Justifyable War?

[elsbeth]

You're going to argue against a Messianic Jew about the proper understanding of Jewish culture?

No offense to her, but she lives in our MODERN culture, as do we all. And the link which she gave to back up her position goes to a web site entitled "Guns and the Christian" from a church in Georgia. YES, when anybody turns what Jesus said totally around I will argue.

 

[ScottBot]

No offense to her, but she lives in our MODERN culture, as do we all. And the link which she gave to back up her position goes to a web site entitled "Guns and the Christian" from a church in Georgia. YES, when anybody turns what Jesus said totally around I will argue.

She didn't turn it around, she put it into context.

 

[elsbeth]

She didn't turn it around, she put it into context.

I beg your pardon, but she turned it from what most people interpret as meaning not to resist someone striking you to, in her words "asserting your will to not tolerate violence against yourself, and your willingness to commit violence in defense of yourself, and loved ones." That is turning it completely around. And, as I stated, her "context" is a web site called "Guns and Christians". NOT what I would consider as scholarly.

 

[mooduck1]

It is written to not resist evil, if you see another harming another, yes do what you can to try to help, this is not evil in the sight of God. but do not kill the one that is doing the harm. If then you kill the one who is doing the harm, you have sealed his/her fate to burn in Hell for all eternity. But if they live, they can repent of their deeds and turn to Christ, and be Saved, this should be our hope for that one who is doing the harm to another.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

What if killing them is the only way to stop them? What if they are so eager to kill your family that they wont stop until they are dead? I'll save my family and lean on grace if I'm wrong in that case. Noone is saying a Christian should be eager to and it would be a major tragety if I had to kill a person before he was saved but that wouldn't make it morally wrong.

 

[ScottBot]

Additionally, the point has been raised "If I kill a violent perpetrator, I could be killing a brother (in Christ)."

Umm, excuse me, but how in the world can a person bent on doing violence to my family (or anyone for that matter) for personal, selfish gain be a "brother in Christ". I don't see anything in the Gospel that calls for Christians to go around murder, robbing, beating, and raping strangers.

 

[Loukuss]

I could never take anyone seriously who promotes a website such as "guns and christians".
what a joke.

 

[ScottBot]

I could never take anyone seriously who promotes a website such as "guns and christians".
what a joke.

Then I guess this will probably rub you the wrong way too...

 

[DiscipleDave]

What if killing them is the only way to stop them? What if they are so eager to kill your family that they wont stop until they are dead? I'll save my family and lean on grace if I'm wrong in that case. Noone is saying a Christian should be eager to and it would be a major tragety if I had to kill a person before he was saved but that wouldn't make it morally wrong.

It is a sin, and is against God to kill another, even the soldiers were instructed to do violence to no man. Answer me this, if your family is killed, could God have prevented it ? Is it His Will, if in fact they were killed. Know you not that your days are numbered, if on July 17, 2011 God has appointed for your family to die. ( hypothetical situation here ) Then on March 5, 2008 when your house is burglarized and the burglar is bent on killing your entire family, Do you think God will allow this to happen, when it is not their time to die yet? So if you try what you may to stop the perpetrator, short of killing them, have faith in God.

i will tell you were my faith is, on this matter and for my family. i Truly believe that God will not allow a person bent on killing me and my family, into my house, unless it was time for me and my family to go be with Him in Heaven, which by the way is far better then here on Earth. Therefore if someone did break into my house, bent on killing me and my family, both me and my family would try to talk to this person about Christ, and if we die, so be it, we have gained Heaven, and if we live, so be it, we will live for Christ until we are with Him.

i have not failed to pick up a hitchiker, if i am by myself and able to do so. People have said that i am crazy to pick up every hitchiker that i have ever seen, if i am able to do so. But here is my Faith, God knows that i will pick them up, if i am able to do so, therefore if an axe murderer was hitchiking, bent on killing his next victim, my confidence and Faith is such that by the time i come around, he is in the woods taking a pee. and i do not see him, therefore God has prevented me from picking him up. And if i do pick him up, an axe murderer, it is because God has allowed me to do so, and there is only two things why God would allow this to happen, 1) for me to witness to this person about Christ or 2) its my time to go to Heaven.

