Justification and Sanctification ?

[ladodgers6]

Then He is not ruling yet.

I didn't say that, he ruling right now in heaven at the Father's right hand. God gave who all authority over heaven and earth right now, correct? If you don't agree with this, then Christ is not Lord, right?

Ephesians 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

​

While it is true that believing is a work of God (John 6:29), it does not mean one is forced against their will to believe.

Of course, we are in agreement. The Gospel, God's breath, commands us to come out of the darkness and into his marvelous light. As his command to let there be light. God shine light into our hearts to know and understand the knowledge of the Gospel, and we come forth willingly in the Spirit! And this is a Divine Act of Grace on God's part for the ungodly who believe, and trust in God who justifies the ungodly apart from any works.​

Matthew 23:37 says,

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me” (NLT).​

As we can see from this verse above, Jesus wanted to gather the inhabitants of Jerusalem but they would not let Jesus to do so. But if irresistible grace was true, Jesus could just snap His fingers and gather the inhabtants of Jerusalem (Seeing He is God).

Hebrews 11 talks about without faith it is impossible to please God. Jesus was amazed at the centurions’ great faith. Why would Jesus marvel at his faith if it was something God the Father did? While God does help to illuminate the truth of the faith to men, we have free will to either accept His truth or not.

Allow me to share something with you here. And just ponder upon it for a while and pray for understanding. Trying to locate your salvation in your response, rather than in the Gospel itself is the issue. Your faith or faith doesn't make the Gospel Promise true. Justifying Faith comes by hearing the Gospel. When transitioning from Arminianism to Calvinism I spent a lot of time in the area of Prevenient Grace. Both Arminianism & Calvinism teach that Prevenient Grace precedes Faith without question. But where it differs, is that, Arminianism teaches it can be resisted, as where in Calvinism its effectual Grace.

So, let's ask the tough questions, what does Prevenient Grace accomplish in the Arminian view. Arminian views says that Prevenient Grace partially regenerates the sinner to fully understand, and places the sinner in limbo between Life & Death, and it's here, they make a decision that will seal their fate. Either accept and live forever in heaven or reject and be condemned for forever in the second death and punishment in the lake of fire. But will is such a teaching, trust me I looked, it's not there. There is no room between life and death. Paul says in Ephesians, while you were dead, God made you alive in Christ.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

This is our fallen condition, by nature children of wrath. This depicts our plight before God, not good at all, but horrific. But there is marvelous conjunction in these passages too. The word, "BUT".

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It says, "But God", the cause. And God and you, " But God"! made us alive in Christ, is this all his doing; through a Promise he made, and he fulfilled it in his son for his people to save them from their sins, and gives then eternal life, and no body can snatch them out of his hand!​

2 Thessalonians 2:12 says the wicked perish because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. God does not gift you faith. In Ephesians 2:8-9, it says it is the GIFT (singular) of God, and not how God’s grace through faith are the gifts of God (plural). God does not gift faith to a person. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). You also fail to understand that those who are unfruitful will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So yes. You need to be fruitful (have works) to enter the Kingdom. To preach against this is to suggest one does not need any fruit or works so as to enter the Kingdom of God.​

Look at it this way. Christ heals the blind to see, he heals the deaf to hear, he heals the lame to walk. It's our eyes that see, our ears that hear, our legs that walk, but this is not our doing, to heal ourselves to hear him, see him, or walk to him. This is the divine work of God alone, highlighter, and not fallen man. That's why scripture says, let him who have ears, hear, and so forth.​

 

[Clare73]

So then why would Scripture say to repent and be converted in Acts 3:19?
To be converted means to be regenerated.

Because all mankind starts out as sinners.

And regenerated does not mean converted, it means re-born; i.e., God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit.

Repent (turn) and be converted (to God).

 

[ladodgers6]

Because all mankind starts out as sinners.

Repent (turn) and be converted (to God)

So then why would Scripture say to repent and be converted in Acts 3:19?
To be converted means to be regenerated.

Because God's commands them to come out of the darkness into his marvelous Light. Otherwise sinners would never repent. But again Prevenient Grace precedes faith, correct?

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[ladodgers6]

So then why would Scripture say to repent and be converted in Acts 3:19?
To be converted means to be regenerated.

Does Prevenient Grace come before Faith and Repentance?

 

[Clare73]

Because God's commands them to come out of the darkness into his marvelous Light. Otherwise sinners would never repent. But again Prevenient Grace precedes faith, correct?

Yes, faith is a gift (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 3:48, Ac 18:27, Ro 12:3).

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[ladodgers6]

Post #672 was written to Claire and not you, my friend. But if you believe I falsely accused you of something you did not believe in, then please bring that up here and now and I will apologize. I do not like to misrepresent what people believe. Granted, that does not mean I am not correct on attacking the general belief of Calvinists, though. So if I attack Calvinism, it may not always fit your version of Calvinism. Please keep that in mind.

