Justification and Sanctification ?

Clare73 · May 18, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Sorry. That makes no sense. Being born again is the regeneration. Converted sounds like a regeneration..

Previously addressed. . .

"Sounds like" is irrelevant. Definitions prevail.

Convert = to turn from one course to another.
Regenerate = impartation of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

The sovereign (Jn 3:6-8) new birth precedes the turning (converting).

Fallen unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit cannot turn to God on his own (1 Co 2:14, Ro 8:7-8, Jn 3:3-5).
He must be enabled, by the sovereign new birth (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8), upon which he then turns (converts).

Just look at Acts 28:27. It says,
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

In context, this refers to God's judgment on them of a hardened heart so they cannot be converted.
God judges sin with sin (Ro 2:22-24). . .the hardened heart is judged with further hardening (see Pharaoh).

It says their heart has waxed gross and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they close then they are converted.
Yet, you believe there is a regeneration must take place so one can see and hear, and this takes place before being born again.
Yet, Acts 28:27 describes how one has dull hearing, and their eyes are called and they are converted.
This conversion is when a person is born again.
To say so otherwise makes no sense. Being converted is the regeneration.

Do you not understand that regeneration = born again = seeing and hearing = conversion?

The good news is not being saved in some imaginary regeneration that proceeds faith.
The good news is the gospel.
1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Romans 10:15
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Romans 10:16-17
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that we believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day according to the Scriptures for our salvation.

This is the gospel that saves.
It’s not Election/Regeneration that saves.

It is faith in the person and work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ that saves (Eph 2:8-9),
it is regeneration that enables faith (Jn 3:3-8) and
it is the gospel which presents these truths.

BBAS 64 · May 18, 2023

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed. . .

"Sounds like" is irrelevant. Definitions prevail.

Convert = to turn from one course to another.
Regenerate = impartation of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

The sovereign (Jn 3:6-8) new birth precedes the turning (converting).

Fallen unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit cannot turn to God on his own (1 Co 2:14, Ro 8:7-8, Jn 3:3-5).
He must be enabled, by the sovereign new birth (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8), upon which he then turns (converts).

This refers to God's judgment on them of a hardened heart so they cannot be converted.

Do you not understand that regeneration = born again = seeing and hearing = conversion?

It is faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ that saves (Eph 2:8-9), and
it is regeneration that enables faith.

Good Day, Clare

From a Theological stand point they are exactly the same:

In Him,

Bill

Clare73 · May 18, 2023

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Clare

From a Theological stand point they are exactly the same:

View attachment 331201

View attachment 331202

In Him,

Bill

Thanks.

In the logical order of their effects, it is rebirth ---> faith ---> salvation.

In their occurence, they probably can't be distinguished.

BBAS 64 · May 18, 2023

setst777 said:
How does Lord Jesus, who is our Mediator, guarantee that the believer will never fall away and be lost?

The Spirit of Christ, whom believers receive as the guarantee of eternal life will only give eternal life to the one who remains in the faith manifested by sowing to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7-9 (EWEB) Writing to the Church in Galatia 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

How does your understanding of Lord Jesus intercessor the saints harmonize with the warning to the Church about believers falling away in the Book of Hebrews harmonize with your understanding of intercession in that same book?

Hebrews 12:25 (WEB) See that you don’t refuse him who speaks. For if they didn’t escape when they refused him who warned on the earth, how much more will we not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (EWEB) Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 5:9 (EWEB) Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation

Hebrews 6:11-12 (EWEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance {{inherited the promises}}.

Is your understanding in harmony with what Lord Jesus, our intercessor, taught the Church?

