Justifyable War?

[SharonL]

I don't think that the "turn the other cheek" applys to people that do not believe in God coming to take away what God has Blessed us with.

All throughout the Bible there are battles, that have God's Blessings, it is not believers against believers in the Bible.

The "turn the other cheek" is Christian brothers - not someone standing in front of you to kill you or dealing with the mentality of the enemy that would strap 10 year old kids loaded with bombs into the back seat of a car and blow them up - What kind of God would that be - We have God given freedoms and Blessings - I don't think God would be in agreement to stand and watch a bunch of non-believers take it away from us and stand still and turn the other cheek.

 

[KTatis]

I don't think that the "turn the other cheek" applys to people that do not believe in God coming to take away what God has Blessed us with.

All throughout the Bible there are battles, that have God's Blessings, it is not believers against believers in the Bible.

The "turn the other cheek" is Christian brothers - not someone standing in front of you to kill you or dealing with the mentality of the enemy that would strap 10 year old kids loaded with bombs into the back seat of a car and blow them up - What kind of God would that be - We have God given freedoms and Blessings - I don't think God would be in agreement to stand and watch a bunch of non-believers take it away from us and stand still and turn the other cheek.

I agree.

 

[seekthetruth909]

I've been told that Jesus meant His teachings for individuals, not nations. But I don't buy that argument. I can see where there could be some rare instances (stopping Hitler, for example) where a nation needs to step in to stop something. But it should be rare, and ABSOLUTELY justified, no other choice, in my opinion.

Excellent point. I have also heard this argument and you are right, it doesn’t make sense. Nations are comprised of individuals, some who are Christians. I have often wondered about this. Jesus commands us to love our neighbor and our enemy. Would killing them be loving them? On the other hand if we stand by and let our neighbor be killed, are we loving our neighbor? This poses a moral dilemma for Christians. Another way of looking at it in regards to Germany, Japan, and World War 2, is that in the end by declaring war on them, winning, and rebuilding the country, America actually ended up helping it’s enemy. Although dropping two atomic bombs on two Japanese cities and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians including women and childre,n did not seem like the Christians thing to do. I feel War should be the absolute last resort. If it is fought casualties against the enemy should always be minimized if possible and there should never be civilian targets.



The Anabaptists do have some strong biblical arguments against war in any circumstances. If we have faith in the eternal and as the bible says, life is just a breath that passes quickly, should we really care about the injustices in the temporal world? In a few temporal seconds we will all be in heaven.

Seek

Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. . .’ ” —John 18:36


Luke 3:14, And the soldiers likewise demanded of him,saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages....

 

[seekthetruth909]

It is a sin, and is against God to kill another, even the soldiers were instructed to do violence to no man. Answer me this, if your family is killed, could God have prevented it ? Is it His Will, if in fact they were killed. Know you not that your days are numbered, if on July 17, 2011 God has appointed for your family to die. ( hypothetical situation here ) Then on March 5, 2008 when your house is burglarized and the burglar is bent on killing your entire family, Do you think God will allow this to happen, when it is not their time to die yet? So if you try what you may to stop the perpetrator, short of killing them, have faith in God.

i will tell you were my faith is, on this matter and for my family. i Truly believe that God will not allow a person bent on killing me and my family, into my house, unless it was time for me and my family to go be with Him in Heaven, which by the way is far better then here on Earth. Therefore if someone did break into my house, bent on killing me and my family, both me and my family would try to talk to this person about Christ, and if we die, so be it, we have gained Heaven, and if we live, so be it, we will live for Christ until we are with Him.

i have not failed to pick up a hitchiker, if i am by myself and able to do so. People have said that i am crazy to pick up every hitchiker that i have ever seen, if i am able to do so. But here is my Faith, God knows that i will pick them up, if i am able to do so, therefore if an axe murderer was hitchiking, bent on killing his next victim, my confidence and Faith is such that by the time i come around, he is in the woods taking a pee. and i do not see him, therefore God has prevented me from picking him up. And if i do pick him up, an axe murderer, it is because God has allowed me to do so, and there is only two things why God would allow this to happen, 1) for me to witness to this person about Christ or 2) its my time to go to Heaven.

If you Faith is such as that you believe God would not allow a person to break into your house and kill your family, then because of your faith, it will be done even as your faith believes.

