Justifyable War?

[seekthetruth909]

And this is the problem.

So many people when confronted with this issue will ask, "What should WE do in such a case?" and forget to qualify just who the "WE" are?

WE the church?

WE the citizens of America?

They are not the same thing. What America should do is not necessarily what the church should do and vice versa. America is of the world; the church is not.

Kinda hard to imagine Jesus and Peter flying Blackhawk helicopters and gunning down enemy Iraqis isn't it?

Seems to me they would rather be wandering about Bagdad healing the sick and preaching the good news.... even if it meant they would be killed by the enemy completely without a "Kill them before they kill you" attitude. Indeed, that is just the kind of life Jesus and Peter lived.

Excellent point! The idea of Jesus and Peter flying blackhack helicopters gunning down arabs does seem ridicules.
Seek

 

[mooduck1]

In the case of persecution, absolutely. And for example if a man were to rape and kill a Christian man's young daughter, the Christ-like thing for the father to do would be to forgive him.

However, if the father were present when the rapist was attacking the little girl, it would be his responsibility to do everything you could to protect her. I'm not suggesting that killing the man should be the goal. It should not. But taking action in a case like this is not a sin. It would be a sin to do nothing in the name of "peace".

Preach on Sister!!!

 

[Ysabel]

This is rather interesting.

During WW2, we tried to stay separated from the war raging in Europe and Asia. Until Pearl Harbor. Even then people were crying to anyone who would listen about the evil of war.

During Korea, again we'd had enough of war, but stood up to the spread of communism.

Vietnam, we again stood up to communism, and were sent packing with our tails between our legs. While over here, our society fell apart at the seams. Nothing resembling the harmony of our childhoods remained in what was left in the wake of LBJ and Nixon.

Somalia and Desert Storm left the US even more willing to stay separated from the conflicts brewing around us. The Clinton Administration had effectively cut the military and the dollars spent on defense. Leaving us with unprotected borders, insufficient security, unsupervised immigration, and 9/11.

We are 4 years into Operation Iraqi Freedom, and the War on Terror. The irony of this whole mess is, the arguments in Washington D.C. are nearly verbatim as those voiced 35 years ago in the midst of the Vietnam Conflict.

While politics and human nature will not change, the need for a strong, determined and resolute military to protect us sheep is vital to our survival.

 

[Ysabel]

To love God you need to hear his Word and live it, and this is some of his Word:(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” (Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

You really like to repeat yourself,young man. Didn't anyone tell you it was rude to say the same thing over and over again?

 

[Giver]

You really like to repeat yourself,young man. Didn't anyone tell you it was rude to say the same thing over and over again?

Rude may be one of the kindest things people have called me.

You obviously need to hear what I have written over and over again, because you still want to believe human reasoning rather that what God tells us. (1 Corinthians 1:19-21) “As scripture says: I shall destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing all the learning of the learned. Where are the philosophers now? Where are the scribes? Where are any of our thinkers today? Do you see now how God has shown up the foolishness of human wisdom? If it was God’s wisdom that human wisdom should not know God, it was because God wanted to save those who have faith through the foolishness of the message that we preach.”

 

[Ysabel]

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

No need to keep harping and thumping. That's not polite either.

 

[Giver]

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

No need to keep harping and thumping. That's not polite either.

Is it being polite to watch people follow Satan and not keep yelling at them to stop?

 

[Quijote]

So after the urging of a friend, I've taken to looking deeper into my views of whether for a Christian there is such thing as justifiable war or whether we are to take Christ's command to 'turn the other cheek' to mean that we should basically be doormats for our enemies unless God himself avenges us. So, I've picked up my dictionary of early Christian beliefs and I must confess I am a bit astonished by what I've found. Of the early Christian writings that exist including the ones in the NT , there seems to be unanimous opinion that warfare for any reason is wrong...period even as late as as the 300's. early church writings absolutely condemn war of any kind for a real follower of Christ. Biblical references we all have memorized so here is another outside the Bible as an example. Soldiers WERE apparently allowed to stay in the army so long as they did not kill - 'A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and and to refuse to do so if commanded...if he is unwilling to comply he must be rejected for baptism....a military or civic magestrate who wears purple must resign or be rejected...if an applicant seeks to become a soldier he must be rejected, for he is dispised by God..' - hippolytus

Is it only after Constantine that we find any doctrines of 'just war' against other people? IF so, what are the consequences and responsabilities for us now??