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB) “I know your works; in that, you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Luke 21:34-36 (EWEB) 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Just read the context. Read the Book of Hebrews from beginning to end (a short read) as you would read any other book (in context). Would you agree that the Corinthian Church is mainly a Gentile Church? Yet, Paul teaches the very same thing as in Hebrews.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 (EWEB) Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were {{our examples}}, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” [Exodus 32:6] 8 Let us not commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell. 9 Let us not test Christ, as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents. 10 Do not grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

Notice, all of this teaching about the Melchizedek are for those who draw near to God through him. Not every Christian will continue to draw near to God by faith in Lord Jesus and will be lost. That is true for the Jew and the Gentile, because God does not show favoritism or partiality.

Romans 11:21-22 (EWEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those {{{who fell}}}, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

True, because those who are in the faith can fall away and be lost, just as the Scriptures keep warning us about from Matthew to Revelation. For instance:

Matthew 5:13; Luke 14:33-35; Luke 13:23-29; Matthew 10:21-22; Matthew 24:11-13; Matthew 24:42-44; Luke 12:34-40; Matthew 24:45- 51; Matthew 25:14-30; Mark 13:32-37; Luke 21:19; Luke 21:34-36; John 15:1-6; Romans 11:20-22; John 15:8-10; Acts 14:21-22; Acts 20:18-21; Acts 20:28-31; Romans 6:1-24; Romans 8:3-4; Romans 8:12-14; Romans 8:16-17; Romans 12:1-2; Romans 15:1-2; 1 Corinthians 9:23-27; 1 Corinthians 10:1-12; 2 Corinthians 2:9; 2 Corinthians 11:2-4; 2 Corinthians 12:19-22; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 4:9-11; Galatians 5:1-4; Galatians 6:7-9; Ephesians 4:17-32; Ephesians 5:3-9; 1 Thessalonians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; Philippians 3:12-14; Colossians 1:21-23; Colossians 2:8; Colossians 3:1-17; 1 Timothy 1:18-19; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 6:10-12; 1 Timothy 6:17-19; 1 Timothy 6:20-21; 2 Timothy 2:11-12; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Hebrews 3:4-6; Hebrews 3:12-15; Hebrews 4:1; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 6:11-12; Hebrews 7:24-25; Hebrews 10:24-31; Hebrews 10:35-36; Hebrews 12:14-17; Hebrews 12:25; 1 Peter 1:6-7; 1 Peter 1:13-19; 2 Peter 1:8-11; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Peter 2:17-21; 2 Peter 3:16-18; James 1:12-16; 1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 2:24-26; 2 John 7-11; Jude 1:21; Revelation 2:10-11; Revelation 3:1-5; Revelation 3:11-12; Revelation 3:15-21; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 16:15; Revelation 21:6-8; Revelation 22:12-15.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your Sanctification, that YOU abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that EACH ONE OF YOU know how to control his own body in Sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned YOU and testified. 7 For God called US not for uncleanness, but in Sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

1 Thessalonians 3:5 (EWEB) 5 For this cause I also, when I couldn’t stand it any longer, sent that I might know your faith, for fear that by any means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor would have been in vain.

1 Timothy 1:18-19 (WEB) 18 I commit this instruction to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which were given to you before, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning the faith”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 4:16 (EWEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear (listen) you.

1 Timothy 6:10-12 (WEB) 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB) 18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (WEB) 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 (WEB) 16 But shun empty chatter, for it will go further in ungodliness, 17 and those words will consume like gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus: 18 men who have erred concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past, and overthrowing the faith of some.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 (WEB) 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (WEB) 3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn away to fables.

2 Timothy 4:9-10 (WEB) 9 Be diligent to come to me soon, 10 for Demas left me, having loved this present world, and went to Thessalonica

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure; for IF you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Good Day,
Christ as mediator:

Mediator:

Thayer Definition:

1) one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant

2) a medium of communication, arbitrator

DA Carson covers some of the OT text as they relate to Melchizedek (Hebrews 7 ), you should get His book to better understand OT usage in the NT.

https://www.uu.edu/audio/ryancenter/wordwithintheword-0409/042509-DACarson-Plenary3.mp3

Because of His Meditation we have peace, and the covenant is ratified by him. In his role as mediator and priest he does not fail all he meditates for have peace and are restored to God. Saved to the uttermost, unless if you contend that Jesus is unable to serve as an effective mediator.