Ask for His protection, and lean not unto your own protection, believing, then shall you recieve.

But you go on and hold to your weapons and alarms, and your self defence training to protect you and yours, but as for me, our weapon is Christ, and we need nothing else.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

I admire your faith. Maybe one day my faith will be that strong.

Seek

 

[seekthetruth909]

Jesus said " Love your enemies "
NOT KILL THEM.
We are to obey those who are in authority over us, UNLESS they ask us to do something which is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ our Master and Lord,

Acts:5:29: Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Therefore if men ( ie our government ) tells us to do something which is against Christ's teaching, we are NOT to obey that, we should obey Christ and not men. War is inevitable, does not mean True Christians will condone it, the anti-christ is also inevitable, does not mean we should condone him either. NOWHERE in the teachings of Jesus Christ, or the teachings of those who heard Christ, tells us to kill, or to go to war with, nor does it even imply we should condone such acts.
True Christians do not condone war of any kind. We are to love our enemies and forgive them, :

Mt:6:15: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Do we forgive our enemies or did we go over there and kill them ? Neither will the Father forgive America, as it is written so shall it be done.

A website with more information about this very topic that is being discussed can be found :

http://members.aol.com/discipledave/book/War.html

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

I agree. Why don't most people just be honest and say Jesus tells me to love my enemy, but because I am a sinner and fall short of the glory of Christ, I am too weak to do this.
As a Chrstian I have learnt to sometimes turn the other cheek when it comes to verbal abuse but at this present moment I could never do that against physical violence against myself,my family, friends, and even strangers.I would have to fight back.It would seem like the right thing to do, but spiritually from what Jesus says, it is probably the wrong thing to do. But hey, nobody's perfect. [Except Christ]

Seek

PS I love that old Kenny Rodgers country song, "The Coward of the County"

 

[Giver]

Let me answer, if it is ok.

First of all, we have two different views in Luke and Matthew. In the Garden of Gethsemene.
Matthew says that Christ tells Peter to put down the sword, for those who live by the sword, will die by the sword.

Then in Luke, Christ says...'Go out and sell your cloak and buy a sword.'

So do the Apostles tell opposing stories, although Luke finishes it as Matthew does...?

No...
Basically the message is; live peaceful lives. Do not be seeking out death and destruction of others.

Do not carry a weapon to force yourselves on others.
Do not act in violence to convert others.

It will only be proof to rebuff others, and they will never convert with a sincere heart, and all you will attract are war mongers...not peaceful and loving people.

Ok, so why does Christ tell us to sell our cloak to buy a sword?

MY opinion is Christ knew at future times, those who oppose Christ and His people would come in and annihilate them IF they did not defend themselves.

If Christ's ppl were to be eradicated...who would carry on truth for all nations and all generations?

So, although we are to die for Christ...martyred for the sake of faith... does not mean on a global scale we should stand still and let our children be slaughtered. [the future]

Those who use the sword shall die by the sword can be two fold.
If we use force, we are teaching others that force is good...hence we have generations of blood hungry men out for blood. Therefore, the soul who taught this shall perish. It is not the message to convert genuine loving souls to Jesus.

Also, chances are good if we are weilding a sword, we are in combat and shall die a physical death by the sword.

Think large and small.

On the large scale, we are to defend life... even if protecting them by killing the one trying to murder.
On a small scale, for Christ we should let our enemies kill us 'for the sake of Christ'.

NOT always are there wars over faith in Christ. Sometimes a blood hungry dictator will ensue unnecessary death to millions...and we need to defend them.

Examples; Hitler, Stalin, Moa Sae Tung. [sp]

Does this make any sense?

The world has the right to defend it’s self forcefully, but a Christian isn’t part of the world. Jesus told us: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

As far why Jesus told the disciples to by swords, well I will give you the reason, which the people who wrote the Jerusalem bible gave. “The apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly.” Also we should ask ourselves would two swords be enough if Jesus meant for them to be used defend themselves?

 

[Giver]

So after the urging of a friend, I've taken to looking deeper into my views of whether for a Christian there is such thing as justifiable war or whether we are to take Christ's command to 'turn the other cheek' to mean that we should basically be doormats for our enemies unless God himself avenges us. So, I've picked up my dictionary of early Christian beliefs and I must confess I am a bit astonished by what I've found. Of the early Christian writings that exist including the ones in the NT , there seems to be unanimous opinion that warfare for any reason is wrong...period even as late as as the 300's. early church writings absolutely condemn war of any kind for a real follower of Christ. Biblical references we all have memorized so here is another outside the Bible as an example. Soldiers WERE apparently allowed to stay in the army so long as they did not kill - 'A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and and to refuse to do so if commanded...if he is unwilling to comply he must be rejected for baptism....a military or civic magestrate who wears purple must resign or be rejected...if an applicant seeks to become a soldier he must be rejected, for he is dispised by God..' - hippolytus

Is it only after Constantine that we find any doctrines of 'just war' against other people? IF so, what are the consequences and responsabilities for us now??

Amen! Thank you, and my God bless you.

As a personal note; Jesus told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason.

 

[elsbeth]

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=6889

You keep making my point FOR me. The site you linked to above basically makes the same point as the last one, that Jesus said NOT to respond violently to evil, but to use non-violent means. NON-VIOLENT, not violent, as your original post said. Jesus did NOT say it was ok to use violent means to resist.

 

[elsbeth]

I don't think that the "turn the other cheek" applys to people that do not believe in God coming to take away what God has Blessed us with.

All throughout the Bible there are battles, that have God's Blessings, it is not believers against believers in the Bible.

The "turn the other cheek" is Christian brothers - not someone standing in front of you to kill you or dealing with the mentality of the enemy that would strap 10 year old kids loaded with bombs into the back seat of a car and blow them up - What kind of God would that be - We have God given freedoms and Blessings - I don't think God would be in agreement to stand and watch a bunch of non-believers take it away from us and stand still and turn the other cheek.

There is nothing in the sciptures to indicate that Jesus' words were in regards to Christian brothers. I'm not saying this is easy- or that I do any better than anybody else. But I think Jesus' meaning is pretty clear- we just don't trust Him enough to follow it.

 

[ScottBot]

Hmmm, I find it hard to reconcile the teachings of JEsus in the NT with the teachings about resisting evil with force in the OT. So, did God make a mistake? Did He change His mind? Does He need to apologize for all of the slain Canaanites, Moabites, Hittites, etc.... killed by His people on His orders? Show me how the OT squares with the NT?

 

[Giver]

Hmmm, I find it hard to reconcile the teachings of JEsus in the NT with the teachings about resisting evil with force in the OT. So, did God make a mistake? Did He change His mind? Does He need to apologize for all of the slain Canaanites, Moabites, Hittites, etc.... killed by His people on His orders? Show me how the OT squares with the NT?

It should not be too hard to understand. Jesus said he came to complete the Law; well he now wants his people to trust in him and to love everyone. Jesus also gave us his Holy Spirit to give us the grace to do, as he wants.

 

[Giver]

It should not be too hard to understand. Jesus said he came to complete the Law; well he now wants his people to trust in him and to love everyone. Jesus also gave us his Holy Spirit to give us the grace to do, as he wants.

Also Jesus makes it very clear when he said:(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” (Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

 

[ModernDaySpyridon]

The question should also be raised, is it possible that Jesus came to demonstrate the path of non-retaliation?

That, even though he could have destroyed his executioners and accusers in the blink of an eye, and been completely justified in doing so, but instead he chose to submit to an unjust death in order to achieve our salvation.

 

[desmalia]

The question should also be raised, is it possible that Jesus came to demonstrate the path of non-retaliation?

In the case of persecution, absolutely. And for example if a man were to rape and kill a Christian man's young daughter, the Christ-like thing for the father to do would be to forgive him.

However, if the father were present when the rapist was attacking the little girl, it would be his responsibility to do everything you could to protect her. I'm not suggesting that killing the man should be the goal. It should not. But taking action in a case like this is not a sin. It would be a sin to do nothing in the name of "peace".

 

[Giver]

In the case of persecution, absolutely. And for example if a man were to rape and kill a Christian man's young daughter, the Christ-like thing for the father to do would be to forgive him.

However, if the father were present when the rapist was attacking the little girl, it would be his responsibility to do everything you could to protect her. I'm not suggesting that killing the man should be the goal. It should not. But taking action in a case like this is not a sin. It would be a sin to do nothing in the name of "peace".

When Jesus told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason, I shared this with my wife and her reaction was very much like yours, and she became angry with me, and stormed out of the room. I didn’t argue about it, because I knew she had a good personal relationship with Jesus and he would tell her is his way. It wasn’t long and she came back and said she wouldn’t want me to hurt him.

 

[ModernDaySpyridon]

In the case of persecution, absolutely. And for example if a man were to rape and kill a Christian man's young daughter, the Christ-like thing for the father to do would be to forgive him.

However, if the father were present when the rapist was attacking the little girl, it would be his responsibility to do everything you could to protect her. I'm not suggesting that killing the man should be the goal. It should not. But taking action in a case like this is not a sin. It would be a sin to do nothing in the name of "peace".

I absolutely agree. Protecting the weak or the defenseless is something that I believe is required of all of us, but the question comes down to whether or not we are to partake in wars, even wars against legitimate evil.

In those casesI have a hard time justifying our involvement. I have an even harder time with the bloodthirsty jingoism present in many churches that equates the church with America, and baptises american militarism with the language of spiritual warfare.

 

[Giver]

I absolutely agree. Protecting the weak or the defenseless is something that I believe is required of all of us, but the question comes down to whether or not we are to partake in wars, even wars against legitimate evil.

In those casesI have a hard time justifying our involvement. I have an even harder time with the bloodthirsty jingoism present in many churches that equates the church with America, and baptises american militarism with the language of spiritual warfare.

Also Jesus makes it very clear when he said:(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” (Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

 

[Andyk1987]

if an applicant seeks to become a soldier he must be rejected, for he is dispised by God..' - hippolytus

This is about Cornelius the Centurion
Acts 10:10-16)
The Jews among the group are amazed that Cornelius and other uncircumcised should begin speaking in tongues, praising God. Thereupon Simon Peter orders that Cornelius and his followers be baptized.
The controversial aspect of Gentile conversion is taken up later at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15).

God doesn't dispise soldiers and Im sure Cornelius had to kill a few people to get to were he was in the army.

 

[Gwenyfur]

I know from experience, G-d uses the military in His ways...we may only be seen as pawns of the government, "baptized in the language of spiritual warfare" and "bloodthirsty" by some of you here...

Based on that I must ask...

Who do you really believe is in control? G-d ???
or the government??

In whom is your faith? G-d? or the government.

You might be surprised when you start examining the answers...

As for me, I serve Y'shua, I've also worn a uniform and carried a weapon in the desert, as have many other people on this board. We don't love Messiah any less than you, we don't serve any less faithfully than you...and perhaps...just perhaps, if you stop and realize that G-d is truly in control, the HE had a reason for each of us to be where HE wanted us to be....where HE could use us for HIS purpose in HIS time, despite man's politics!

G-d Himself ordered people to war....ordered the complete genocide of nations, right down to their livestock...and you want to say that we should let evil run rampant over our world today in the name of pacifism...

I sure hope you like oppression, abuse, torture and subjugation, from the sound of it, you'd prefer that to facing the fact that some of us have shed blood to protect the rest of our brethren from that fate.

 

[Giver]

I know from experience, G-d uses the military in His ways...we may only be seen as pawns of the government, "baptized in the language of spiritual warfare" and "bloodthirsty" by some of you here...

Based on that I must ask...

Who do you really believe is in control? G-d ???
or the government??

In whom is your faith? G-d? or the government.

You might be surprised when you start examining the answers...

As for me, I serve Y'shua, I've also worn a uniform and carried a weapon in the desert, as have many other people on this board. We don't love Messiah any less than you, we don't serve any less faithfully than you...and perhaps...just perhaps, if you stop and realize that G-d is truly in control, the HE had a reason for each of us to be where HE wanted us to be....where HE could use us for HIS purpose in HIS time, despite man's politics!

G-d Himself ordered people to war....ordered the complete genocide of nations, right down to their livestock...and you want to say that we should let evil run rampant over our world today in the name of pacifism...

I sure hope you like oppression, abuse, torture and subjugation, from the sound of it, you'd prefer that to facing the fact that some of us have shed blood to protect the rest of our brethren from that fate.

To love God you need to hear his Word and live it, and this is some of his Word:(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” (Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”