Justification and Sanctification ?

timothyu · Mar 15, 2023

zoidar said:
Not to be picky, but I don't think the NT mentions trusting on Christ or the atoning work of Christ to be saved or havecsaving faith.

However if you receive the Holy Spirit, you will surely both trust and have faith in Christ and the atoning work of Christ.

Is that like saying the work Jesus did brought about the Kingdom and opened the door previously shut for all of mankind. However we must still individually understand our backwards ways and instead choose by choice the Kingdom over the ways and will of man thus repenting of our self serving ways?

zoidar · Mar 15, 2023

timothyu said:
Is that like saying the work Jesus did brought about the Kingdom and opened the door previously shut for all of mankind. However we must still individually understand our backwards ways and instead choose by choice the Kingdom over the ways and will of man thus repenting of our self serving ways?

I just meant the NT doesn't say "trust in the atonement" or even "trust in Christ for your salvation" but we often say things like that (I'm not saying that is wrong). The Bible mentions repentance and faith. To me the fruit of repentance is faith, love and trust.

timothyu · Mar 15, 2023

zoidar said:
To me the fruit of repentance is faith, love and trust.

Yes, that His way are better than ours and they will one day eliminate our ability to rebel as we choose His dominion. Sounds weird as we usually don't do that with our leaders not wanting a dictatorship, but that is the difference between a world thinking of self vs a world thinking of others

AbbaLove · Mar 17, 2023

According to Paul the order of this thread Title should have read Sanctification and Justification ...

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. ... 1 Corinthians 6:11

Translationss of 1 Thessalonians 4:4 are split between sanctification and holiness ...

that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, (ESV)

that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, (YLT)

that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, (NIV)

That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; (KJV)

Is it possible for a Believer be justified if they are not first sanctified ?

IoanC · Mar 17, 2023

There are levels of perfection. The first step is repentance, making the decision to follow God and stop sinning. The second level is actually fighting the sin that seems to be within us and govern us. 3: after a while, sin falls by itself, or at least looks bad enough so that we dislike it. 4: At this point, we can start maturing and seeking to become holy and perfect as God Himself is.

These levels worked for me in the beginning. It's not as if I am representing some official work. So, you have to complete certain aspects found in the Bible, so that others become available.

timothyu · Mar 17, 2023

Our natural instincts cause us problems as that is our flesh will over God's. But it is self justification on calling good evil and evil good that causes the most problems. We of course do so by self interest. We can control it but it must be our desire to do so first (repent)

AbbaLove · Mar 17, 2023

Clare73 said:
"Go and sin no more" during Jesus' lifetime meant perfect obedience to the law, which no one could possibly do

Jesus wouldn't have said, "Go and sin no more" and "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen" if He thought stop sinning wasn't possible. Same goes with Pau's words to the Corinthian church to "stop sinning". The deceiver (satan) wants Christians to believe it's impossible to stop sinning.

Your premise is faulty if you actually believe the words of Jesus and Paul were not Truthful then or are not Truthful for today's Christians.

That's what the 'deceiver / trickster' (satan) would want Christians to believe then and now. You should uderstand that John is by no means saying it is impossible to 'stop sinning'. Those that think so have been fooled by the greatest of deceivers (satan) who is able to deceive even some of today's theologians just as were many of the Jewish scribes. Some of todays' theologians with their doctorate degrees and silver tongue. Appealing words that tickle the ears of the seeker-sensitive as well as nominal Christians.

Is it impossible for even a highly educated theologian to be lukewarm? Such is the condition of some theologians and christian that believe the 9 supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased to operare among born again Christians after the 1st Century with the death of the last of the Apostles.

Clare73 said:
The NT reveals that the born again are not sinless (1 Jn 1:8-10).

Do you actually believe that the Apostle John as a sanctified, holy vessel was unable to stop sinning. Isn't that what the deceiver (satan) would want today's Christians to believe by misinterpreting John's Words as meaning it's impossible to stop sinning.