Jesus says it best, unless you think that Jesus fails to fulfill the will of His Father. In His role as Mediator he can guarantee to lose that which the Father has given to him.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

In Him,

Bill

ladodgers6 · May 18, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
I have ZERO interest in any Calvinist teachings. Please take note that I not only find Calvinism to be a gross misinterpretation of Scripture big time, but I also find Calvinism to be immoral on three levels.

No comment here.

Bible Highlighter said:
But Arminians are wrong for calling it Preveneint Grace. Grace is dealing with salvation according to the Scriptures I shown to you.

Well, I disagree with you, because both Arminianism and Calvinism do have some common ground, like Total Depravity, Trinity, Prevenient Grace is needed prior to anything, though we differ on the efficacy of this Grace. Prevenient means preceding in order, so the Arminian got the that right, because they without it no one would be saved, because of Total Depravity. But if this Prevenient Grace is not effectual, then nobody would be saved, that's why I left the Arminian camp.

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus said repent or perish. He did not say, wait till you are regenerated so you are able to repent.

Okay, why would anyone repent, if they don't understand? Just mindless zombies? Pitting Scripture against is not the answer BH. Scriptures are in harmony and unity. When God calls us out of the darkness into his marvelous light through the proclamation of the Gospel is this our doing or his? Who is the reconciling the world to himself? The only way we can repent and turn to Christ is by God giving us a new mind to understand, and a new heart to believe and trust in him.

I could never understand why it's so heard for people to give God all the praise and glory he deserves. To lift man up and place any credit to his account, is anti-scripture indeed. Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees who thought they were the most holy men on earth, Jesus called them snakes and vipers; the blind leading the blind; and that they are full of dead men bones; white washed tombs. The Pharisee prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ This is looking inward being fooled that there gold to be found to offer God; buffing yourself up, look at me and what i have done, honor me, exalt me, I say!

13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

So, again I ask you, why does the Pharisee not understand he cannot boast of himself before God, while Tax collector does understand that before God nobody can boast and exalt themselves? He understood the holiness and righteousness of God's character, and the demands of God that he was a sinner before him. And knew the only place before God, was in his mercy! And he went home justified!

Bible Highlighter said:
The jailor asked what he must do to be saved. If Calvinism was true, Paul and Silas would have said, “Do nothing! God will regenerate you if you are one of the Elect and then you will know what to do.” Calvinism does not align with Scripture.

Again why would anyone repent without hearing the proclamation of the Gospel? Why would anyone be in need of a Savior, if Law and Gospel was not preached to them?

Bible Highlighter said:
It’s an outside belief that one has to force upon the Bible that does not fit all that well. It’s like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. One has to do backflip twists with Scripture at every turn if one believes in Calvinism. Just reading the story about how God was trying to tell Cain to do good, or reading Jonah 3:6-10 refutes Calvinism. Calvinism is not in the Bible!

You know people often accuse Calvinism of dragging people against their wills into heaven, which I always thought was the weakest argument ever, but anyways. Law and Gospel must be preached to everyone, this is the universal call, that God commands his disciples to do. But only his sheep will hear him, and believe, these are the ones whom the Father gave to the son to save.

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Yeah, I will admit, this was a hard pill for me to swallow, when I was an Arminian. But for me, at first I wanted to prove Calvinism wrong (I'm with Calvin, I prefer the Doctrines of Grace) at all costs. But then it dawned on me, it's the truth I am after, not winning an argument at any cost. I prayed and asked God for understanding, and help me seek the truth. And after reading and hearing the Law & Gospel for the first time, finally, I understood, and believed and trust in God who justifies the ungodly like me! Just sharing...

Know what you believe and why you believe it.

Bible Highlighter · May 18, 2023

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed. . .

"Sounds like" is irrelevant. Definitions prevail.

