Justification by Faith Defended!

[mark kennedy]

Right, meaning that faith alone won't cut the mustard.

It depends on the context, at conversion it's Grace by faith alone. Don't confuse that with sanctification and the works of righteousness that follow.

 

[ladodgers6]

Faith is both a gift and a choice, to follow God when He calls -or not. Works, such as those mentioned in Eph 2:10 or Matt 25:31-46, are the same: gifts of God that we can cooperate with in doing-or not. His justification of us involves more than one thing; its a whole work of His that we work out with Him. The Parable of the Talents sheds light on this. God does the justifying, but we decide whether or not we want to walk in His justice, the righteousness He's created us to walk in, and continue to do so, the ultimate definition or description and outworking of that justice being love, of Himself and our neighbor. And such love acts, by its nature, which is why Matt 25:31-46 can tell us that we'll be judged on such acts, and John of the Cross, a 16th century believer could correctly state, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love", and Paul could say in 1 Cor 13, "...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." And Augustine could say, "Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

I'm not home, so I'm replying from my cell. Thank you for your comments. I agree with some of what you wrote here. I'll reply to it in more detail when I get home.

Question for you? Do we need to live the Gospel?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Exactly. However this does not mean Christians are perfect.

Check out this thread here at CF.

No a person cannot have genuine faith and not continue in works or fall into habitual sin. Either one of the two can be true: Either this person did not have genuine faith or the person did have genuine faith and will experience discipline or perhaps even eternal loss. Now this is where some Christians start to argue. Some say genuine Christians will never do this while some people disagree.

I believe that if a genuine Christian does this, he is in serious danger. He is playing with eternal fire. If he continues in that way, he will be in SERIOUS trouble. A Christian cannot live without good works and the Holy Spirit will continue to convict him. He can ignore the Spirit or not. Some people argue a genuine Christian will not ignore the Spirit. However if he does ignore the Spirit, then yes the Bible has severe condemnation for that if he is unrepentant.

Now I am going to tell you my story. I fell into habitual sin for a few years. I was miserable these years. I sensed continuous conviction from the Spirit and I had blessings taken away from my life. Did I lose my salvation? It's possible. However I do know that I was NOT obeying scripture and I suffered loss in the result of that. Perhaps eternal loss or a lower standing in heaven. I also believe that God disciplined me and used what happened as a sanctification process. I have lost all desire for the world's way. When I was a new Christian, I still had lust for the world. So now I am better equipped to serve the Lord since he removed that desire from me. I believe that I was enabled to truly repent because of the Spirit and because of that I know I am completely 100% at the mercy of God. Now I am living the life of a Christian and experiencing a good restored life. Because of my experience, I have learned that the answer is not always simple.

My story is just what I have learned about God and how he can use even our failures to sanctify us and correct our behaviors/desires. I am convinced that I was disciplined and I was disciplined severely.

John says if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us (See 1 John 3:15).
Paul says that loving your neighbor (Which would obviously include loving your brother) is the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law (See Romans 13:8-10).

So if a believer sins and they do not repent, they are abiding in spiritual death. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, when the son came home to the father and repented, his father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again." His father said that his son was "lost" and is now "found." This is speaking in spiritual terms and the parable is dealing with repentance and salvation. For the previous two parables in Luke 15 is also dealing with repentance and salvation. James 5:19-20 talks about a faithful believer restoring a believer who has backslidden into sin back to the faith to the saving of their soul. In short, this faithful believer had helped this backslidden believer to repent of his sins to the Lord and dedicate His life back to the Lord (Thereby helping to cover a multitude of sins).

 

[fhansen]

It depends on the context, at conversion it's Grace by faith alone. Don't confuse that with sanctification and the works of righteousness that follow.

Our justice isn't a static, merely imputed quality or event; it's a state of being that God places in our minds and writes on our hearts. It's a continuous walk with Him, a partnership with Him, 'apart from whom we can do nothing.' It must act, it must express itself, and continue to in cooperation with Him. Man's very existence and being is nothing less than an act of willful cooperation with his Creator, unless we're in another state, the state of sin, or injustice. And we're to grow in justice rather than sit idle; justification and sanctification are not separable at the end of the day. With justification we're forgiven, washed, cleansed, made new creations-and from their expected to continue in and even grow in that justice, in that love to put it another way.

 

[fhansen]

I'm not home, so I'm replying from my cell. Thank you for your comments. I agree with some of what you wrote here. I'll reply to it in more detail when I get home.

Question for you? Do we need to live the Gospel?

Well, yes, to the extent that we're changed by it.

 

[ladodgers6]

Our justice isn't a static, merely imputed quality; it's a state of being that God places in our minds and writes on our hearts. It's a continuous walk with Him, a partnership with Him, 'apart from whom we can do nothing.' It must act, it must express itself, and continue to in cooperation with Him. Man's very existence and being is nothing less than an act of willful cooperation with his Creator, unless we're in another state, the state of sin, or injustice. And we're to grow in justice rather than sit idle; justification and sanctification are not separable at the end of the day. With justification we're forgiven, washed, cleansed, made new creations-and from their expected to continue in and even grow in that justice, in that love to put it another way.

Justification & Sanctification are not separate, but they are distinct from each. Like two links in a chain. They are two distinct links, but not separate. Can you explain Justification & Sanctification for us?

 

[redleghunter]

Rom 7 again is before Paul was saved.

Where do you get that from? Verse 21 shows the struggle of the inner man with the flesh.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Sure. Here's a sampling it will take time to get all the direct links:

These are the Eastern Fathers before Augustine.

Origen - “Everyone in the world falls prostrate under sin. And it is the Lord who sets up those who are cast down and who sustains all who are falling. In Adam all die, and thus the world [is] prostrate and requires to be set up again, so that [in] Christ all may be made to live.” (Homilies on Jeremias 8:1)

St. Athanasius - “[W]hen Adam had transgressed, his sin reached unto all men, so [that], when the Lord had become man and had overthrown the Serpent, [His] great strength…[could] extend through all men, so that each of us may say, ‘For we are not ignorant of his devices.’ ” (Against the Arians Book I Chapter 51)

St. Basil of Caesarea - “Little given, much gotten; by the donation of food the original sin is discharged. Just as Adam transmitted the sin by his wicked eating, we destroy that treacherous food when we cure the need and hunger.” (Eulogies & Sermons, Famine & Drought 8:7)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem - “[O]ur forefather Adam was cast out [of Paradise] for disobedience, and exchanged a Paradise bringing forth wondrous fruits of its own accord for the ground which bringeth forth thorns. What then? some one will say. We have been beguiled and are lost. Is there then no salvation left? We have fallen: Is it not possible to rise again? We have been blinded: May we not recover our sight? We have become crippled: Can we never walk upright? In a word, we are dead: May we not rise again? He that woke Lazarus who was four days dead and already stank, shall He not, O man, much more easily raise thee who art alive? He who shed His precious blood for us, shall Himself deliver us from sin.” (Catechetical Lectures 2:4-5)

St. Gregory Nazianzen - “[W]e were all without exception...partake[rs] of the same Adam, and were led astray by the serpent and slain by sin, and are saved by the heavenly Adam and brought back by the tree of shame to the tree of life from whence we had fallen.” (Against the Arians 33:9)

And: “Let the word of Christ persuade you of this, also, as He says that no one can enter into the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again of water and the Spirit. Through Him the stains of the first birth are cleansed away, through which we are conceived in iniquity and in sins have our mothers brought us forth.” (Oratio in natalem Christi.)

St. John Chrysostom - “When Adam sinned that great sin, and condemned all the human race in common, he paid the penalties in grief.” (Letter to Olympia) And: “It is clear that it is not the sin which comes from transgression of the law, but that sin which comes from the disobedience of Adam, which has defiled all.” (Homily on Romans 10)​

Note 14 Eastern bishops sat in council when the canons condemned Pelgius.

Have to dig up the Western fathers and owe you links.

Wonderful work brother!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

None of those verses refute that there is a very real and ongoing battle between the Spirit and the flesh, rather, those verses are sound instruction on how to live in the face of this battle.

I’ve read those verses many times. I love Paul’s inspired letters. They are more than clear that no one earns their own salvation.

No. You are not believing plainly what those verses say at face value. Verse 16 says very plainly that you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh if you walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16). Verse 24 says very plainly they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Gal 5:24), and Romans 13 says put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof (Rom 13:14).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

 

[ladodgers6]

Well, yes, to the extent that we're changed by it.

This thread is about how a sinner is justified before a Holy God? We will not agree with each other, history has demonstrated that. In Reformed Theology we believe sinners have a Free-Will. We also believe in the good works of the believer in the process of Sanctification. Yes we must love God and our neighbor. I already addressed these points.

We love God and our neighbor, because we want to do it. And not expecting anything in return for it. This is true love. Doing it for getting things in return is not love. It just puts your neighbor in debt to you.

But in your post to me earlier. You write a lot about what we have to do; a subjective approach to justification. And no mention of who Christ is and what He has done for the ungodly! (Romans 4:5).

This letter is from Michael Horton.

I wrote last month about the importance of keeping the distinction between getting the gospel out and living the gospel.

The simple truth is that when we confuse these two things, we turn from focusing on the message of Jesus Christ to ourselves as the messenger. And with that, every personal failure becomes a failure of the gospel.

Why am I bringing this back up now? Frankly, there is a lot out on the radio, podcasts, in books, and TV shows, that makes that very mistake. And the result is people are led down a mistaken path.

The only person who lived the Gospel is Christ Alone! Only Christ 'FINISHED IT' at the Cross.

I ask you to please explain Romans 4:4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Here it says that God justifies the ungodly! Not the Holy, the Righteous, or even godly. But the ungodly!

I am not avoiding your posts, I'm turning in early. I was injured at work. I had several operations. I'm not feeling well. So post you comments, and God willing, I'll reply tomorrow.

God Bless!

In Christ Our Redemption, Justification, and Sanctification 1 Cor. 1:30

 

[mark kennedy]

Our justice isn't a static, merely imputed quality or event; it's a state of being that God places in our minds and writes on our hearts. It's a continuous walk with Him, a partnership with Him, 'apart from whom we can do nothing.' It must act, it must express itself, and continue to in cooperation with Him. Man's very existence and being is nothing less than an act of willful cooperation with his Creator, unless we're in another state, the state of sin, or injustice. And we're to grow in justice rather than sit idle; justification and sanctification are not separable at the end of the day. With justification we're forgiven, washed, cleansed, made new creations-and from their expected to continue in and even grow in that justice, in that love to put it another way.

Nicely worded, it's always remarkable how believers do not disagree on these critical points of doctrine. At the point of conversion it by grace alone, the New Testament is crystal clear on that point. Sanctification follows and your riight, there is no real separation between justification and the sanctification that follows. I'm not shy about a debate, it's all very interesting but there is no serious question about justification, or sanctification for that matter. It is by grace through faith and believers do no deny that, they celebrate it. Yes works follow and God is glorified. We all join in the choirs. At the end of it, what we all want and need is the love of God expressed in our hearts and lives, that's enough. It's not disputed, justification is by grace through faith. We live in that hope and promise and by means of grace we learn sanctification and bear fruit, bless the Lord works follow. We have this promise, we have this hope and we look to Christ who richly provided us with all these things, bless the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where do you get that from? Verse 21 shows the struggle of the inner man with the flesh.

See my Post #661.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is thread is about how a sinner is justified before a Holy God? We will not agree with each other, history has demonstrated that. In Reformed Theology we believe sinners have a Free-Will. We also believe in the good works of the believer in the process of Sanctification. Yes we must love God and our neighbor. I already addressed these points.

We love God and our neighbor, because we want to do it. And not expecting anything in return for it. This is true love. Doing it for getting things in return is not love. It just puts your neighbor in debt to you.

But in your post to me earlier. You write a lot about what we have to do; a subjective approach to justification. And no mention of who Christ is and what He has done for the ungodly! (Romans 4:5).

This letter is from Michael Horton.

I wrote last month about the importance of keeping the distinction between getting the gospel out and living the gospel.

The simple truth is that when we confuse these two things, we turn from focusing on the message of Jesus Christ to ourselves as the messenger. And with that, every personal failure becomes a failure of the gospel.

Why am I bringing this back up now? Frankly, there is a lot out on the radio, podcasts, in books, and TV shows, that makes that very mistake. And the result is people are led down a mistaken path.

The only person who lived the Gospel is Christ Alone! Only Christ 'FINISHED IT' at the Cross.

I ask you to please explain Romans 4:4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Here it says that God justifies the ungodly! Not the Holy, the Righteous, or even godly. But the ungodly!

I am not avoiding your posts, I'm turning in early. I was injured at work. I had several operations. I'm not feeling well. So post you comments, and God willing, I'll reply tomorrow.

God Bless!

In Christ Our Redemption, Justification, and Sanctification 1 Cor. 1:30

Uh, Romans 4:5 is talking about how God justifies a person who used to live ungodly before he came to the faith.

3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."
(Titus 3:3-8).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"
(Hebrews 5:9).

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
(Titus 2:11-12).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

 

[discipler7]

GALATIANS.2: = 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

GALATIANS.5: = 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

ROMANS.8: = There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

ROMANS.1: = The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

ROMANS.5: = 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. ...

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

JOHN.3: = 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Jesus Christ and Paul have declared that a man is justified for salvation/eternal life by faith or believe in Him, and not by the works of the Law.
....... Nevertheless, the works of the Law is a Spiritual outflow of those who have put their faith in Christ, ie who have been born-again of the Spirit and live in the flesh by faith in Christ, not live by works or faith+works.

It is false to now say that Jesus Christ and Paul taught that a man is justified for salvation by faith+works, ie to teach that after salvation by faith in Christ, a man needs to be again justified for salvation by works .
....... It is like a dog returning to its vomit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

GALATIANS.2: = 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

GALATIANS.5: = 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

ROMANS.8: = There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

ROMANS.1: = The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

ROMANS.5: = 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. ...

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

JOHN.3: = 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Jesus Christ and Paul have declared that a man is justified for salvation/eternal life by faith or believe in Him, and not by the works of the Law.
....... Nevertheless, the works of the Law is a Spiritual outflow of those who have put their faith in Christ, ie who have been born-again of the Spirit and live in the flesh by faith in Christ.

It is false to now say that Jesus Christ and Paul taught that a man is justified for salvation by faith+works, ie to teach that after salvation by faith in Christ, a man needs to be again justified for salvation by works .
....... It is like tea dog returning to its vomit.

Please re-read Galatians 2:14 (Which is one of the verses you quoted). For the context of Galatians is clear that Paul is contrasting faith in Christ with the works of the Law of Moses (And not the laws given to us by Jesus and His followers). Galatians 5:2 says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Romans 3:1 says what advantage has the Jew? What profit is there in circumcision? In Acts of the Apostles 15:1, it says: "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."" At the Jerusalem counsel, the apostles said this in regards to that: "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

On the other hand, after we are saved by God's grace, obedience in regards to the Moral Law is tied to salvation. For in Galatians 5:19-21, Paul lists the kind of sins that would be the breaking of the Moral Law and how that by one doing such things, they would not inherit the Kingdom of God. In Romans 8:13, Paul says "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live."

Nowhere will you find Paul arguing against obedience to Jesus Christ as a part of salvation. Paul himself said, "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4). In James 4:6, James says that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Paul says to Titus, that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (See Titus 2:11-12). For Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (See Hebrews 5:9).

 

[HatGuy]

If you have been saved, then why are we told to continue in the grace of God (according to Acts of the Apostles 13:43)?

There are several ways to answer that and I'm sure many of them you would also agree with.

Given that grace is 'unmerited favour' but ALSO an empowering element for the Christian life, it would be easy to simply state that continuing in God's grace means that I continue in his empowering to be a witness, to live in my sanctification, to grow in grace, etc. That verse would not indicate that salvation can be lost - and bear in mind, I'm not an OSAS advocate myself.

I also wanted to add that to 'continue in the grace of God' is similar to saying 'don't continue in Law'. You are to live in grace, not Law - or, in the words of this discussion, a works-righteousness.

I see Romans 7 is coming up and I think it might be interesting to note a different take on this, as it's relevant here. It seems to me that Paul's objective in Romans 7 is to remind his readers what it's like to live under Law. If you read the chapter you've got to ask why he keeps mentioning the Law.

Paul is making the same point he does in Galatians here. Romans 6 is about being dead to sin, Romans 7 about what it's like to try solve the problem of sin with the Law (i.e. it does not work, it leads to you not doing the things you want to do) and Romans 8 about living in the Spirit instead. Living in the Spirit resolves the problem. In the Spirit, you go beyond the Law and live in and out perfect love.

 

[zoidar]

I believe I did you justice. You believe the grounds for justification is men’s works. It is why you cannot say Christ’s and His merits ALONE justify. Sola fide glorifies Christ in salvation

Like i said it's Christ alone that justifies, but we fall out of justification if we live in disobedience, and go back to living in sin. If you don't believe this is a ground built on Christ alone, fine!

From one perspective it's not Christ's merits alone that justifies you since you have to repent. If it were Christ's merits alone, we wouldn't have to repent. Repentance is the first "work" towards salvation. Obedience is the second "work" to win salvation.

You can say repentance is the obedience of heart, and obedience is being faithful in life.

 

[zoidar]

Exactly. However this does not mean Christians are perfect.



No a person cannot have genuine faith and not continue in works or fall into habitual sin. Either one of the two can be true: Either this person did not have genuine faith or the person did have genuine faith and will experience discipline or perhaps even eternal loss. Now this is where some Christians start to argue. Some say genuine Christians will never do this while some people disagree.

I believe that if a genuine Christian does this, he is in serious danger. He is playing with eternal fire. If he continues in that way, he will be in SERIOUS trouble. A Christian cannot live without good works and the Holy Spirit will continue to convict him. He can ignore the Spirit or not. Some people argue a genuine Christian will not ignore the Spirit. However if he does ignore the Spirit, then yes the Bible has severe condemnation for that if he is unrepentant.

Now I am going to tell you my story. I fell into habitual sin for a few years. I was miserable these years. I sensed continuous conviction from the Spirit and I had blessings taken away from my life. Did I lose my salvation? It's possible. However I do know that I was NOT obeying scripture and I suffered loss in the result of that. Perhaps eternal loss or a lower standing in heaven. I also believe that God disciplined me and used what happened as a sanctification process. I have lost all desire for the world's way. When I was a new Christian, I still had lust for the world. So now I am better equipped to serve the Lord since he removed that desire from me. I believe that I was enabled to truly repent because of the Spirit and because of that I know I am completely 100% at the mercy of God. Now I am living the life of a Christian and experiencing a good restored life. Because of my experience, I have learned that the answer is not always simple.

My story is just what I have learned about God and how he can use even our failures to sanctify us and correct our behaviors/desires. I am convinced that I was disciplined and I was disciplined severely.

Thanks for sharing your story brother! I went though just about the same thing.

 

[zoidar]

I am aware that many keep saying we don’t need to be perfect, but these people forget that when it comes to salvation, God will not accept any sacrifice that is anything short of 100% sinless, spotless and without blemish.

Yes, that is why we pray for forgiveness when we fail.

I like to ask you a question. Do you think to live in 100% obedience to God, means that you have to live all your time on the streets sharing the gospel? Do you believe living 100% for God means giving all your belongings to the poor? I will tell you it's not so. You don't need to be on the street all your time to live in 100% obedience, you don't need to give all you have to the poor. That's not what being 100% obedient to God means. Being 100% obedient to God, goes through our circumcised heart, the WILL to live 100% in obedience and the WILL to be 100% sinless and spotless. When there is this WILL, then there are also works of obedience.

I think the problem with holding on to the belief that we don't have to be 100% obedient is that we fail to live in obedience, because we don't believe it's possible nor necessary.

 

[zoidar]

I am aware that many keep saying we don’t need to be perfect, but these people forget that when it comes to salvation, God will not accept any sacrifice that is anything short of 100% sinless, spotless and without blemish.

We are not 100% sinless, that is why we need to be under Christ's rule, have him as Lord. And of course to have him as Lord we have to do what he says, or how can we otherwise say he is our Lord?

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

One more thing, do you know that God rejoices over us when we are obedient, and do good works?