Those that misinterpret this verse do so to justify their belief it's not possible for a "sanctified - holy" Christian to stop sinning.
It's as if those that think so are as much as saying that the Words of Jesus and Paul (and James 4:7) are not Truthful. John is by no means implying that it is impossible to 'stop sinning'. Sanctification (Holiness) should not be interpreted that it's impossible to stop sinning.

Do you also think the following words of Jesus are an impossibility whether one is wealthy, middle class, or poor ? ...

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. (Mark 10:21)

On hearing this, Jesus told him, "You still lack one thing: Sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me." (Luke 18:22)

Is it also possible that the majority of today's so-called 'born again' Christians find the following words of Jesus next to impossible. If so then these same Christians may also believe that to stop sinning is next to impossible, if not impossible...

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto Him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but He:

33 And to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, He said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask Him any question. (Mark 12: 30-34)

Has post modern Christianity so diluted the Word Of God as to become lukewarm? If so due in no small measure to theologians that suffer from the same malady of many of the educated scribes during Jesus' life of earth. What good came from Paul's advance education under Gamaliel, a teacher held in great esteem by all Jews. He was so blind as to persecute Followers of Messiah Jesus like no other.

Is it not possible that the vast majority of today's Christians have been so deceived that they actually believe it's impossible to stop sinning?

setst777 · Mar 18, 2023

zoidar said:
Not to be picky, but I don't think the NT mentions trusting on Christ or the atoning work of Christ to be saved or have saving faith.

However if you receive the Holy Spirit, you will surely both trust and have faith in Christ and the atoning work of Christ.

Just to be clear, we are to believe in Lord Jesus first, so that we may receive the Holy Spirit.

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:5 (NIV) 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

And the faith by which the Spirt indwells us is defined as loving Lord Jesus, obeying his commands.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are his witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

John 14:15-17 (Young’s Literal Translation)15 `If you love me, keep my commands, 16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you -- to the age; 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

setst777 · Mar 18, 2023

AbbaLove said:
According to Paul the order of this thread Title should have read Sanctification and Justification ...

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. ... 1 Corinthians 6:11

Translationss of 1 Thessalonians 4:4 are split between sanctification and holiness ...

that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, (ESV)
that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, (YLT)
that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, (NIV)
That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; (KJV)

Is it possible for a Believer be justified if they are not first sanctified ?

God justifies and sanctifies to himself those who first, by faith, sanctify themselves to God by renouncing worldly passions, and now commit to follow Lord Jesus into a life of righteousness and love.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you [the believer] abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

1 John 1:5-9 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, {{{as he is in the light}}}, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And faith always includes repentance.

Acts 20:18 “You yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, how I was with you all the time, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears, and with trials which happened to me by the plots of the Jews; 20 how I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:19 (WEB) However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me isn’t worthy of me.

setst777 · Mar 18, 2023

AbbaLove said:
Jesus wouldn't have said, "Go and sin no more" and "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen" if He thought stop sinning wasn't possible. Same goes with Pau's words to the Corinthian church to "stop sinning". The deceiver (satan) wants Christians to believe it's impossible to stop sinning.

Your premise is faulty if you actually believe the words of Jesus and Paul were not Truthful then or are not Truthful for today's Christians.

That's what the 'deceiver / trickster' (satan) would want Christians to believe then and now. You should uderstand that John is by no means saying it is impossible to 'stop sinning'. Those that think so have been fooled by the greatest of deceivers (satan) who is able to deceive even some of today's theologians just as were many of the Jewish scribes. Some of todays' theologians with their doctorate degrees and silver tongue. Appealing words that tickle the ears of the seeker-sensitive as well as nominal Christians.

Is it impossible for even a highly educated theologian to be lukewarm? Such is the condition of some theologians and christian that believe the 9 supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased to operare among born again Christians after the 1st Century with the death of the last of the Apostles.

Do you actually believe that the Apostle John as a sanctified, holy vessel was unable to stop sinning. Isn't that what the deceiver (satan) would want today's Christians to believe by misinterpreting John's Words as meaning it's impossible to stop sinning.