Convert = to turn from one course to another.
Regenerate = impartation of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

The sovereign (Jn 3:6-8) new birth precedes the turning (converting).

Fallen unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit cannot turn to God on his own (1 Co 2:14, Ro 8:7-8, Jn 3:3-5).
He must be enabled, by the sovereign new birth (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8), upon which he then turns (converts).

In context, this refers to God's judgment on them of a hardened heart so they cannot be converted.
God judges sin with sin (Ro 2:22-24). . .the hardened heart is judged with further hardening (see Pharaoh).

Do you not understand that regeneration = born again = seeing and hearing = conversion?

It is faith in the person and work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ that saves (Eph 2:8-9),
it is regeneration that enables faith (Jn 3:3-8) and
it is the gospel which presents these truths.

Born again = Entering the Kingdom of God:

John 3:5

“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5).

So being born again = saved or being able to enter the Kingdom of God.

To be converted = sins blotted out (Acts 3:19) forgiveness of sin (Mark 4:12):

Acts 3:19

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”

Mark 4:12

“That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”

Peter says, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted” Converted in this context means to be changed (transformed).

Webster's 1828 Dictionary

CONVERTED, participle passive Turned or changed from one substance or state to another; turned form one religion or sect to another; changed from a state of sin to a state of holiness; applied to a particular use; appropriated.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary

CONVERT, verb intransitive To turn or be changed; to undergo a change.

Being converted (changed) in context here is dealing with salvation because one’s sins are being blotted out.

Regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost = saved (Which is shed abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior - whereby we are justified by His grace) (Titus 3:5):

Being justified by grace is the context; Also see Romans 3:24 (justified freely by his grace) and then compare that with Romans 1:16 which talks about the gospel being the power of God UNTO salvation to everyone who believes).

Titus 3:3-7

3 “For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Again, see “justified by his grace” and compare that with Romans 3:24, and then Romans 1:16.

We can see that this regeneration is dealing with being born again after we have faith in the gospel.

You say that being born again happens before we have faith.

This is false according to Scripture.

Peter makes it clear that we are born again by the Word of God (the Communicated Word - which is either the spoken Word of God during the early church days with the apostles, or the Scriptures we have today).

1 Peter 1:23-25

23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

1 Peter 2:2

“As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:”

While ”converted” can refer to being “born again,“ there is a kind of “be converted” that we must do:

Matthew 18:3 talks about this and it deals with salvation.

Matthew 18:3 - Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

The whole idea here is something that YOU MUST DO and not something God forces upon you. Lord Jesus is telling us to be humble like little children here so as to enter the Kingdom. God is not force electing or regenerating us to be humble. We have to choose to be humble here.

But I contend that Acts 28:27 has a different meaning when it mentions the word “converted.” I would stress that it means to be born again after we have placed faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Acts 28:27 talks about how when they are converted He shall heal them.

So you are saying this is not referring to being born again?

You propose that just being “converted” as always being defined as = Turn to God.

I would say that this is false because Acts 28:27 ties in the word converted with being healed. Are you saying you are not healed by being “born again” which you believe is before —- > faith and before —— > turning to God (converted)?

Also, to be circumcised in heart by God is to be born again in the Old Testament. See this thread here for the verses.

This is important to understand because Stephen said to the Jews that they were uncircumcised in heart (not born again) and yet they always do RESIST the Holy Ghost (See: Acts 7:51). That means that the problem lies upon them for resisting God and the problem has nothing to do with God not electing them to salvation (As Calvinists falsely teach).

We cannot be healed unless our heart is healed first. —- This happens when we are converted or born again (Which takes place after we have faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior and or believing the gospel message that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day). Peter says we are born again by the Word of God by which the gospel is preached unto you.

I hope this helps, and may God bless you.

AbbaLove · May 18, 2023

Clare73 said:
In justification, we receive a forensic righteousness, right-wise standing with the Court, not holiness.

Did you mean to say "Judge" instead of "Court" ?

"In the 16th century, the Protestant Reformers came to understand human acceptance by God according to a "forensic" model, in which God declares humanity not guilty, even though they were in a moral sense still guilty of sin.".

.

WOW... Took Nearly 1600 Years ... (sounds a little like a foreunner to Arminian theology)

Paul's 1st century epistles made it clear that Christ's shed blood at Calvary was an atonement once for all time (It is finished). Yet it took nearly 1600 years before the Pilgrims (Protestants) realized they'd had to get out from under the King and the persecution of the mother church and a Pope having the final word as the vicar of Christ. His supposed claim(right) at that time was to stand in the place of Jesus Christ as the church authority. Now born again Christians have at least one Bible ... 1 John 2:27.

It's in no small measure that this so-called "forensic" [theology] model influenced many theologians and church-goers to misinterpret Romans 7:14-25. Mistakingly believing that Paul actually considered himself to still be a "chief and "foremost" sinner after his Spiritual born again renewal as a new creation in Christ with supernatural Giftings.

Romans 6:6

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Hebrews 13:12

Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Hebrews 10:14

For by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

1 John 3:9 (sanctified and justified)

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

ladodgers6 · May 18, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Okay. Your not getting it. God would not bother to ask Cain to do something he is not capable of doing. That would be like God asking Cain to shoot lasers from his eyes or fly into the air (even though he was not given such abilities). It would be illogical of God to expect Cain to do something that he is not capable of doing. This is what you are failing to understand here. Cain is proof that he was not so Totally Depraved that he could not obey God. God said that he could do right. But Cain simply just not to do so. It was Cain’s free will choice. This again is something you are not able to see that is so obvious in the Scriptures.

Okay??? I was hoping you would ask the right question. Anyway, the question we should be asking, is why God accepted Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's. I will not address your conjecture, but provide Scripture instead. Abel's sacrifice was accepted by God because Abel did it through Faith! And brought to the Lord, a firstborn Lamb; a type and shadow pointing to Christ, as a blood sacrifice to God!

Hebrews 4:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Know what you believe and why you believe it.

ladodgers6 · May 18, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Born again = Entering the Kingdom of God:

John 3:5
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5).

So being born again = saved or being able to enter the Kingdom of God.

To be converted = sins blotted out (Acts 3:19) forgiveness of sin (Mark 4:12):

Acts 3:19
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”

Mark 4:12
“That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”

Peter says, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted” Converted in this context means to be changed (transformed).

Webster's 1828 Dictionary

CONVERTED, participle passive Turned or changed from one substance or state to another; turned form one religion or sect to another; changed from a state of sin to a state of holiness; applied to a particular use; appropriated.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
CONVERT, verb intransitive To turn or be changed; to undergo a change.

Being converted (changed) in context here is dealing with salvation because one’s sins are being blotted out.

Regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost = saved (Which is shed abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior - whereby we are justified by His grace) (Titus 3:5):

Being justified by grace is the context; Also see Romans 3:24 (justified freely by his grace) and then compare that with Romans 1:16 which talks about the gospel being the power of God UNTO salvation to everyone who believes).

Titus 3:3-7
3 “For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Again, see “justified by his grace” and compare that with Romans 3:24, and then Romans 1:16.

We can see that this regeneration is dealing with being born again after we have faith in the gospel.

You say that being born again happens before we have faith.

This is false according to Scripture.

Peter makes it clear that we are born again by the Word of God (the Communicated Word - which is either the spoken Word of God during the early church days with the apostles, or the Scriptures we have today).

1 Peter 1:23-25
23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

1 Peter 2:2
“As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:”

While ”converted” can refer to being “born again,“ there is a kind of “be converted” that we must do:

Matthew 18:3 talks about this and it deals with salvation.

Matthew 18:3 - Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

The whole idea here is something that YOU MUST DO and not something God forces upon you. Lord Jesus is telling us to be humble like little children here so as to enter the Kingdom. God is not force electing or regenerating us to be humble. We have to choose to be humble here.

