Justification by Works?

[doubtingmerle]

I dont think I'm better than anyone.

I think Christ is better than us all..

Ah, so you make no claim that Christians have an internal change that makes them better than others.

So if Christians are not better than others, why does James say we are justified by works?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Ah, so you make no claim that Christians have an internal change that makes them better than others.

So if Christians are not better than others, why does James say we are justified by works?

James was saying that faith in Christ will have works which proves faiths existence, not that justification is the result of works.

The works, as previously stated, are works done in purity of spirit - works done that don't stand in disobedience but rather, with a oneness of spirit with Christ.

They might not look better than if the atheist did the same. What makes them different is the spirit in which they are done, the reason for the acts are no longer man centered, but rather, they are God centered, born out of love.

1 Corinthians 10:31

"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

It is this that is different. The axis of our life changes, as our heart is changed.

And with the heart and axis change, we become able through Christ, to overcome personal sins and challenges. This is where we can see people (as individuals) change for the better (as compared to their former state, not as compared to others).

 

[Oldmantook]

I don't see anywhere that the context justifies adding "in his own strength" into these verses. It looks like something that was inserted in there to make it say what one wants it to say.

But suppose Romans 4:5 really does mean what you say. Then Rom 4:5 would be listing two requirements to have righteousness imputed:

1) don't do works in your own strength
2) believe in him who justifies the ungodly​

And the promise then is that, if you do those two things, righteousness will be imputed to you.

So are those the only two requirements? If a person does those two things, and lives like the devil, is he still counted as righteous?

Didn't you read verses 1-2?
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
According to the flesh in v.1 is equated to justified by works in v.2. Just what do you suppose this means?
It means works of the flesh = works done in our own flesh/strength which are nothing to boast about before God. What else can it say according to your view?

Of course we don't do works in our own strength to earn our salvation. Of course belief is necessary for justification. Don't you believe these things??

Didn't I already quote Heb 5:9 where it states obedience is necessary for eternal life? So if you live like the devil you can be absolutely certain that you are not still not counted as righteous.

 

[doubtingmerle]

So if you live like the devil you can be
absolutely certain that you are not still not counted as righteous.

​

I assume you didn't mean the double negative, and you are saying if you live like the devil you are not counted righteous. But I remind you that this is what you said Romans 4:5 means:

But to him that [does not do works in his own strengh], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So you told us that this is a promise that those who do these two things are counted righteous. But now you have added a third requirement, you can't live like the devil. So now we are up to three requirements.

How many more requirements are hidden in the fine print?

So are you saying that some people, namely those who live like the devil, aren't counted righteous even though they do the two things in that verse? Why does the verse promise these people will be counted righteous, if they won't all be counted righteous?

 

[doubtingmerle]

They might not look better than if the atheist did the same. What makes them different is the spirit in which they are done, the reason for the acts are no longer man centered, but rather, they are God centered, born out of love.

​

Atheists too do things that are born out of love. You don't hold a monopoly on love.

​

It is this that is different. The axis of our life changes, as our heart is changed.

​

Sure. Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, Jews, and others have the axis of their life changed as their heart changes. You don't have a monopoly on heart changes.
​

And with the heart and axis change, we become able through Christ, to overcome personal sins and challenges.

​

Atheists also overcome personal sins and challenges. You do not have a monopoly on overcoming challenges.


​

This is where we can see people (as individuals) change for the better (as compared to their former state, not as compared to others).

Atheists also change for the better. You don't have a monopoly on changing for the better.

There, now that you know all that, do you feel more warm to atheists?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Atheists too do things that are born out of love. You don't hold a monopoly on love.

Sure. Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, Jews, and others have the axis of their life changed as their heart changes. You don't have a monopoly on heart changes.


Atheists also overcome personal sins and challenges. You do not have a monopoly on overcoming challenges.


​

Atheists also change for the better. You don't have a monopoly on changing for the better.

There, now that you know all that, do you feel more warm to atheists?

I have friends that are atheists, I don't hold anything against someone for having a different belief set than I do.

Someone's faith is between them and God not between them and me, but if someone wants to know my beliefs or ask me questions I've never been shy about my beliefs.

So no, I don't feel "more warm" toward atheists, as I never felt cold.