If you Faith is such as that you believe God would not allow a person to break into your house and kill your family, then because of your faith, it will be done even as your faith believes.

Ask for His protection, and lean not unto your own protection, believing, then shall you recieve.

But you go on and hold to your weapons and alarms, and your self defence training to protect you and yours, but as for me, our weapon is Christ, and we need nothing else.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[TruthMiner]

You do realize that if Christians hadn't waged war in a "crusade-type manner" the cresent moon flag of Islam would be flying all over the globe.

You mean we might have had the privilege of being persecuted for the faith?

 

[ScottBot]

You mean we might have had the privilege of being persecuted for the faith?

That would have happened about 1000 years ago. You'd have a full beard and kneel on a rug facing Mecca 5 times a day by now.

 

[WarriorAngel]

So after the urging of a friend, I've taken to looking deeper into my views of whether for a Christian there is such thing as justifiable war or whether we are to take Christ's command to 'turn the other cheek' to mean that we should basically be doormats for our enemies unless God himself avenges us. So, I've picked up my dictionary of early Christian beliefs and I must confess I am a bit astonished by what I've found. Of the early Christian writings that exist including the ones in the NT , there seems to be unanimous opinion that warfare for any reason is wrong...period even as late as as the 300's. early church writings absolutely condemn war of any kind for a real follower of Christ. Biblical references we all have memorized so here is another outside the Bible as an example. Soldiers WERE apparently allowed to stay in the army so long as they did not kill - 'A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and and to refuse to do so if commanded...if he is unwilling to comply he must be rejected for baptism....a military or civic magestrate who wears purple must resign or be rejected...if an applicant seeks to become a soldier he must be rejected, for he is dispised by God..' - hippolytus

Is it only after Constantine that we find any doctrines of 'just war' against other people? IF so, what are the consequences and responsabilities for us now??

Let me answer, if it is ok.

First of all, we have two different views in Luke and Matthew. In the Garden of Gethsemene.
Matthew says that Christ tells Peter to put down the sword, for those who live by the sword, will die by the sword.

Then in Luke, Christ says...'Go out and sell your cloak and buy a sword.'

So do the Apostles tell opposing stories, although Luke finishes it as Matthew does...?

No...
Basically the message is; live peaceful lives. Do not be seeking out death and destruction of others.

Do not carry a weapon to force yourselves on others.
Do not act in violence to convert others.

It will only be proof to rebuff others, and they will never convert with a sincere heart, and all you will attract are war mongers...not peaceful and loving people.

Ok, so why does Christ tell us to sell our cloak to buy a sword?

MY opinion is Christ knew at future times, those who oppose Christ and His people would come in and annihilate them IF they did not defend themselves.

If Christ's ppl were to be eradicated...who would carry on truth for all nations and all generations?

So, although we are to die for Christ...martyred for the sake of faith... does not mean on a global scale we should stand still and let our children be slaughtered. [the future]

Those who use the sword shall die by the sword can be two fold.
If we use force, we are teaching others that force is good...hence we have generations of blood hungry men out for blood. Therefore, the soul who taught this shall perish. It is not the message to convert genuine loving souls to Jesus.

Also, chances are good if we are weilding a sword, we are in combat and shall die a physical death by the sword.

Think large and small.

On the large scale, we are to defend life... even if protecting them by killing the one trying to murder.
On a small scale, for Christ we should let our enemies kill us 'for the sake of Christ'.

NOT always are there wars over faith in Christ. Sometimes a blood hungry dictator will ensue unnecessary death to millions...and we need to defend them.

Examples; Hitler, Stalin, Moa Sae Tung. [sp]

Does this make any sense?