Here's what the Catechism of the CAtholic Church teaches us CAtholics about your question (I know you're not Catholic, but thought it might be pertinent to the conversation ):

III. SAFEGUARDING PEACE
Peace
2302 By recalling the commandment, "You shall not kill,"[93] our Lord asked for peace of heart and denounced murderous anger and hatred as immoral.
Anger is a desire for revenge. "To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit," but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution "to correct vices and maintain justice."[94] If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. The Lord says, "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."[95]

2303 Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven."[96]

2304 Respect for and development of human life require peace. Peace is not merely the absence of war, and it is not limited to maintaining a balance of powers between adversaries. Peace cannot be attained on earth without safeguarding the goods of persons, free communication among men, respect for the dignity of persons and peoples, and the assiduous practice of fraternity. Peace is "the tranquillity of order."[97] Peace is the work of justice and the effect of charity.[98]

2305 Earthly peace is the image and fruit of the peace of Christ, the messianic "Prince of Peace."[99] By the blood of his Cross, "in his own person he killed the hostility,"[100] he reconciled men with God and made his Church the sacrament of the unity of the human race and of its union with God. "He is our peace."[101] He has declared: "Blessed are the peacemakers."[102]

2306 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.[103]

Avoiding war
2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.[104]

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."[105]

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.
Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.[106]

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.[107]

2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."[108]

2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.
Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide.

2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."[109] A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.

2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations;[110] it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.

2316 The production and the sale of arms affect the common good of nations and of the international community. Hence public authorities have the right and duty to regulate them. The short-term pursuit of private or collective interests cannot legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and compromise the international juridical order.

2317 Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war:
Insofar as men are sinners, the threat of war hangs over them and will so continue until Christ comes again; but insofar as they can vanquish sin by coming together in charity, violence itself will be vanquished and these words will be fulfilled: "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."[111]

IN BRIEF
2318 "In [God's] hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind" (Job 12:10).

2319 Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.

2320 The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator.

2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.

2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 # 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

2323 Because it should be treated as a person from conception, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed like every other human being.

2324 Intentional euthanasia, whatever its forms or motives, is murder. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator.

2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.

2326 Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin.

2327 Because of the evils and injustices that all war brings with it, we must do everything reasonably possible to avoid it. The Church prays: "From famine, pestilence, and war, O Lord, deliver us."

2328 The Church and human reason assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflicts. Practices deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes.

2329 "The arms race is one of the greatest curses on the human race and the harm it inflicts on the poor is more than can be endured" (GS 81 # 3).

2330 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God" (Mt 5:9).

 

[Giver]

Here's what the Catechism of the CAtholic Church teaches us CAtholics about your question (I know you're not Catholic, but thought it might be pertinent to the conversation ):

The Catholic Church has done everything it can do to water down the Word and make it sound like it is agreeing with what Jesus taught, but that is all it has done. If you read carefully their watered down version of what Jesus commanded us to live you will see that it doesn’t call people to live God’s Word.
Jesus taught: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
There is something else everyone should look at and take very seriously; (Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”


You have in the beginning of your post explained what Paul taught.

 

[Cribstyl]

Those who believe that a country should not have a military build up of weapons and soldiers should also consider a country without police and governments. The truth of the matter is, we have to protect freedoms and a peaceful way of life.

Yes, in these mordern times, soldier are christians and christians are soldiers.
We volenteer to fight against those who are sworn to "kill all the christians" and the western way of life.
As a former christian soldier, I have seen first hand the enemies of our freedoms and democracy, and for our childrens sake we should be vigilent because our enemies are worse than the Philisetines, Pharoahs and the Egyptians.

If we elect wise leaders that devote themselves to God, our generation will be led by the counsel of the Godly.

The bible teach us who are enemies of God and the freedom we must defend as a nation.


The bible teaches us individual values through the commandments. Some people confuse the battles of the flesh and spirit.
Soldiers have to be loyal to defend our country from those who would destroy our freedoms and way of life.