But I contend that Acts 28:27 has a different meaning when it mentions the word “converted.” I would stress that it means to be born again after we have placed faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Acts 28:27 talks about how when they are converted He shall heal them.
So you are saying this is not referring to being born again?

You propose that just being “converted” as always being defined as = Turn to God.
I would say that this is false because Acts 28:27 ties in the word converted with being healed. Are you saying you are not healed by being “born again” which you believe is before —- > faith and before —— > turning to God (converted)?

Also, to be circumcised in heart by God is to be born again in the Old Testament. See this thread here for the verses.

This is important to understand because Stephen said to the Jews that they were uncircumcised in heart (not born again) and yet they always do RESIST the Holy Ghost (See: Acts 7:51). That means that the problem lies upon them for resisting God and the problem has nothing to do with God not electing them to salvation (As Calvinists falsely teach).

We cannot be healed unless our heart is healed first.

I hope this helps, and may God bless you.

Sinners are either in Darkness or in God's Marvelous Light, there is no 3rd category. There's no space between Life and Death. Either we are dead in sin and trespasses or made alive in Christ.

Jesus is YHWH · May 18, 2023

Foghorn said:
OSAS makes sense if you understand it, but it is a false doctrine.

Perseverance of the saints is a correct biblical doctrine.

Like tulip makes sense if you understand it, but it is a false doctrine.

Clare73 · May 18, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Born again = Entering the Kingdom of God:

John 3:5
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5).
So being born again = saved or being able to enter the Kingdom of God.
To be converted = sins blotted out (Acts 3:19) forgiveness of sin (Mark 4:12):

Acts 3:19
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”
Mark 4:12
“That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”

Peter says, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted” Converted in this context means to be changed (transformed).

Webster's 1828 Dictionary

CONVERTED, participle passive Turned or changed from one substance or state to another; turned form one religion or sect to another; changed from a state of sin to a state of holiness; applied to a particular use; appropriated.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
CONVERT, verb intransitive To turn or be changed; to undergo a change.

Being converted (changed) in context here is dealing with salvation because one’s sins are being blotted out.

Regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost = saved (Which is shed abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior - whereby we are justified by His grace) (Titus 3:5):

Being justified by grace is the context; Also see Romans 3:24 (justified freely by his grace) and then compare that with Romans 1:16 which talks about the gospel being the power of God UNTO salvation to everyone who believes).
Titus 3:3-7
3 “For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Again, see “justified by his grace” and compare that with Romans 3:24, and then Romans 1:16.

We can see that this regeneration is dealing with being born again after we have faith in the gospel.

You say that being born again happens before we have faith.

This is false according to Scripture.

The NT does not attempt to present a logical order of the Holy Spirit's ministries in salvation.

Jn 3:3-5 makes clear the origin of it all. . .no one can even see, much less believe in, the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

Peter makes it clear that we are born again by the Word of God (the Communicated Word - which is either the spoken Word of God during the early church days with the apostles, or the Scriptures we have today).
1 Peter 1:23-25
23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

1 Peter 2:2
“As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:”
While ”converted” can refer to being “born again,“ there is a kind of “be converted” that we must do:

Matthew 18:3 talks about this and it deals with salvation.

Matthew 18:3 - Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

The whole idea here is something that YOU MUST DO and not something God forces upon you.

Strawman. . .

Lord Jesus is telling us to be humble like little children here so as to enter the Kingdom. God is not force electing or regenerating us to be humble. We have to choose to be humble here.
But I contend that Acts 28:27 has a different meaning when it mentions the word “converted.” I would stress that it means to be born again after we have placed faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Acts 28:27 talks about how when they are converted He shall heal them.
So you are saying this is not referring to being born again?
You propose that just being “converted” as always being defined as = Turn to God.
I would say that this is false because Acts 28:27 ties in the word converted with being healed. Are you saying you are not healed by being “born again” which you believe is before —- > faith and before —— > turning to God (converted)?