Those that misinterpret this verse do so to justify their belief it's not possible for a "sanctified - holy" Christian to stop sinning.
It's as if those that think so are as much as saying that the Words of Jesus and Paul (and James 4:7) are not Truthful. John is by no means implying that it is impossible to 'stop sinning'. Sanctification (Holiness) should not be interpreted that it's impossible to stop sinning.

Do you also think the following words of Jesus are an impossibility whether one is wealthy, middle class, or poor ? ...

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. (Mark 10:21)
On hearing this, Jesus told him, "You still lack one thing: Sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me." (Luke 18:22)

Is it also possible that the majority of today's so-called 'born again' Christians find the following words of Jesus next to impossible. If so then these same Christians may also believe that to stop sinning is next to impossible, if not impossible...

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto Him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but He:
33 And to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, He said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask Him any question. (Mark 12: 30-34)

Has post modern Christianity so diluted the Word Of God as to become lukewarm? If so due in no small measure to theologians that suffer from the same malady of many of the educated scribes during Jesus' life of earth. What good came from Paul's advance education under Gamaliel, a teacher held in great esteem by all Jews. He was so blind as to persecute Followers of Messiah Jesus like no other.

Is it not possible that the vast majority of today's Christians have been so deceived that they actually believe it's impossible to stop sinning?

The authentic Faith authored by Lord Jesus is evidenced by following Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love. Not that we earn salvation by our faith and righteousness, but that this is the faith God chooses to give to the Son, and by which we are cleansed from any sins we do commit n weakness - for all of us will sin in thought, word, and deed. However, no Christian continues to live in any sin.

1 John 2:1-6 (WEB) 2 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked

zoidar · Mar 18, 2023

setst777 said:
Just to be clear, we are to believe in Lord Jesus first, so that we may receive the Holy Spirit.

I think we believe and repent first and then the Holy Spirit is given us, turning our belief into faith.

setst777 · Mar 18, 2023

zoidar said:
I think we believe and repent first and then the Holy Spirit is given us, turning our belief into faith.

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Can you show me where the Scriptures make a doctrinal differentiation in the meanings of "faith" or "believe" in the Scriptures. The way I understand it is that to have faith in Lord Jesus is to believe in Lord Jesus. Different tenses. That is all I see in the Scriptures.

zoidar · Mar 18, 2023

setst777 said:
Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Can you show me where the Scriptures make a doctrinal differentiation in the meanings of "faith" or "believe" in the Scriptures. The way I understand it is that to have faith in Lord Jesus is to believe in Lord Jesus. Different tenses. That is all I see in the Scriptures.

I use believe and faith differently, because you can believe without having received the Holy Spirit. But if you have a saving belief (which I call faith) you sure have received the Holy Spirit.

James make the distinction between dead faith and saving faith. That's another way to put it. Dead faith has not the Holy Spirit within, saving faith has.

setst777 · Mar 18, 2023

zoidar said:
I use believe and faith differently, because you can believe without having received the Holy Spirit. But if you have a saving belief (which I call faith) you sure have received the Holy Spirit.

James make the distinction between dead faith and saving faith. That's another way to put it. Dead faith has not the Holy Spirit within, saving faith has.

Are you saying that all those who believe in Lord Jesus do not all have the Holy Spirit?

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

setst777 · Mar 18, 2023

zoidar said:
I use believe and faith differently, because you can believe without having received the Holy Spirit. But if you have a saving belief (which I call faith) you sure have received the Holy Spirit.

James make the distinction between dead faith and saving faith. That's another way to put it. Dead faith has not the Holy Spirit within, saving faith has.

I agree that not all those who say they believe in Lord Jesus really believe in him, for not everyone who says they believe have actually repented, and now commit to follow Lord Jesus. However, that has nothing to do with the meanings of "faith" and "believe" as if the two words were doctrinally different. Do you agree?

zoidar · Mar 18, 2023

setst777 said:
I agree that not all those who say they believe in Lord Jesus really believe in him, for not everyone who says they believe have actually repented, and now commit to follow Lord Jesus. However, that has nothing to do with the meanings of "faith" and "believe" as if the two words were doctrinally different. Do you agree?