In war you dont allow sworn enemies of your nation to conceal weapons of mass destruction or you will regret it when they strike with their objective to destroy your peace for generations to come.

As we expirience the drug lords of South America and other countries with rouge leaders, we see a weakened governments that cannot garantee freedom, peace, safety and oportunity to work or worship.

Some of you enjoy the freedom that men of integrity have given their blood to defend. The occupations that you wont take means that someone without Christ may have to die for you, while you appear to preach love.
Bottom line is this, as a nation we have to be willing to fight to protect the freedom of our people or we will become as slaves fighting for the right to be more than dogs.

CRIBSTYL

 

[Giver]

Those who believe that a country should not have a military build up of weapons and soldiers should also consider a country without police and government. The truth of the matter is we have to protect freedoms and a peaceful way of life.
Yes, in these mordern times, soldier are christians and christians are soldiers. We volenteer to fight agaisnt those who would "kill all the christians".
As a former christian soldier I've seen first hand the enemies of our freedoms and for our childrens sake we should be vigilent because our enemies are worse than Pharoah and Egyptians.

If we elect wise leader that devote themselves to God, our era will be led by the counsel of the Godly.


The bible teaches us individual values through the commandments. Soldiers have to be loyal to defend our country from those who would destroy our freedoms and way of life.

CRIBSTYL

Again! The world needs an army, police force, and laws, but Christian are not part of the world, and do not need to be part of these things.

(John 17:14-18) “I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them, because they belong to the world no more than I belong to the world. I am not asking you to remove them from the world, but to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.”

(John 17:20) “I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me.”
(1 Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teaching that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”

 

[razzelflabben]

Those who believe that a country should not have a military build up of weapons and soldiers should also consider a country without police and governments. The truth of the matter is, we have to protect freedoms and a peaceful way of life.

Yes, in these mordern times, soldier are christians and christians are soldiers.
We volenteer to fight against those who are sworn to "kill all the christians" and the western way of life.
As a former christian soldier, I have seen first hand the enemies of our freedoms and democracy, and for our childrens sake we should be vigilent because our enemies are worse than the Philisetines, Pharoahs and the Egyptians.

If we elect wise leaders that devote themselves to God, our generation will be led by the counsel of the Godly.

The bible teach us who are enemies of God and the freedom we must defend as a nation.


The bible teaches us individual values through the commandments. Some people confuse the battles of the flesh and spirit.
Soldiers have to be loyal to defend our country from those who would destroy our freedoms and way of life.



In war you dont allow sworn enemies of your nation to conceal weapons of mass destruction or you will regret it when they strike with their objective to destroy your peace for generations to come.

As we expirience the drug lords of South America and other countries with rouge leaders, we see a weakened governments that cannot garantee freedom, peace, safety and oportunity to work or worship.

Some of you enjoy the freedom that men of integrity have given their blood to defend. The occupations that you wont take means that someone without Christ may have to die for you, while you appear to preach love.
Bottom line is this, as a nation we have to be willing to fight to protect the freedom of our people or we will become as slaves fighting for the right to be more than dogs.

CRIBSTYL

Did not Isreal ask for a King like the other nations when God wanted to be their King? I guess my point is, that government is necessary, it is vital, the question is whether we accept God's laws, or not.

But that isn't the only thing to deal with, God also puts those in power that He wishes. Now the arguement could be made, why vote, why fight, if God will put them here, the answer is that God chooses to use us to accomplish His purpose.

 

[razzelflabben]

Again! The world needs an army, police force, and laws, but Christian are not part of the world, and do not need to be part of these things.

I don't understand this thinking (even in light of the scriptures you gave), As long as we live in the this world, we will need the laws of this world. In fact, God commands us to submit to the laws of the land. As believers, it is not man's law that we do without, but rather that God's law is above man's.

Recently a situation occured in our church in which the question was raised about following the leadership of the church. The problem is, that God is the authority we are to follow. Period. If the leadership asks us to do something that is against God's law, we refuse and in church terms, "count the cost". It isn't a matter of not needing the law, but rather the priority of the law.