As for name calling: Well, I don’t believe I attacked you personally. But I do not like the belief of Calvinism (Which I see as false). If you believe I have slandered you personally (calling you names personally then please show me where I did that, and I will apologize).

Okay this post is not for me. No problem I'll leave you to it.

 

[AbbaLove]

I am referring to even those who use 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to sin on some level.

You mean like the same ones who use Romans 7:14-25 to justify their belief that at least they aren't a "chief, foremost, first" sinner like Paul, who vehemently persecuted followers of His WAY before his conversion.

Jesus told the lame man: "Stop sinning or something worse may happen" and the women caught in adultery to "Go and stop sinning". Those Words were before the Sanctificaton by the Lamb of GOD at Calvary followed 50 days later by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost.

For some Christians to justify their belief that it's impossible to stop sinning they believe that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of those nine supernatural Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-11) ceased after the death of the Apostle John.

1John 1:8 ... More likely referring to Jewish converts who possibly look upon gentile Christians as the real sinners as they aren't even circumcised, don't eat kosher food, etc, etc, etc, etc. Thus why the Apostle John refers to Jewish converts as "little children" so they don't get a big head in thinking of themselves as non-sinners in comparison to non-Jewish gentile Christians.

Romans 7:25​

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[a] a slave to the law of sin.​

Romans 8:3-4​

3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.​

In other words the Baptism of the Holy Spirit makes it possible for a Christian to live a life of faithful obedience as a new creation in Christ.

 

[setst777]

Good Day,Setst

You said- The writer would not have written those warnings to the Christian brothers if they were guaranteed to remain saved.

I pointed to Hebrew 7 to show you that that had already been addressed by the writer of Hebrews.
Saved to the uttermost based upon His living to make intersession….

Here:

I love the warning passages they server 2 functions in my life. They keep my dependent on the mediator of the NC also gives me great love and respect for my past school master the law even know I have set it aside.

The other a little more obscure it reminds me to morn for those who are not saved even though they think they are.

How does Lord Jesus, who is our Mediator, guarantee that the believer will never fall away and be lost?

The Spirit of Christ, whom believers receive as the guarantee of eternal life will only give eternal life to the one who remains in the faith manifested by sowing to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7-9 (EWEB) Writing to the Church in Galatia 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

How does your understanding of Lord Jesus intercessor the saints harmonize with the warning to the Church about believers falling away in the Book of Hebrews harmonize with your understanding of intercession in that same book?

Hebrews 12:25 (WEB) See that you don’t refuse him who speaks. For if they didn’t escape when they refused him who warned on the earth, how much more will we not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (EWEB) Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 5:9 (EWEB) Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation

Hebrews 6:11-12 (EWEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance {{inherited the promises}}.

Is your understanding in harmony with what Lord Jesus, our intercessor, taught the Church?

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB) “I know your works; in that, you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Luke 21:34-36 (EWEB) 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

I disagree I believe Jesus was quite clear in the issue, and the writer of the Hebrews in explaining the finality NC to Jews. With out getting too deep into the short falls of the OC there are NT Scholar that do better than I Ever could ( DA Carson NT use of the OT and he did a series on Hebrews that is on youtube) and Schreiner work on Hebrews or the magnum work from John Owen if you are feeling very energetic.

You may find it useful to read the Jewish writings on Melchizedek and what was believed by the Jews and why the writer addressed that the NC saves to the uttermost, and the function of Jesus as Priest and intercessor for His NC people.

Just read the context. Read the Book of Hebrews from beginning to end (a short read) as you would read any other book (in context). Would you agree that the Corinthian Church is mainly a Gentile Church? Yet, Paul teaches the very same thing as in Hebrews.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 (EWEB) Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were {{our examples}}, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” [Exodus 32:6] 8 Let us not commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell. 9 Let us not test Christ, as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents. 10 Do not grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

Hebrew 7

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.” For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever.’” This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Notice, all of this teaching about the Melchizedek are for those who draw near to God through him. Not every Christian will continue to draw near to God by faith in Lord Jesus and will be lost. That is true for the Jew and the Gentile, because God does not show favoritism or partiality.

Romans 11:21-22 (EWEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those {{{who fell}}}, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

As I had posted the warning passages are the means that God uses to keep his NC people on the straight and narrow as it were, and they are very effective.

In Him

Bill

True, because those who are in the faith can fall away and be lost, just as the Scriptures keep warning us about from Matthew to Revelation. For instance:

Matthew 5:13; Luke 14:33-35; Luke 13:23-29; Matthew 10:21-22; Matthew 24:11-13; Matthew 24:42-44; Luke 12:34-40; Matthew 24:45- 51; Matthew 25:14-30; Mark 13:32-37; Luke 21:19; Luke 21:34-36; John 15:1-6; Romans 11:20-22; John 15:8-10; