Justification by Faith Defended!

[112358]

Yes, we do what we are supposed to do, and with joy as it is our "reasonable service." To say that our obedience is what is necessary to keep us saved, however, is in fact saying that we do contribute to our own salvation. There is no other way to put it. If our own obedience is necessary for us to be saved, then we must in fact earn our own salvation. (Which means, by default, that Christ didn't do enough on the cross, as more is apparently needed from us.)

We must believe to be saved though, yes?
Is that obedience? Is that contributing to our own salvation?
Is believing earning our salvation?
Or since we can't contribute to our own salvation, is belief even necessary?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Judaizers, a group of early Jewish Christians led by James, wanted to impose Moses Law upon the new Gentile Christians converted by Paul, eg must be circumcised, must eat kosher foods, etc in order to be justified(for salvation or as Christians). Paul refused this imposition by stating that "a man is not justified(for salvation) by the works of the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ".

Yes, Paul condemned the idea that we can mix God's grace (i.e. believing in Jesus) with going back to the ceremonial laws within the Law of Moses like circumcision and the dietary laws or the Sabbaths (as a requirement for salvation). I believe that a Christian going back to the Law of Moses as a whole for salvation is a false gospel (and it is the kind of belief that Paul was condemning in the majority of his letters).

By extension, anytime a group of Christians want to impose "justification by works of any Law" or "justification by faith+works of any Law" , they have fallen from grace and departed from the faith(1TIMOTHY.4:1-4) because "justification by works" is also involved in the latter.

1 Timothy 4:1-4 is talking about those who depart from the faith as a result of forbidding to marry, and to command to abstain from eating meat, etc.

Well, I don't believe in forbidding to marry and or abstaining to eat meat. So you misapplied this passage.

Actually, the reference in Scripture that says, "whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Gal 5:4) is in reference to the Old Law. For Galatians 5:2 says that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. So this talk of falling from grace and because one is seeking to be justified by the Law is in context to keeping the Old Testament Law of Moses (Which is no longer binding). For Paul lists various sin in Galatians 5:19-21, and says that they which do such things, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. So Paul is saying obedience is necessary as a part of the faith. However, this is obedience to the Moral Law as a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers (within the New Testament). So Paul is not referring to all law in general within Galatians 5:4.

....... Anytime, a group of Christians pronounce that "you must obey/keep this commandment/law/rule, in order to be saved", they have fallen from grace and departed from the faith, eg pronounce "You must do good works, must be water-baptized, must partake in the Holy Communion, must tithe one-tenth, must eat kosher foods, (single Christians)must not marry, etc or you will go to hell". This is a doctrine of demons.

1. I do not believe water baptism is for salvation (See 1 Peter 3:21).
2. I do not believe that not partaking of the Lord's supper is a salvation issue.
3. I do not believe the tithing command from the Old Testament applies under the New Covenant. Such tithing commands have not been repeated in the New Testament. The New Testament says we are to give what God has purposed in our heart to give.
4. I do not believe the Old Testament dietary laws apply. In fact, besides the Moral Law, the Old Testament Law of Moses is no more. For trying to seek to be justified by the Old Testament Law of Moses means one has fallen from grace.
5. I do not forbid anyone to marry.

Christians are to follow only follow the New Testament commands (which are clearly written down by Jesus and His followers).

"Justified by faith+works" = "Justified by faith" + "Justified by works"

It should be "Justified by faith in Christ" + "Sanctified by works in Christ".
....... God blesses/rewards the former with salvation and blesses/rewards the latter with heavenly crowns.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[zoidar]

Again, that is mixing salvation with discipleship. It is entirely by the grace and mercy of God in Christ, by faith that we are saved and stay saved. (We are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption). Our own obedience will always fall short, this is why we are saved by the obedience of ONE. Jesus will never address anyone with the words "I once knew you but then you were cut off because you weren't a perfectly obedient child." What He will say is "I never knew you". (And He says this to those who trusted in their "many wonderful works" done in His name to save them.)

You are often saying that GodsGrace is misrepresenting you, aren't you misrepresenting me?

I never said that you have to live perfect lives, which I think you are alluding to (?). Not once did I say we are to trust in our works for salvation.

I have no idea as I cannot see anyone else's heart. Many who are truly saved fall into error and back into bondage, which is precisely what Paul writes to the Galatians about. (Galatians 5 specifically).

Fall back into bondage and still being saved? You believe in OSAS so then either I fall back to sin and is still saved, or I were like many Calvinists say: never saved to begin with.

 

[amariselle]

We must believe to be saved though, yes?
Is that obedience? Is that contributing to our own salvation?
Is believing earning our salvation?
Or since we can't contribute to our own salvation, is belief even necessary?

We “enter into rest” through faith in the Gospel. Some try to redefine faith as a work, it is not. Consider the tax collector who simply cried out to God, not even lifting his eyes, “God have mercy on me, sinner!” How is that work?

The foundation of our faith is repentance from “dead works” and faith toward Christ.

 

[amariselle]

You are often saying that GodsGrace is misrepresenting you, aren't you misrepresenting me?

I never said that you have to live perfect lives, which I think you are alluding to (?). Not once did I say we are to trust in our works for salvation.

My apologies, allow me to clarify. The reason I keep saying 100% perfect obedience, is because that is what God requires. This is precisely why only Jesus, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God can save us.

Fall back into bondage and still being saved? You believe in OSAS so then either I fall back to sin and is still saved, or I am like many Calvinists say: never saved to begin with.

Not knowing yours or anyone else’s heart, I will simply stick with Scripture. It is indeed “bondage” to believe that we must earn our own salvation in any way.

 

[112358]

We “enter into rest” through faith in the Gospel. Some try to redefine faith as a work, it is not. Consider the tax collector who simply cried out to God, not even lifting his eyes, “God have mercy on me, sinner!” How is that work?

The foundation of our faith is repentance from “dead works” and faith toward Christ.

Ok, since you don't want to answer the questions directly, try just this one:

When the tax collector cried out, was that something he did, or someone else?

 

[amariselle]

Ok, since you don't want to answer the questions directly, try just this one:

When the tax collector cried out, was that something he did, or someone else?

I get the point you’re trying to make, but true Biblical repentance (a change of mind) is not a “work” we do. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We can’t take credit for any part of our salvation.

 

[mark kennedy]

Then we must follow the thought through to its logical conclusion. If I, having believed and entered into His rest, 10 years later renounce my faith, curse God, pledge allegiance to Satan himself, and live out the rest of my earthly days serving the desires of the flesh, I will still go to heaven, correct?

It sounds like you guys are talking around Hebrews 3. The entire time Israel was in the wilderness they complained about the food, the water, the worshiped a golden calf and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt. When it came time to enter Canaan, they refused and when Joshua and Caleb did believe God they tried to kill them. The rest was Canaan in the original text but there is a promise in Hebrews 3 that is made by the Holy Spirit himself. They did not enter due to unbelief and these Jewish Christians were thinking about returning to Judiasm. The entire book explains the superiority of Christ over the angels, Moses, the High Priest, why? They were wanting to return to the legalism of Judism just like their ancestors wanted to return to Eqypt. The rest promised is the completed work of Christ, a righteousness that is by faith, unto all and upon all that believe

The Scriptures are crystal clear, you believe the gospel and you are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit of promise. Paul goes on for three chapters, 1 Cor. 12, 13, and 14 describing how to effectively minister to the church using the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Clearly God expects us to work on building up the body of Christ.

But it's not the yoke of the Law that Peter said neither we nor our fathers could bear. His yoke is easy and his burden is light and don't think for a second that there aren't those we still heap on burdens, grevious to be born, yet won't raise one finger to help.

 

[zoidar]

My apologies, allow me to clarify. The reason I keep saying 100% perfect obedience, is because that is what God requires. This is precisely why only Jesus, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God can save us.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Not knowing yours or anyone else’s heart, I will simply stick with Scripture. It is indeed “bondage” to believe that we must earn our own salvation in any way.

But it really doesn't matter in the end, does it? Since we can't lose our salvation, it doesn't really matter what we believe, as long as we at one time in our life got saved. I know I was saved June 2010. So I can do whatever I like now ... It just doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It sounds like you guys are talking around Hebrews 3. The entire time Israel was in the wilderness they complained about the food, the water, the worshiped a golden calf and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt. When it came time to enter Canaan, they refused and when Joshua and Caleb did believe God they tried to kill them. The rest was Canaan in the original text but there is a promise in Hebrews 3 that is made by the Holy Spirit himself. They did not enter due to unbelief and these Jewish Christians were thinking about returning to Judiasm. The entire book explains the superiority of Christ over the angels, Moses, the High Priest, why? They were wanting to return to the legalism of Judism just like their ancestors wanted to return to Eqypt. The rest promised is the completed work of Christ, a righteousness that is by faith, unto all and upon all that believe

The Scriptures are crystal clear, you believe the gospel and you are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit of promise. Paul goes on for three chapters, 1 Cor. 12, 14, and 14 describing how to effectively minister to the church using the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Clearly God expects us to work on building up the body of Christ.

But it's not the yoke of the Law that Peter said neither we nor our fathers could bear. His yoke is easy and his burden is light and don't think for a second that there aren't those we still heap on burdens, grevious to be born, yet won't raise one finger to help.

While returning back to the Law of Moses is wrong and it is a salvation issue (Ephesians 5:4). This does not mean obedience (under the NT) does not play a part in the salvation process. For Hebrews 3:12-13 says,

12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

Okay. Really simple here.

#1. Verse 14 says: We are to exhort one another daily so as not to be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
#2. What is this hardening do? Verse 12 says we are to take heed in not having evil heart of unbelief whereby we will depart from the living God.

So we can be deceived by sin ----> which can harden our heart ----> to have an evil heart of unbelief ----> whereby we can depart from the living God.

Conclusion:

The problem is sin and not just a lack of belief. Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). So if the Old Law does not apply anymore (Which I am in agreement with), this means there is some kind of law in existence within the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant).

 

[112358]

I get the point you’re trying to make, but true Biblical repentance (a change of mind) is not a “work” we do. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We can’t take credit for any part of our salvation.

Still no direct answer to a very simple question. I will attempt to rephrase once more, for a third time:

Who was the person you referenced who cried out, "God have mercy on me, a sinner!"?

 

[zoidar]

It sounds like you guys are talking around Hebrews 3. The entire time Israel was in the wilderness they complained about the food, the water, the worshiped a golden calf and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt. When it came time to enter Canaan, they refused and when Joshua and Caleb did believe God they tried to kill them. The rest was Canaan in the original text but there is a promise in Hebrews 3 that is made by the Holy Spirit himself. They did not enter due to unbelief and these Jewish Christians were thinking about returning to Judiasm. The entire book explains the superiority of Christ over the angels, Moses, the High Priest, why? They were wanting to return to the legalism of Judism just like their ancestors wanted to return to Eqypt. The rest promised is the completed work of Christ, a righteousness that is by faith, unto all and upon all that believe

The Scriptures are crystal clear, you believe the gospel and you are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit of promise. Paul goes on for three chapters, 1 Cor. 12, 14, and 14 describing how to effectively minister to the church using the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Clearly God expects us to work on building up the body of Christ.

But it's not the yoke of the Law that Peter said neither we nor our fathers could bear. His yoke is easy and his burden is light and don't think for a second that there aren't those we still heap on burdens, grevious to be born, yet won't raise one finger to help.

"They did not enter due to unbelief and these Jewish Christians were thinking about returning to Judiasm"

I have to correct you, they didn't enter due to disobedience.

"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?" (Heb 3:18)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I get the point you’re trying to make, but true Biblical repentance (a change of mind) is not a “work” we do. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We can’t take credit for any part of our salvation.

No. Repentance does not exclusively mean a "change of mind."
Repentance is "Asking God for forgiveness" according to the Bible.

Repentance is naturally followed by the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord:

Important Note: While "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), "Repentance" does not exclusively mean a “change of mind.”


Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."


#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"


#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?


#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).


#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).


#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."


#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.


#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.


#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).


#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?


#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.

 

[amariselle]

Thanks for clearing that up!

But it really doesn't matter in the end, does it? Since we can't lose our salvation, it doesn't really matter what we believe, as long as we at one time in our life got saved. I know I was saved June 2010. So I can do whatever I like now ... It just doesn't sound right to me.

Once one has understood that there is only one Way to be saved, through faith in the Gospel of our salvation in Christ, and they truly believe, trusting fully in Him alone for salvation, they are indeed saved, born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Why joy there is in so great a salvation, who wouldn’t want to serve our precious, wonderful Saviour?

Grace is not the “strength of sin”, the strength of sin is the Law. I guess it doesn’t make sense to me that the reaction of a saved, sealed, secure believer would be the attitude of, I can now just go out and do whatever I want. Those who have been forgiven much love much and we do indeed love because He first loved us. It is this love that compels us, not any legalistic rules or the fear of damnation, which is not even a reality for those who are in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[amariselle]

Still no direct answer to a very simple question. I will attempt to rephrase once more, for a third time:

Who was the person you referenced who cried out, "God have mercy on me, a sinner!"?

I said that in the first post, the tax collector....

 

[amariselle]

No. Repentance does not exclusively mean a "change of mind."
Repentance is "Asking God for forgiveness" according to the Bible.

Repentance is naturally followed by the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord:

Important Note: While "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), "Repentance" does not exclusively means a “change of mind.”


Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."


#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"


#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?


#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).


#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).


#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."


#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.


#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.


#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).


#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?


#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.

My apologies, as this is a very long post, I will need to answer it on the computer later tonight or tomorrow. I’m not ignoring it, but I am on my phone right now, and lengthy posts like this are quite difficult to respond to when I need to type it all out on my phone.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My apologies, as this is a very long post, I will need to answer it on the computer later tonight or tomorrow. I’m not ignoring it, but I am on my phone right now, and lengthy posts like this are quite difficult to respond to when I need to type it all out on my phone.

Understood. Please take your time in going over each of the words of the verses I posted so as to give a proper reply. I am patient and I can wait. I would prefer a well thought out reply (even if it took you a week to do it). In any event, may God's love shine upon you today (even though we disagree strongly on the topic of Soteriology).

 

[112358]

I said that in the first post, the tax collector....

Right. Then there was at least one thing that was incumbent upon the tax collector where his salvation was concerned, was there not? It was his belief. We have now established something that he contributed to his own salvation, have we not?

 

[amariselle]

Right. Then there was at least one thing that was incumbent upon the tax collector where his salvation was concerned, was there not? It was his belief. We have now established something that he contributed to his own salvation, have we not?

Belief is not a “work” and is not of the “flesh”.

 

[zoidar]

Once one has understood that there is only one Way to be saved, through faith in the Gospel of our salvation in Christ, and they truly believe, trusting fully in Him alone for salvation, they are indeed saved, born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Why joy there is in so great a salvation, who wouldn’t want to serve our precious, wonderful Saviour?

Grace is not the “strength of sin”, the strength of sin is the Law. I guess it doesn’t make sense to me that the reaction of a saved, sealed, secure believer would be the attitude of, I can now just go out and do whatever I want. Those who have been forgiven much love much and we do indeed love because He first loved us. It is this love that compels us, not any legalistic rules or the fear of damnation, which is not even a reality for those who are in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

You know when I got saved I lived in obedience, but I had no idea that I had to live in obedience, I just did out of love and out of fear. Later I started to live in disobedience. You may ask why, and I can tell you the story if you like, but it's rather long. After a year or two living in sin, I turned back to being obedient. Actually I said to a friend: "It's almost like I have been reborn a second time", and maybe I was?