 

[TruthMiner]

That would have happened about 1000 years ago. You'd have a full beard and kneel on a rug facing Mecca 5 times a day by now.

And what makes you think I would be doing that?

You don't have much faith in God's people and ways do you?

Perhaps, I would be beheaded by Muslims for serving Christ.

Did Christ teach, "Kill them before they kill you?"

 

[Gwenyfur]

No offense to her, but she lives in our MODERN culture, as do we all. And the link which she gave to back up her position goes to a web site entitled "Guns and the Christian" from a church in Georgia. YES, when anybody turns what Jesus said totally around I will argue.

Okay if you prefer rabbinical writings on the matter
http://www.sbl-site.org/PDF/Novakovic_Cheek.pdf

For cultural context of course ...

I do not twist the words of Messiah

 

[Gwenyfur]

I beg your pardon, but she turned it from what most people interpret as meaning not to resist someone striking you to, in her words "asserting your will to not tolerate violence against yourself, and your willingness to commit violence in defense of yourself, and loved ones." That is turning it completely around. And, as I stated, her "context" is a web site called "Guns and Christians". NOT what I would consider as scholarly.

I chose the christian site, strictly because you are christian without the benefit of a jewish heritage ... thought it would make it simpler for you to understand...

Yes Christians have guns...some are even lifetime members of the NRA

Me? I'm a Marine

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

re .... check history ... it wasn't 6th day (peter's denial).
ps.. you'll have to use jewish history(ies), biblical, religious, and secular. gentiles never get it right.

 

[elsbeth]

I chose the christian site, strictly because you are christian without the benefit of a jewish heritage ... thought it would make it simpler for you to understand...

You might pick your sites more carefully. I STILL find the whole idea of "Guns and Christians" quite wrong-headed.

Okay if you prefer rabbinical writings on the matter
http://www.sbl-site.org/PDF/Novakovic_Cheek.pdf

For cultural context of course ...

I do not twist the words of Messiah

OK. At least this is a scholarly piece. Have you read it? While it makes your point about the striking on the right cheek POSSIBLY being a backhand (it DOES quote people who disagree with that) and so being an insult, it definately does NOT support your assertion here

instead asserting your will to not tolerate violence against yourself, and your willingness to commit violence in defense of yourself, and loved ones.

I've just read through the entire article you linked to, and it does NOT indicate that "turning the other cheek" says ANYTHING about your willingness to commit violence.
I stand by my assertion- to say that Jesus' words really mean this:

instead asserting your will to not tolerate violence against yourself, and your willingness to commit violence in defense of yourself, and loved ones.

is to twist and turn His words away from what seems to be the plain meaning AND away from what the majority of Christians have always took those words to mean. Jesus, Himself, did NOT resist the evil done to Him, and we are to follow His lead.

 

[Gwenyfur]

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=6889

 

[WarriorAngel]

You might pick your sites more carefully. I STILL find the whole idea of "Guns and Christians" quite wrong-headed.

OK. At least this is a scholarly piece. Have you read it? While it makes your point about the striking on the right cheek POSSIBLY being a backhand (it DOES quote people who disagree with that) and so being an insult, it definately does NOT support your assertion here

I've just read through the entire article you linked to, and it does NOT indicate that "turning the other cheek" says ANYTHING about your willingness to commit violence.
I stand by my assertion- to say that Jesus' words really mean this:

is to twist and turn His words away from what seems to be the plain meaning AND away from what the majority of Christians have always took those words to mean. Jesus, Himself, did NOT resist the evil done to Him, and we are to follow His lead.

Ok, I will be fair...[since no one noticed my post.]

tell us what Christ meant when in Luke's Gospel..
Jesus says 'Sell your cloak and buy a sword...'

 

[mooduck1]

Let me answer, if it is ok.

First of all, we have two different views in Luke and Matthew. In the Garden of Gethsemene.
Matthew says that Christ tells Peter to put down the sword, for those who live by the sword, will die by the sword.

