Justification by Faith Defended!

[amariselle]

You know when I got saved I lived in obedience, but I had no idea that I had to live in obedience, I just did out of love and out of fear. Later I started to live in disobedience. You may ask why, and I can tell you the story if you like, but it's rather long. After a year or two living in sin, I turned back to being obedient. Actually I said to a friend: "It's almost like I have been reborn a second time", and maybe it was?

That first part of your comment sounds wonderful in that we “rest” in Him and He does indeed work through us as we grow in His grace and in Spiritual maturity. I cannot comment on what you said about living in sin, other that to say again, that it is indeed possible for saved, born again and sealed believers to fall into error. It definitely sounds like God directed your steps and guided you back, however, and how wonderful is that? (Perhaps some time you can message me and tell me that story if you like.)

 

[amariselle]

Understood. Please take your time in going over each of the words of the verses I posted so as to give a proper reply. I am patient and I can wait. I would prefer a well thought out reply (even if it took you a week to do it). In any event, may God's love shine upon you today (even though we disagree strongly on the topic of Soteriology).

Indeed, I do always try my best to be thoughtful and honest in my replies.

Blessings to you as well Jason.

 

[112358]

Belief is not a “work” and is not of the “flesh”.

That is correct. Because belief is in fact obedience to a command of God. And obedience to God's commands are also not of the "flesh", they are righteousness. Let that sink in for a while before you respond.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Belief is not a “work” and is not of the “flesh”.

I agree that faith/belief is not a work when a person first comes to the Lord and or when they confess their sins to Him. This is why Paul says we are saved by God's grace through faith (belief) and it is not of outward fleshy works (of which man would boast about) in Ephesians 2:8-9.

True works are:

#1. An outflow of accepting God's grace by faith (belief).
#2. The works of the Lord done through the believer (and it is not the believer doing these works all by his/her own power alone; For Jesus said you can do nothing without me - Jhn 15:5).​

I see works (obedience) as proof that Jesus lives inside of a person
(See 1 John 2:3-4).
I see abiding in Jesus as a means of having salvation (See 1 John 5:12).
So all boasting is in Jesus Christ and never ourselves.

I believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is about refuting Man Directed Works Alone Salvation-ism and or not putting the cart before the horse (with trying to be circumcised so as to be right with God).

 

[amariselle]

That is correct. Because belief is in fact obedience to a command of God. And obedience to God's commands are also not of the "flesh", they are righteousness. Let that sink in for a while before you respond.

I’ve actually thought about this before, so please don’t just assume this is a new idea to me. If our obedience actually involves our “flesh”, then it is indeed of the “flesh.” This flesh is perishing and carnal and will return to dust. Nothing that is of our sinful flesh is worthy to save us.

Again, precisely why we need our Saviour.

 

[amariselle]

I agree that faith/belief is not a work when a person first comes to the Lord and or when they confess their sins to Him. This is why Paul says we are saved by God's grace through faith (belief) and it is not of outward fleshy works (of which man would boast about) in Ephesians 2:8-9.

True works are:

#1. An outflow of accepting God's grace by faith (belief).
#2. The works of the Lord done through the believer (and it is not the believer doing these works all by his own power alone; For Jesus said you can do nothing without me - Jhn 15:5).​

I see works as proof that Jesus lives inside of a person.
I see abiding in Jesus as a means of having salvation (See 1 John 5:12).
So all boasting is in Jesus Christ and never ourselves.

I believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is about refuting Man Directed Works Alone Salvation-ism and or not putting the cart before the horse (with trying to be circumcised so as to be right with God).

I understand where you are coming from and I too see works as evidence for salvation, but I do not see them as the cause of salvation.

Scripture clearly teaches we are saved unto good works, but not by them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I understand where you are coming from and I too see works as evidence for salvation, but I do not see them as the cause of salvation.

Scripture clearly teaches we are saved unto good works, but not by them.