I think I do. I don't think that Scripture uses different words. However we can see from the context how it is used in each instance. Sometimes it's used for believing in a fact like Matt 9:29. Sometimes it's used for saying how a person is saved Rom 3:28.

When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to Him, “Yes, Lord.” Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”
— Matthew 9:28-29

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:28

zoidar · Mar 18, 2023

setst777 said:
Are you saying that all those who believe in Lord Jesus do not all have the Holy Spirit?

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

I think it is possible you can believe that Jesus died and was resurrected for you without having received the Holy Spirit. If there is no repentance, it's hard for me to see that belief being salvific.

setst777 · Mar 18, 2023

zoidar said:
I think I do. I don't think that Scripture uses different words. However we can see from the context how it is used in each instance. Sometimes it's used for believing in a fact like Matt 9:29. Sometimes it's used for saying a person is saved Rom 3:28.

When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to Him, “Yes, Lord.” Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”
— Matthew 9:28-29

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:28

I thought we were discussing "faith" and "believe" in regards to our relationship with Lord Jesus.

For instance, just as you used the word "believe" in a different context then believing in Lord Jesus, so too, I can use the word "faith" in the same way:

1 Corinthians 13:2 (WEB) 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don’t have love, I am nothing.

I can show you that not all "faith" is the same. Some people profess faith in Christ have a dead faith. Did the Spirit give them this dead faith, if faith truly means as you say, a faith that is from the Spirit?

James 2:14 (WEB) What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him?

James 2:17 (WEB) Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself.

James 2:25 (WEB) or as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

James also uses the words "faith" and "believe" interchangeably depending on the tense used. For instance, in comparing a dead faith with a living faith, James shows how even demons believe and shudder. Yet, James was discussing "faith."

Neither tells me the difference, doctrinally, between "believe" and "faith" in the context of our relationship with Lord Jesus to be saved.

Now, I have shown you that we receive the Spirit by {{believing}} in Lord Jesus, or by {{faith}} in Lord Jesus. Either is equally true.

Can you show me the difference between receiving the Spirit by faith in Lord Jesus from those who receive the Spirit by believing in Lord Jesus?

zoidar · Mar 18, 2023

setst777 said:
Can you show me the difference between receiving the Spirit by faith in Lord Jesus from those who receive the Spirit by believing in Lord Jesus?

Sounds like you are describing the same thing. Faith to me involves a change of heart, where belief doesn't have to. As for how we use English.

Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
— Mark 1:14-15

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
— Ephesians 2:8

In Mark 1:15, believe and repent are separated. We need to two things, believe the fact and repent.

In Ephesians 2 the word faith includes repentance, without it even being mentioned. We are saved through belief and repentance, faith.

Chaleb · Mar 18, 2023

setst777 said:
I agree that not all those who say they believe in Lord Jesus really believe in him, for not everyone who says they believe have actually repented, and now commit to follow Lord Jesus. However, that has nothing to do with the meanings of "faith" and "believe" as if the two words were doctrinally different. Do you agree?

Its possible to intellectually understand that Jesus died on the Cross and rose again.

Yet, that is not the same as "faith comes by hearing" that you are a sinner and Christ is your Savior., even tho the message is similar.

Its the application of the understanding, that marks the difference, as to know it.... is not actually to believe that its for you personally. And once you have this understanding then you have come to "the knowledge of the Truth", but have not yet gone into Faith.

Taking that step from "receiving the knowledge of the Truth" (The Gospel) that Jesus died for your sin, into "yes, Jesus i know you died for me and i receive you now as my SAVIOR", is repenting from unbelief to Faith, and God sees this faith in your heart, and instantly accepts it as "faith is counted as righteousness, and you become this...>"Justification by Faith". without the law or works.

At that point, The blood atonement deals with your sin as "God had made Jesus to become sin for us", and "Jesus is the one time eternal sacrifice for all sin"...

Then, At THAT point, you are now "made righteous" and God gives you the New Birth., and you are born again and become "a new creation" "in Christ".

Welcome to Salvation.

Its a "GIFT".

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