Also, to be circumcised in heart by God is to be born again in the Old Testament. See this thread here for the verses.

This is important to understand because Stephen said to the Jews that they were uncircumcised in heart (not born again) and yet they always do RESIST the Holy Ghost (See: Acts 7:51). That means that the problem lies upon them for resisting God and the problem has nothing to do with God not electing them to salvation (As Calvinists falsely teach).

We cannot be healed unless our heart is healed first. —- This happens when we are converted or born again (Which takes place after we have faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior and or believing the gospel message that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day). Peter says we are born again by the Word of God by which the gospel is preached unto you.

I hope this helps, and may God bless you.

Clare73 · May 18, 2023

AbbaLove said:
Did you mean to say "Judge" instead of "Court" ?

I meant them to be the same thing. . .thanks.

"In the 16th century, the Protestant Reformers came to understand human acceptance by God according to a "forensic" model, in which God declares humanity not guilty, even though they were in a moral sense still guilty of sin.".
WOW... Took Nearly 1600 Years ... (sounds a little like a foreunner to Arminian theology)
Paul's 1st century epistles made it clear that Christ's shed blood at Calvary was an atonement once for all time (It is finished). Yet it took nearly 1600 years before the Pilgrims (Protestants) realized they'd had to get out from under the King and the persecution of the mother church and a Pope having the final word as the vicar of Christ. His supposed claim(right) at that time was to stand in the place of Jesus Christ as the church authority. Now born again Christians have at least one Bible ... 1 John 2:27.

It's in no small measure that this so-called "forensic" [theology] model influenced many theologians and church-goers to misinterpret Romans 7:14-25. Mistakingly believing that Paul actually considered himself to still be a "chief and "foremost" sinner after his Spiritual born again renewal as a new creation in Christ with supernatural Giftings.

Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

Hebrews 13:12
Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

1 John 3:9 (sanctified and justified)
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Jesus is YHWH · May 18, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
Sinners are either in Darkness or in God's Marvelous Light, there is no 3rd category. There's no space between Life and Death. Either we are dead in sin and trespasses or made alive in Christ.

Category mistake . There are unsaved sinners and saved saints .

ladodgers6 · May 18, 2023

Jesus is YHWH said:
Category mistake . There are unsaved sinners and saved saints .

Broad stroke, either you are in union with Adam or in union with Christ, there's no 3rd category, sorry.

Jesus is YHWH · May 18, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
Broad stroke, either you are in union with Adam or in union with Christ, there's no 3rd category, sorry.

Either a sinner or a saint, lost or saved. A saved saint or a lost sinner

Foghorn · May 18, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
Sinners are either in Darkness or in God's Marvelous Light, there is no 3rd category. There's no space between Life and Death. Either we are dead in sin and trespasses or made alive in Christ.

Amen!

ladodgers6 said:
Broad stroke, either you are in union with Adam or in union with Christ, there's no 3rd category, sorry.

amen!

ladodgers6 · May 18, 2023

Jesus is YHWH said:
Either a sinner or a saint, lost or saved. A saved saint or a lost sinner

Either condemned in Adam or justified in Christ.

Foghorn · May 18, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
Either condemned in Adam or justified in Christ.

Yep

Jesus is YHWH · May 18, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
Either condemned in Adam or justified in Christ.

Sinners stand condemned and saints are justified.

Foghorn · May 18, 2023

ladodgers6 said:
Broad stroke, either you are in union with Adam or in union with Christ, there's no 3rd category, sorry.

Indeed there is no 3rd category. There are only two positions.

Justification and Sanctification ?

Blood-bought

Contributor

Blood-bought

Contributor

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Circumcism Of The Heart

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

my Lord and my God !

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

my Lord and my God !

Know what you believe and why you believe it

my Lord and my God !

Saved by grace

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Saved by grace

my Lord and my God !

Saved by grace

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