I understand, but for me, when I read Matthew 19:17, it sure sounds like it is saying we are saved by keeping His commandments. For what is the alternative of not keeping his commandments? Does Jesus say we can still have life and disobey Him? When I read things like Matthew 7:26-27, I do not get that impression at all.

 

[zoidar]

I understand where you are coming from and I too see works as evidence for salvation, but I do not see them as the cause of salvation.

Scripture clearly teaches we are saved unto good works, but not by them.

I WAS of that belief before. I never did believe in OSAS though.

Since hearing a teacher called David Bercot I have read the Bible in a new light, not saying he is right about everything, but I think he is making sense of a lot of stuff.

 

[zoidar]

That first part of your comment sounds wonderful in that we “rest” in Him and He does indeed work through us as we grow in His grace and in Spiritual maturity. I cannot comment on what you said about living in sin, other that to say again, that it is indeed possible for saved, born again and sealed believers to fall into error. It definitely sounds like God directed your steps and guided you back, however, and how wonderful is that? (Perhaps some time you can message me and tell me that story if you like.)

Maybe I will, maybe I will ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I WAS of that belief before. I never did believe in OSAS though.

Since hearing a teacher called David Bercot I have read the Bible in a new light, not saying he is right about everything, but I think he is making sense of a lot of stuff.

I believed the same exact way at one time before, too.
Well, I believed in OSAS for like an hour or two, and then examined Scripture and discovered it was not true (even slightly). From that point on: It has been my mission to talk about Conditional Salvation for the Lord for at least 6-7 years now.

 

[amariselle]

I WAS of that belief before. I never did believe in OSAS though.

Since hearing a teacher called David Bercot I have read the Bible in a new light, not saying he is right about everything, but I think he is making sense of a lot of stuff.

I didn’t believe in “OSAS” or eternal security for most of my life, but having read so many Scriptures that confirm this, I can no longer deny it. I have more peace and joy than I ever had, because I am no longer trusting in myself for any part of my salvation.

 

[mark kennedy]

Thanks for clearing that up!



But it really doesn't matter in the end, does it? Since we can't lose our salvation, it doesn't really matter what we believe, as long as we at one time in our life got saved. I know I was saved June 2010. So I can do whatever I like now ... It just doesn't sound right to me.

That question os degonitively settled in Romans 6, shall we sin that grace may oncreas, God forbid! Warns the Apostle. So if you eere to ask Paul why he was worling so much harder then thee other Apostles, be would and did reply, the worls were due to the grace within him.

It's not always understood but a number theological terms are borrowed from financial language, atonement and dispensation for instance. You are in debt, this results in jail or slavery in the first century. Well the spiritual problem isn't a lack of money, it's a lack of righteousness. When Abraham believed the promise, it say in Romans 5, it was credited to him for righteousness. That's not just forgiveness, which is comparable to paying off a debt.salvation isn't just forgiveness, you given spiritual capitol, the means of righteousness is grace.

The Corinthians had an expression, all things are lawful and Paul doesn't argue, he says yes all things a lawfully but not all things are profitable and then the bottom line, he says flee fornication. Ok so you can't lose salvation but it doesn't mean your not subject to discipline, God can destroy tbe body to save the soul. He tells them in 1 Cor. 11, some of you are sick and some of you sleep.

What's more if your born again your new nature is in the image of Christ. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be under the control of the Holy Spirit. He doesn't have to threaten to revoke your salvation, there is no basis for that in the New Testament. What is more Grace is never presented as a licence to sin, that's a gross distortion of justification by grace through faith. The objective is always righteousness.

If you were a slave due to debt and someone paid it off and gave you a job, then starts paying you, don't you think your going to want to spend it?

 

[amariselle]

I understand, but for me, when I read Matthew 19:17, it sure sounds like it is saying we are saved by keeping His commandments. For what is the alternative of not keeping his commandments? Does Jesus say we can still have life and disobey Him? When I read things like Matthew 7:26-27, I do not get that impression at all.

It is in that same chapter that Jesus teaches “let the little children come to me.”