1 Peter 2:13

King James Version (KJV) Public Domain
http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=34 http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=24 http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2


13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

 

[Giver]

I don't understand this thinking (even in light of the scriptures you gave), As long as we live in the this world, we will need the laws of this world. In fact, God commands us to submit to the laws of the land. As believers, it is not man's law that we do without, but rather that God's law is above man's.

Recently a situation occured in our church in which the question was raised about following the leadership of the church. The problem is, that God is the authority we are to follow. Period. If the leadership asks us to do something that is against God's law, we refuse and in church terms, "count the cost". It isn't a matter of not needing the law, but rather the priority of the law.

1 Peter 2:13

King James Version (KJV) Public Domain



13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

That is right we are to follow, obey, Jesus. Jesus told us: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Now when the governing authorities told Peter and the rest of the apostles not to preach in Jesus name, what did Peter tell them? (Acts 4:19-20) “You must judge whether in God’s eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard.”

 

[razzelflabben]

That is right we are to follow, obey, Jesus. Jesus told us: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Now when the governing authorities told Peter and the rest of the apostles not to preach in Jesus name, what did Peter tell them? (Acts 4:19-20) “You must judge whether in God’s eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard.”

Continue please.....draw it all together if you will

 

[Quijote]

The Catholic Church has done everything it can do to....

Yup! For 2,000 years

 

[Cribstyl]

Again! The world needs an army, police force, and laws, but Christian are not part of the world, and do not need to be part of these things.

Say it ten times and think about those who hold those possitions.

Brother, we live in the world but we're not of the world. Why did Jesus chose Matthew and Zacheus if their occupation disqualify them from being His friend or followers?

(John 17:14-18) “I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them, because they belong to the world no more than I belong to the world. I am not asking you to remove them from the world, but to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.”

(John 17:20) “I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me.”
(1 Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teaching that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”

Your quote in red above is misapplied to a text that spoke only about His chosen 12 (11) who would have to go through more trials and even matyrdom for their confession of who Jesus is.

Your other texts quilts a sweater that only you can wear.

CRIB

 

[Giver]

Say it ten times and think about those who hold those possitions.

Brother, we live in the world but we're not of the world. Why did Jesus chose Matthew and Zacheus if their occupation disqualify them from being His friend or followers?

Your quote in red above is misapplied to a text that spoke only about His chosen 12 (11) who would have to go through more trials and even matyrdom for their confession of who Jesus is.

Your other texts quilts a sweater that only you can wear.

CRIB

I must have been reading your mind, because I thought you might come back with that excuse, and that is why I added: (John 17:20) “I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me.”

 

[TruthMiner]

Those who believe that a country should not have a military build up of weapons and soldiers should also consider a country without police and governments. The truth of the matter is, we have to protect freedoms and a peaceful way of life.

Who is "WE"? We Christians or We citizens of a country in the world?

If you meant "WE citizens," you go ahead and do that. We Christians do not get involved in such things.

Yes, in these mordern times, soldier are christians and christians are soldiers.
We volenteer to fight against those who are sworn to "kill all the christians" and the western way of life.

Kill them before they kill you. Do not love your enemies but kill.

As a former christian soldier, I have seen first hand the enemies of our freedoms and democracy, and for our childrens sake we should be vigilent because our enemies are worse than the Philisetines, Pharoahs and the Egyptians.

Well you might want to convince Americans they should kill before they are killed. But it won't convince true disciples of Christ. America is one thing; the church is another. This nation of God, the church, does not wage war and kill. It does not take up arms but does as our Lord did, be crucified for the love of others. He did not take up arms and kill.

If we elect wise leaders that devote themselves to God, our generation will be led by the counsel of the Godly.

The bible teach us who are enemies of God and the freedom we must defend as a nation.

America is not Israel of the Old Testament.

If you are so concerned about your guarding your worldly comforts even to the point of killing other human beings, perhaps Christianity is not for you.

 

[Cribstyl]

I must have been reading your mind, because I thought you might come back with that excuse, and that is why I added: (John 17:20) “I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me.”

No...I was reading your mind, because by you quilting John 17:14-18 to verse 20 you fail to validate text that isolated that, these disciples were called out, prayed for, and were not to resume their occupation in the world. They were to be eyewitnesses and follow Him in their matyrdom.

Peace
CRIB