Then in Luke, Christ says...'Go out and sell your cloak and buy a sword.'

So do the Apostles tell opposing stories, although Luke finishes it as Matthew does...?

No...
Basically the message is; live peaceful lives. Do not be seeking out death and destruction of others.

Do not carry a weapon to force yourselves on others.
Do not act in violence to convert others.

It will only be proof to rebuff others, and they will never convert with a sincere heart, and all you will attract are war mongers...not peaceful and loving people.

Ok, so why does Christ tell us to sell our cloak to buy a sword?

MY opinion is Christ knew at future times, those who oppose Christ and His people would come in and annihilate them IF they did not defend themselves.

If Christ's ppl were to be eradicated...who would carry on truth for all nations and all generations?

So, although we are to die for Christ...martyred for the sake of faith... does not mean on a global scale we should stand still and let our children be slaughtered. [the future]

Those who use the sword shall die by the sword can be two fold.
If we use force, we are teaching others that force is good...hence we have generations of blood hungry men out for blood. Therefore, the soul who taught this shall perish. It is not the message to convert genuine loving souls to Jesus.
Total sense1 thanks!
Also, chances are good if we are weilding a sword, we are in combat and shall die a physical death by the sword.

Think large and small.

On the large scale, we are to defend life... even if protecting them by killing the one trying to murder.
On a small scale, for Christ we should let our enemies kill us 'for the sake of Christ'.

NOT always are there wars over faith in Christ. Sometimes a blood hungry dictator will ensue unnecessary death to millions...and we need to defend them.

Examples; Hitler, Stalin, Moa Sae Tung. [sp]

Does this make any sense?

total sense, thanks!

 

[mooduck1]

It is a sin, and is against God to kill another, even the soldiers were instructed to do violence to no man. Answer me this, if your family is killed, could God have prevented it ? Is it His Will, if in fact they were killed. Know you not that your days are numbered, if on July 17, 2011 God has appointed for your family to die. ( hypothetical situation here ) Then on March 5, 2008 when your house is burglarized and the burglar is bent on killing your entire family, Do you think God will allow this to happen, when it is not their time to die yet? So if you try what you may to stop the perpetrator, short of killing them, have faith in God.

i will tell you were my faith is, on this matter and for my family. i Truly believe that God will not allow a person bent on killing me and my family, into my house, unless it was time for me and my family to go be with Him in Heaven, which by the way is far better then here on Earth. Therefore if someone did break into my house, bent on killing me and my family, both me and my family would try to talk to this person about Christ, and if we die, so be it, we have gained Heaven, and if we live, so be it, we will live for Christ until we are with Him.

i have not failed to pick up a hitchiker, if i am by myself and able to do so. People have said that i am crazy to pick up every hitchiker that i have ever seen, if i am able to do so. But here is my Faith, God knows that i will pick them up, if i am able to do so, therefore if an axe murderer was hitchiking, bent on killing his next victim, my confidence and Faith is such that by the time i come around, he is in the woods taking a pee. and i do not see him, therefore God has prevented me from picking him up. And if i do pick him up, an axe murderer, it is because God has allowed me to do so, and there is only two things why God would allow this to happen, 1) for me to witness to this person about Christ or 2) its my time to go to Heaven.

If you Faith is such as that you believe God would not allow a person to break into your house and kill your family, then because of your faith, it will be done even as your faith believes.

Ask for His protection, and lean not unto your own protection, believing, then shall you recieve.

But you go on and hold to your weapons and alarms, and your self defence training to protect you and yours, but as for me, our weapon is Christ, and we need nothing else.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

As I've said, if you can stand around and watch those who want to invade your country, or your home and violate those you love and just say 'if God wants my daughter not to be raped he won't allow it', I have a WHOLE lot of respect for your self control. People have free will, and the unfortunate result of free will is that people hurt one another. There's a time for everything under heaven, and when someone invades your home or your country, that might just be 'a time to kill'.