Justifyable War?

[CShephard53]

So after the urging of a friend, I've taken to looking deeper into my views of whether for a Christian there is such thing as justifiable war or whether we are to take Christ's command to 'turn the other cheek' to mean that we should basically be doormats for our enemies unless God himself avenges us

The. Government. Does. Not. Bear. The. Sword. For. Nothing. We. Are. Christians. They. Are. Not. In other words, the government has a different role than the Christian and it's God's job to judge and condemn them, not ours. And the governement should never present itself as a doormat. Ever. Never ever.
Christians, yes, we should act like a doormat when we are attacked (physically or otherwise). However, when God's glory is attacked we have every right to get angry. I will also mention that I have every intention to defend anyone in my presence who is in physical trouble. call me crazy, but everyone is worthy to have me lay down my life and well-being for them if it's worth it to God's Son.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Jesus said " Love your enemies "
NOT KILL THEM.
We are to obey those who are in authority over us, UNLESS they ask us to do something which is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ our Master and Lord,

Acts:5:29: Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Therefore if men ( ie our government ) tells us to do something which is against Christ's teaching, we are NOT to obey that, we should obey Christ and not men. War is inevitable, does not mean True Christians will condone it, the anti-christ is also inevitable, does not mean we should condone him either. NOWHERE in the teachings of Jesus Christ, or the teachings of those who heard Christ, tells us to kill, or to go to war with, nor does it even imply we should condone such acts.
True Christians do not condone war of any kind. We are to love our enemies and forgive them, :

Mt:6:15: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Do we forgive our enemies or did we go over there and kill them ? Neither will the Father forgive America, as it is written so shall it be done.

A website with more information about this very topic that is being discussed can be found :

http://members.aol.com/discipledave/book/War.html

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[Loukuss]

Jesus said " Love your enemies "
NOT KILL THEM.
We are to obey those who are in authority over us, UNLESS they ask us to do something which is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ our Master and Lord,

Acts:5:29: Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Therefore if men ( ie our government ) tells us to do something which is against Christ's teaching, we are NOT to obey that, we should obey Christ and not men. War is inevitable, does not mean True Christians will condone it, the anti-christ is also inevitable, does not mean we should condone him either. NOWHERE in the teachings of Jesus Christ, or the teachings of those who heard Christ, tells us to kill, or to go to war with, nor does it even imply we should condone such acts.
True Christians do not condone war of any kind. We are to love our enemies and forgive them, :

Mt:6:15: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Do we forgive our enemies or did we go over there and kill them ? Neither will the Father forgive America, as it is written sho shall it be done.

A website with more information about this very topic that is being discussed can be found :

http://members.aol.com/discipledave/book/War.html

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

While I agree with your post for the most part, I kindly suggest that you avoid the "true christians dont do..." type of statements.
Just a friendly suggestion.

 

[DiscipleDave]

While I agree with your post for the most part, I kindly suggest that you avoid the "true christians dont do..." type of statements.
Just a friendly suggestion.

if what i said is lie, then address that, but if what i say is True, then it is True.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[Loukuss]

if what i said is lie, then address that, but if what i say is True, then it is True.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

Hmm, I supose you are right, friend. Preach on!

 

[ScottBot]

if what i said is lie, then address that, but if what i say is True, then it is True.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

True Christians agree on the essentials, and are free to disagree on secondary matters, or at least that is what I keep getting told. I would say that pacifism is a secondary matter.

ALso, what you said is your opinion on the matter, which hardly counts as an objective truth.

 

[mooduck1]

So let's bring this back from the theoretical to the 'real' world. I have the TOTAL respect for anyone who is SO spiritual that he can stare down a murderer who has broken into his home and is going to kill his wife and his children and actrually say 'well, the lord says the other cheek so, I'm going to let him stab me and my wife and my children to death. I have to confess that I am not that spiritual. Many of you would call me a bad Christian, but history has shown time and time again that when a country is overtly pacifistic, that it's enemies, who do not share it's views are more than happy to fly planes into buildings at the very to kill some of us at the very least and at the most completely take over. I guess if push comes to shoive I'd choose to fight (after exprending every tother peacful means to resolve the situation) and even go to war to protect my country and my kid, and lean on God's grace, and mercy for my aparenlty abhorent behavior.

 

[CShephard53]

I'm not a pacifist. I support a government defending itself. I support war, you might say, if the ends justifies the means. What does that look like? Think WWII. The ends justified the means there. I don't see how any thinking Christian could not support war... it's clearly the job of the government to bear the sword, and definitely not in vain. Christians have a different role, certainly, but when God calls someone to the military they better be ready to kill someone if need be. The Bible is very clear. Jesus said to love our enemies, sure. But if you're in a warlike situation and being shot at, you are not going to lay down your gun and try and give your enemy a hug. You're going to shoot them. Contradiction? No, I don't think so. If God's a pacifist, then why command Joshua and Moses to build an army? Why tell David to attack certain peoples? The answer is that in this fallen world, God is not a pacifist. Ideally, in a sinless world, yes, He would be a pacifist. But that's not the world we live in.

 

[DiscipleDave]

True Christians agree on the essentials, and are free to disagree on secondary matters, or at least that is what I keep getting told. I would say that pacifism is a secondary matter.

your doctrine of " You are free to disagree on secondary matters " from what Scriptures do you derive this thinking? Scriptures teach us to be of one mind, not in disagreement.

Phil:2:2: Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1Pt:3:8: Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Rom:15:6: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Cor:13:11: Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

So then where are the Scriptures that teach us we can disagree on secondary matters, Lo this is a doctrine of men, and is not of God.

ALso, what you said is your opinion on the matter, which hardly counts as an objective truth.

Did i say it was my opinion? If what i say and teach is from me and is from my opinion and my own thinking, i will clearly say ( In my opinion ) but if what i say and teach, i say is the Truth, then it is from Christ and not from me. What i teach is not opinion, but is Truth, and what i teach is not contrary to Scriptures, because they are Truth, what i teach is what He taught me, Therefore what He tells me, i tell you. Therefore if i merely repeat what He tells me, how then is it my opinion? You do error, for it is not i, but He that is in me.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

So let's bring this back from the theoretical to the 'real' world. I have the TOTAL respect for anyone who is SO spiritual that he can stare down a murderer who has broken into his home and is going to kill his wife and his children and actrually say 'well, the lord says the other cheek so, I'm going to let him stab me and my wife and my children to death. I have to confess that I am not that spiritual. Many of you would call me a bad Christian, but history has shown time and time again that when a country is overtly pacifistic, that it's enemies, who do not share it's views are more than happy to fly planes into buildings at the very to kill some of us at the very least and at the most completely take over. I guess if push comes to shoive I'd choose to fight (after exprending every tother peacful means to resolve the situation) and even go to war to protect my country and my kid, and lean on God's grace, and mercy for my aparenlty abhorent behavior.

Brother, if you knew where you were going when you die, or are killed, you would welcome death.

Phil:1:21: For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

2Cor:5:8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

i also would rather be dead and be in Heaven, then to live on this satan filled planet for a lifetime.

Lk:17:33: Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

So then defend yourself, take up arms against another, fight for your right to live longer on this planet which belongs to satan:

2Cor:4:4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But i warn you now, so that you may not be ignorant concerning this one thing:

Rv:13:10: He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

So it is an easy choice for me: die being passive and go to Heaven, or fight and be aggressive to live longer in this evil world. For me the choice is an easy one.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[mooduck1]

Brother, if you knew where you were going when you die, or are killed, you would welcome death.
So it is an easy choice for me: die being passive and go to Heaven, or fight and be aggressive to live longer in this evil world. For me the choice is an easy one.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

Friend, I accept the truth that 'to die is to gain', and shall smile at death when it comes to me, however, it's not just about me, and there are certainly more worse things than death..
Another 'real' rather than theoretical example-
Recently, a man was convicted for breaking into a home and violating a mother then killing her, then chasing the 12 yr old daughter into her room, and killing her as well. Sadly, the father wasn't home or this probably would not have happened. But what if he was? The Biblical model that my pacifist friends use in ignoring the whole Old Testement, would have that father welcome the predator into his home, have him merely call the police and watch as his wife was violated and killed and daughter was murdered. Brother, when Jesus said 'turn the other cheek', I cannot accept he meant that a man must allow others to rape abuse and murder his Family and friends.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Friend, I accept the truth that 'to die is to gain', and shall smile at death when it comes to me, however, it's not just about me, and there are certainly more worse things than death..
Another 'real' rather than theoretical example-
Recently, a man was convicted for breaking into a home and violating a mother then killing her, then chasing the 12 yr old daughter into her room, and killing her as well. Sadly, the father wasn't home or this probably would not have happened. But what if he was? The Biblical model that my pacifist friends use in ignoring the whole Old Testement, would have that father welcome the predator into his home, have him merely call the police and watch as his wife was violated and killed and daughter was murdered. Brother, when Jesus said 'turn the other cheek', I cannot accept he meant that a man must allow others to rape abuse and murder his Family and friends.

It is written to not resist evil, if you see another harming another, yes do what you can to try to help, this is not evil in the sight of God. but do not kill the one that is doing the harm. If then you kill the one who is doing the harm, you have sealed his/her fate to burn in Hell for all eternity. But if they live, they can repent of their deeds and turn to Christ, and be Saved, this should be our hope for that one who is doing the harm to another.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[Gwenyfur]

Turning the other cheek:

Culturally when you were struck in the face it was with the back of the hand...an insult, where the person what put in a position of subservience, less than equal...
to turn the other cheek was to put the attacker in a position where to strike you again they must do it with an open hand, thereby acknowledging you as an equal.

Somehow that doesn't stike me as being a "passive doormat", but instead asserting your will to not tolerate violence against yourself, and your willingness to commit violence in defense of yourself, and loved ones.

Link

 

[desmalia]

Turning the other cheek:

Culturally when you were struck in the face it was with the back of the hand...an insult, where the person what put in a position of subservience, less than equal...
to turn the other cheek was to put the attacker in a position where to strike you again they must do it with an open hand, thereby acknowledging you as an equal.

Somehow that doesn't stike me as being a "passive doormat", but instead asserting your will to not tolerate violence against yourself, and your willingness to commit violence in defense of yourself, and loved ones.

Link

Very interesting point. Thanks!

 

[Carey]

So after the urging of a friend, I've taken to looking deeper into my views of whether for a Christian there is such thing as justifiable war or whether we are to take Christ's command to 'turn the other cheek' to mean that we should basically be doormats for our enemies unless God himself avenges us. So, I've picked up my dictionary of early Christian beliefs and I must confess I am a bit astonished by what I've found. Of the early Christian writings that exist including the ones in the NT , there seems to be unanimous opinion that warfare for any reason is wrong...period even as late as as the 300's. early church writings absolutely condemn war of any kind for a real follower of Christ. Biblical references we all have memorized so here is another outside the Bible as an example. Soldiers WERE apparently allowed to stay in the army so long as they did not kill - 'A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and and to refuse to do so if commanded...if he is unwilling to comply he must be rejected for baptism....a military or civic magestrate who wears purple must resign or be rejected...if an applicant seeks to become a soldier he must be rejected, for he is dispised by God..' - hippolytus

Is it only after Constantine that we find any doctrines of 'just war' against other people? IF so, what are the consequences and responsabilities for us now??

Did God himself make war for Samson?
Joshua?
David?

When Jesus came the jews were a conquered people.

They did not have the ability to make war.
Christs example wa the way for them to have some peace in their hearts while under the control of a pagan empire.

Christ never condemned soldiers.

Christ did say he would come back as a LION not a lamb and make war. But he did not say that a nation should lay odwn and allow the weak to be forced to worship a
a false religion like for example ISLAM>

 

[JimfromOhio]

Biblically, There were times when God Himself authorizes and condones war as an instrument of justice. Reading the Scriptures, I saw that God has given human governments the right to fight wars for self-protection and as a means of justice. Reading the Old Testament I have noticed where God Himself authorized war and even ordered the Israelites to wage war. And Scripture is clear in teaching that God still ordains government as the guardian of order and justice in society, and He still gives government the authority to punish evildoers, even by waging war, when necessary (Romans 13:1-4).

Jesus said in Matthew 24:6
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

 

[elsbeth]

Turning the other cheek:

Culturally when you were struck in the face it was with the back of the hand...an insult, where the person what put in a position of subservience, less than equal...
to turn the other cheek was to put the attacker in a position where to strike you again they must do it with an open hand, thereby acknowledging you as an equal.

Somehow that doesn't stike me as being a "passive doormat", but instead asserting your will to not tolerate violence against yourself, and your willingness to commit violence in defense of yourself, and loved ones.

Link

I just don't buy explanations such as this. It is turning what Jesus said COMPLETELY around, so that instead of reinforcing "resist not evil" it is instead, in your words above, "asserting...your willingness to commit violence in defense". If Jesus had meant that, I think He would have said it.
I once sat thru a Baptist Sunday schoolclass where the Pastor and several others explained away a very large portion of the sermon on the mount with such stuff. He (Jesus) said what He said, and we shouldn't try to explain it away.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Scriptures say this about a man who doesn't provide for and protect his family

1Timonty5:7-8

7And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.

8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

It doesn't take twisting to say that G-d does not intend for us to sit on our self righteous laurels ...

 

[ScottBot]

Turning the other cheek:

Culturally when you were struck in the face it was with the back of the hand...an insult, where the person what put in a position of subservience, less than equal...
to turn the other cheek was to put the attacker in a position where to strike you again they must do it with an open hand, thereby acknowledging you as an equal.

Somehow that doesn't stike me as being a "passive doormat", but instead asserting your will to not tolerate violence against yourself, and your willingness to commit violence in defense of yourself, and loved ones.

Link

Its amazing how Scripture takes on new meaning when you put it into its proper cultural context.

 

[ScottBot]

I just don't buy explanations such as this. It is turning what Jesus said COMPLETELY around, so that instead of reinforcing "resist not evil" it is instead, in your words above, "asserting...your willingness to commit violence in defense". If Jesus had meant that, I think He would have said it.
I once sat thru a Baptist Sunday schoolclass where the Pastor and several others explained away a very large portion of the sermon on the mount with such stuff. He (Jesus) said what He said, and we shouldn't try to explain it away.

You're going to argue against a Messianic Jew about the proper understanding of Jewish culture?