, mothers each with a different calling to fulfill His plans.

So to sit and brow beat people with your interpretation of what they should be doing is, yes, quite rude.

You have no idea of their heart, nor of the calling God gave them for their lives.

That my dear young man, is for God alone to determine for them.

You can quote the Old Law and what the people in the Old Testament did, but that doesn’t change the fact that Jesus came and completed the Law. What he told us to do is now what we have to live. If you don’t have the faith to live his Word, than ask his Holy Spirit to help you. You can read what he told us to do, so just say yes, and then ask him to please give you the grace to live his Word.

 

[Giver]

Doesn't anyone remember that story about the family who died sitting on their roof waiting for God to save them while rejecting human help in vaious forms, then they go to heaven and say 'God, why didn't you save us?' And God says, "I sent you guy ina boat, a rescue dog, and a helicoptor!" This is the fallacy of simply waiting around for a sterotypical supernatural solution to our problems. I bring this up because only a direct act of God would save us if we did not actively defend ourselves from Miltant Islamists and every other group that has NO issue with killing to take thier share of the American Pie. personally, I intend to use the tools God has already given me if Predators show up on my doorstep (right after a very short prayer for God to make my aim swift and accurate!).

I suppose you found that story in the Word of God?

 

[Giver]

Friend you're stretching this text a little...

Your premise is that we're not of this world but your text is not making that point.

You're correct to say that we're all brother, but Jesus chose 12 to be eyewitness to preach about Him, from His baptism to His accention. Judas betrayed Him, and Matthias was qualified to replace him. I'm in agreement that noone of them was given a tittle above the others (take that up with Catholic Church)

My brother-in-law is a colonel in the Air Force. He is also an annointed preacher of the Gospel and I consider him a brother in Christ. I've known him from childhood to know his love and commitment to God.


To be not of this world is..... to not have our mind settled on the limmitation of this world rather than on God.

If we believe that Christ in on the throne, then He is our king. We will live in worship of Him.
But if we put ourselve in control, then we will need millions of dollars to be successful. We wont have time for God. Cops will cheat, tax collectors will cheat. People wont learn that God is present everywhere.


Where your heart is there your treasure will also be.

To be transformed by the renewing of your mind is to put all your confidence in the heavenly promises of God, but you have to live in this world too.

It's hard to worship in bondage to those who dont know God. Be prepared to die.

CRIB

You know it is easy to say you love Jesus and believe he is God, but hearing his Word and living it is what proves that we love Jesus. (Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Jesus told us: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises,’ but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.”

Now you can try to worm your way around these Words all you want, but these are the Words of God and he is our boss. Some day you will need to face him and then see if he will accept your watered down version of his Word.

 

[Silenus]

Just to dip my toe in the water . . .

Giver

(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises,’ but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.”

Now you can try to worm your way around these Words all you want, but these are the Words of God and he is our boss. Some day you will need to face him and then see if he will accept your watered down version of his Word.

However, this argument doesn't address articfox's argument (good job, by the way, to fox). The scripture which follows the verses you just quoted, Romans 13, clearly states that the government exists to administer authority. Jesus or the apostles also never rebuke people for being involved in government, either in the military or otherwise. The New Testament included members of the church who were soldiers and government officials. I, also, don't think that, right after he starts talking about vengeance, Paul names an institute ordained by him to exact vengeance is a coincidence. I think anyone who makes the no Christians in government, no Christians in war, case has a hard exegesis ahead of them in regards to Romans 13.

An interesting question is, if you assume a country can wage war and Christians can be involved in government, under what circumstances is war okay, and is assassination an allowable tactic?

 

[DiscipleDave]

As I've said, if you can stand around and watch those who want to invade your country, or your home and violate those you love and just say 'if God wants my daughter not to be raped he won't allow it', I have a WHOLE lot of respect for your self control. People have free will, and the unfortunate result of free will is that people hurt one another. There's a time for everything under heaven, and when someone invades your home or your country, that might just be 'a time to kill'.

You say

if you can stand around and watch those who want to invade your country

Whose country ? i own nothing, but all that i have belongs to God.

or your home

Whose Home? the home that i own is not mine, but belongs to God, everything in it, and around it belongs to God, Therefore it is not mine, but His, and if it be His, He will protect it and those who live inside it, who are His also. Only those who think their home is actually theirs, go about to protect it by all means possible.

There's a time for everything under heaven, and when someone invades your home or your country, that might just be 'a time to kill'.

There is a time to kill ????? What doctrine is this ? For i assure you it is not from the teachings of Christ and His Disciples. From wence then does this thinking arrive from, and from what doctrine?

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[mooduck1]

You say




There is a time to kill ????? What doctrine is this ? For i assure you it is not from the teachings of Christ and His Disciples. From wence then does this thinking arrive from, and from what doctrine?
Ecclesiasties 3:3 - from the word of God...perhapse your Bible doesn't contain an "old testement" or are you one who thinks that the old testement is not valid anymore?

]

 

[DiscipleDave]

You say




There is a time to kill ????? What doctrine is this ? For i assure you it is not from the teachings of Christ and His Disciples. From wence then does this thinking arrive from, and from what doctrine?
Ecclesiasties 3:3 - from the word of God...perhapse your Bible doesn't contain an "old testement" or are you one who thinks that the old testement is not valid anymore?