In speaking with this man who asked Him what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus first of all reminded him that no one is “good” but God. (And as we know, Jesus is God)

In pointing this man toward the Law, Jesus was pointing him toward Himself. We can understand this because Paul clarified that the Law is our “schoolmaster” to bring us to Christ.

The Law was added because of “transgressions”, so that our mouths would be stopped and we would all realize how guilty we are before a righteous and Holy God.

Only then can we understand how desperately we need our Saviour. This man believed he had kept the Law perfectly, but he had not. (All have fallen short of the glory of God)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn’t believe in “OSAS” or eternal security for most of my life, but having read so many Scriptures that confirm this, I can no longer deny it. I have more peace and joy than I ever had, because I am no longer trusting in myself for any part of my salvation.

I can understand the emotional appeal, but emotion should not over-ride the many warnings we see in Scripture.

Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Titus 1:16 says we can deny God by a lack of works.
In fact, Matthew 25:30 says to cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For obedience is essential to God's grace.

Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
It doesn't say all who disobey Him.

Titus 2:11-12 says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

 

[mark kennedy]

"They did not enter due to unbelief and these Jewish Christians were thinking about returning to Judiasm"

I have to correct you, they didn't enter due to disobedience.

"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?" (Heb 3:18)

Why were they disobediant? Because the heard his voice and hardened their hearts in unbelief. The refusal to enter Canaan was due to unbelief and their hearts hardened by the decietfulness of sin. Faith and works are not mutually exclusive. A works righteousness and works of righteousness are. Don't confuse the roots with the fruits.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is in that same chapter that Jesus teaches “let the little children come to me.”

In speaking with this man who asked Him what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus first of all reminded him that no one is “good” but God. (And as we know, Jesus is God)

In pointing this man toward the Law, Jesus was pointing him toward Himself. We can understand this because Paul clarified that the Law is our “schoolmaster” to bring us to Christ.

The Law was added because of “transgressions”, so that our mouths would be stopped and we would all realize how guilty we are before a righteous and Holy God.

Only then can we understand how desperately we need our Saviour. This man believed he had kept the Law perfectly, but he had not. (All have fallen short of the glory of God)

Yes, Jesus is God. But the point was that the man could have obeyed if he truly repented of his sins to Jesus and surrendered his life to Him. For it would have been God (Christ) doing the good work within the young rich ruler. On his own, he could not do it, but with Jesus he could overcome the lusts of the flesh (See Romans 13:14 and Romans 8:2-4).

Also, the end of the chapter does not conclude with the futility in keeping the Law. The point made at the end of the chapter was forsaking things within our life as a part of eternal life. His disciples were able to forsake all in following Jesus and so it was not impossible to do what Jesus was saying here.

Furthermore, reading Matthew 19:17 cannot be read plainly and then believed with your interpretation. It has to be ignored because it really does not fit. How is "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments" true? Yet, you are saying nobody can do that? Yet, Jesus says that this is the case. Nowhere does Jesus or another apostle making an ending point about these words about Jesus in Matthew 19:17 to lead us to the conclusion you came to. It seems like if this were true, then other added words in our Bible need to be there. Why would Jesus tell us to do something that was not possible (even though His disciples were able to do it)? It doesn't make sense.

 

[zoidar]

That question os degonitively settled in Romans 6, shall we sin that grace may oncreas, God forbid! Warns the Apostle. So if you eere to ask Paul why he was worling so much harder then thee other Apostles, be would and did reply, the worls were due to the grace within him.

It's not always understood but a number theological terms are borrowed from financial language, atonement and dispensation for instance. You are in debt, this results in jail or slavery in the first century. Well the spiritual problem isn't a lack of money, it's a lack of righteousness. When Abraham believed the promise, it say in Romans 5, it was credited to him for righteousness. That's not just forgiveness, which is comparable to paying off a debt.salvation isn't just forgiveness, you given spiritual capitol, the means of righteousness is grace.