Atheists do things out of a different kind of love, what I do is born from a love of God and His people, what they do is from a different place in their heart, since they don't have a relationship with God, they are acting out of their fallen state.

I never said Christians held a monopoly on anything but Christ and salvation. Your coming in with your own preconceived notions about me and my words that are false.

At any rate, since you are just argumentative at this point for no reason instead of asking questions I will take my leave.

There are plenty of people who like fighting with strangers for no reason I'm not one of them. I just thought you could use some answers.

Nice talking to you.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I never said Christians held a monopoly on anything but Christ and salvation. Your coming in with your own preconceived notions about me and my words that are false.

OK, let me remind you what you did say. We were talking about what James says about works and you wrote:

James says there will most certainly be some type of physical or outward proof of our faith, but that doesn't contradict with Grace and it doesn't add or subtract from salvation, it simply shows faiths existence. It outwardly shows the internal change wrought in you by God.

So yes, you were saying that there is an "outward proof of faith", and that the outward proof is the good works that James talks about. But you also admit that both Atheists and Christians have these good works, that they both do them out of love and they are both making moral advances. So if both are doing this, how can the fact that a Christian is doing this be an outward proof of his faith?

 

[Oldmantook]

I assume you didn't mean the double negative, and you are saying if you live like the devil you are not counted righteous. But I remind you that this is what you said Romans 4:5 means:

Thanks for pointing out the double negative. Yes, if Christians live like the devil then they are no longer counted as righteous.

So you told us that this is a promise that those who do these two things are counted righteous. But now you have added a third requirement, you can't live like the devil. So now we are up to three requirements.

Only two are required. Belief and obedience per Jn 3:16 and Heb 5:9. Don't know where you got #3 from? If you refrain from living like the devil, are you not being obedient? One and the same thing, isn't it?

How many more requirements are hidden in the fine print?

So are you saying that some people, namely those who live like the devil, aren't counted righteous even though they do the two things in that verse? Why does the verse promise these people will be counted righteous, if they won't all be counted righteous?

You or I as believers are counted as righteous upon belief. However upon belief, OBEYING is required. If you were familiar with the Greek language you would know that the word translated as "obey" in most English translations in Heb 5:9 is the word hypakouousin which is a present tense participle. Therefore the accurate translation is OBEYING as the present tense participle denotes ongoing action. Thus a believer must continue obeying in order to have eternal life. And that is why 1 Jn 3:7 states
"Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous." Any more questions?

 

[doubtingmerle]

You or I as believers are counted as righteous upon belief. However upon belief, OBEYING is required. If you were familiar with the Greek language you would know that the word translated as "obey" in most English translations in Heb 5:9 is the word hypakouousin which is a present tense participle. Therefore the accurate translation is OBEYING as the present tense participle denotes ongoing action. Thus a believer must continue obeying in order to have eternal life.

Well OK then. So Romans 4:5 really means:

But to him that [does not do works in his own strength], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly [and also obeys and continues obeying], his faith is counted for righteousness.
​

That sure seems to butcher what Paul said, but whatever, suppose this is what Paul meant. Luke 6:30 says, "Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again." Does one need to obey this, and indeed give to everybody who asks of him? If so, I might ask you for everything you have.

 

[Oldmantook]

Well OK then. So Romans 4:5 really means:

But to him that [does not do works in his own strength], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly [and also obeys and continues obeying], his faith is counted for righteousness.
​

That sure seems to butcher what Paul said, but whatever, suppose this is what Paul meant. Luke 6:30 says, "Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again." Does one need to obey this, and indeed give to everybody who asks of him? If so, I might ask you for everything you have.

You butcher the text not to mention rewrite the text in a way that I did not write. Why do you do that??
Apparently you do not believe that obedience is required for eternal life do you?

 

[doubtingmerle]

You butcher the text not to mention rewrite the text in a way that I did not write. Why do you do that??
Apparently you do not believe that obedience is required for eternal life do you?

Actually, no, that is what you told me. You actually quoted the verse with the first red insertion, and then you said one needs to continue obeying for the promise to apply.

But you tell me. Do you or do you not think that a person must continue to obey for the promise of Romans 4:5 to apply?