]

i see, so you are a follower of Moses and his teachings. As to your question am i one who thinks that the old testement is not valid anymore? Answer Yes and No, Yes it is valid for testimony, History, and Truth, But NO, to that we have to obey any part of it, unless you are a Jew, who still lives and believes the OT. Jesus Christ gave us a New Covenant, The New Testiment. The NT even teaches us that the Old is old, and that the New is better. It also teaches us, that if the Old did not have flaws, there would be no need for the New, but because there is a New, Better covenant under Christ, the Old is done away with, that we should not longer obey the old, but be subject to the teachings of our Master Jesus Christ.
The Disciples of Jesus Christ had to correct many people in those days, because they accepted Christ yet tried to continue to live in the laws of Moses ( ie by being circumcised ) The Disciples said this was not so.
Are you then a follower of Christ and His teachings or a follower of Moses and his???

Should we obey the OLD TESTIMENT????
Find out here >
http://members.aol.com/discipledave/book/ObeyOld.html

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[Cribstyl]

You know it is easy to say you love Jesus and believe he is God, but hearing his Word and living it is what proves that we love Jesus. (Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Jesus told us: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises,’ but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.”

Now you can try to worm your way around these Words all you want, but these are the Words of God and he is our boss. Some day you will need to face him and then see if

he will accept your watered down version of his Word.

What does the Bible say about a Christian serving in the military?
​

http://www.gotquestions.org/military-Christian.html

 

[Cribstyl]

Jesus marveled when a Roman Centurion (officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The Centurion’s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many Centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5,8,13; 27:54; Mark 15:39,44-45; Luke 7:2,6; 23:47; Acts 10:1,22; 21:32; 22:25-26; 23:17,23; 24:23; 27:1,6,11,31,43; 28:16).
Historically the places and the titles may have changed, but our armed forces should be just as favorably valued as the Centurions of the Bible. Being a soldier was highly revered. For example, Paul describes Epaphroditus, a fellow Christian as a “fellow soldier” (Philippians 2:25). The Bible also uses military terms to describe being strong in the Lord by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20).
Yes, the Bible does address serving in the military, directly and implicitly. The Christian men and women who serve their country with character, dignity, and honor, can rest assured that the civic duty they perform is condoned and respected by our Sovereign God. Those who serve in the military deserve our respect and our thanks.

 

[Gwenyfur]

What does the Bible say about a Christian serving in the military?​

http://www.gotquestions.org/military-Christian.html

from your site:

Yes, the Bible does address serving in the military, directly and implicitly. The Christian men and women who serve their country with character, dignity, and honor, can rest assured that the civic duty they perform is condoned and respected by our Sovereign God. Those who serve in the military deserve our respect and our thanks.

Which is another reason the Corp's motto is Semper Fidelis - Always Faithful

Our Priorities are G-d, country, Corps

and

Our values are Honor Courage Commitment.

Real people serve in the military, and while the wars are usually political, our service is personal...and the rewards are often spiritual.

You can quote the Old Law and what the people in the Old Testament did, but that doesn’t change the fact that Jesus came and completed the Law. What he told us to do is now what we have to live. If you don’t have the faith to live his Word, than ask his Holy Spirit to help you. You can read what he told us to do, so just say yes, and then ask him to please give you the grace to live his Word.

You can question my walk with Messiah however you wish to. I know what He's done in my life, and the darkness He's pulled me from. Funny you condemn one of the tools He used to do it: The Marine Corps

Howl to the winds if you like, I know the path G-d gave me.

 

[mooduck1]

i see, so you are a follower of Moses and his teachings. As to your question am i one who thinks that the old testement is not valid anymore? Answer Yes and No, Yes it is valid for testimony, History, and Truth, But NO, to that we have to obey any part of it, unless you are a Jew, who still lives and believes the OT. AH we agree here. The Old TESTAMENT IS valid for testamony, history and TRUTH. SO.... if the OT is valid for truth, then why do you not accept the TRUTH of the concept laid out in Holy Scripture that 'there is a time to kill and a time to die'. Jesus constantly quoted the TRUTH in the OT, and apparently, for him, when he laid down his life for us that it was 'A TIME TO DIE' rather than a time to kill.

Jesus Christ gave us a New Covenant, The New Testiment. The NT even teaches us that the Old is old, and that the New is better. It also teaches us, that if the Old did not have flaws, there would be no need for the New, but because there is a New, Better covenant under Christ, the Old is done away with, that we should not longer obey the old, but be subject to the teachings of our Master Jesus Christ. I'm sorry brother, you are in error here. No scripture is flawed and all of it is valid for teaching and witness. Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. There is a substantial difference.
The Disciples of Jesus Christ had to correct many people in those days, because they accepted Christ yet tried to continue to live in the laws of Moses ( ie by being circumcised ) The Disciples said this was not so. REALLY? Peter disagreed. Remember? there was a big dispute about that. They came to the agreement that Christians who were not brought up as Jews would not have to be circumsized. Apparently this issue wasn't as clear to the Palestinian Apostles (Jesus' original follwers)....why? because they believed that the OT was Truth.
Are you then a follower of Christ and His teachings or a follower of Moses and his???
OF course, I am a follower of the GOD of moses, abraham, and the father of JESUS.
Should we obey the OLD TESTIMENT???? The quote from Ecclesiastes was not a command, it was a statement of obvious truth. The context is clear. Perhapse if you open your heart to the word of God a little, you will see this. I'm not saying that we have to obey the levitical laws, but we must not reject the TRUTH that is found in the context of the OT and to reject it as you seem to have done takes Jesus teachings out of a context that even his closest followers would have grown up with and accepted.