The Corinthians had an expression, all things are lawful and Paul doesn't argue, he says yes all things a lawfully but not all things are profitable and then the bottom line, he says flee fornication. Ok so you can't lose salvation but it doesn't mean your not subject to discipline, God can destroy tbe body to save the soul. He tells them in 1 Cor. 11, some of you are sick and some of you sleep.

What's more if your born again your new nature is in the image of Christ. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be under the control of the Holy Spirit. He doesn't have to threaten to revoke your salvation, there is no basis for that in the New Testament. What is more Grace is never presented as a licence to sin, that's a gross distortion of justification by grace through faith. The objective is always righteousness.

If you were a slave due to debt and someone paid it off and gave you a job, then starts paying you, don't you think your going to want to spend it?

The problem is that is just what I did, used God's grace as a licence to sin ... How many more do this?

 

[amariselle]

I can understand the emotional appeal, but emotion should not over-ride the many warnings we see in Scripture.

The “emotional appeal” is not what led me to surrender my own strivings to save myself or add to His finished work, I can assure you.

Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Indeed, who are we trusting in? In whom is our salvation found?

Titus 1:16 says we can deny God by a lack of works.

Titus 1:15-16
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

The above verses clearly say that the “unbelieving” are defiled. They “profess” they know God, but as they are “unbelieving” they are “abominable” and “disobedient.” The unbelieving have not done “the will of the Father.”

In fact, Matthew 25:30 says to cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Yes. Jesus is teaching a parable here about the Kingdom, which is directly followed by the separation of the sheep and the goats. The sheep inherit the Kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. An inheritance is not something one works for, but something earned by another and given to one who has not earned it.

For obedience is essential to God's grace.

If our obedience is essential to God’s grace, then grace is no more grace, it is “debt”.

Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
It doesn't say all who disobey Him.

Indeed, so what must we do to “work the works of God” and do “the will of the Father”?

Titus 2:11-12 says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

And so we should, as faithful disciples.

 

[ladodgers6]

Uh, Romans 4:5 is talking about how God justifies a person who used to live ungodly before he came to the faith.

3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."
(Titus 3:3-8).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"
(Hebrews 5:9).

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
(Titus 2:11-12).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Yes, I know this. Your point?

 

[amariselle]

Yes, Jesus is God. But the point was that the man could have obeyed if he truly repented of his sins to Jesus and surrendered his life to Him. For it would have been God (Christ) doing the good work within the young rich ruler. On his own, he could not do it, but with Jesus he could overcome the lusts of the flesh (See Romans 13:14 and Romans 8:2-4).

So, why did Jesus need to go to the cross then? Let’s not put the cart before the horse, so to speak. Yes He definitely helps us grow in His grace and in Spiritual maturity, but only after we are saved. And we are saved by Christ and His sacrifice on the cross, not by cleaning up our own lives.

Also, the end of the chapter does not conclude with the futility in keeping the Law. The point made at the end of the chapter was forsaking things within our life as a part of eternal life. His disciples were able to forsake all in following Jesus and so it was not impossible to do what Jesus was saying here.

They were indeed disciples, but they also were not saved through their forsaking all to follow Christ (though He does commend them and refer to Heavenly rewards), the disciples were saved like everyone else, through the death of Christ, the sacrifice He made to take away the sins of the world.

Furthermore, reading Matthew 19:17 cannot be read plainly and then believed with your interpretation. It has to be ignored because it really does not fit. How is "if you will enter into life, keep the commandments" true? Yet, you are saying nobody can do that?

Actually, Scripture is clear that nobody can perfectly keep the Law. So, that isn’t my opinion.

Yet, Jesus says that this is the case. Nowhere does Jesus or another apostle making an ending point about these words about Jesus in Matthew 19:17 to lead us to the conclusion you came to.

When did Jesus or the disciples ever tell anyone that they can and must keep the Law to be saved?

It seems like if this were true, then other added words in our Bible need to be there. Why would Jesus tell us to do something that was not possible (even though His disciples were able to do it)? It doesn't make sense.

His disciples didn’t keep the Law either. No one has, except Christ. Scripture is clear.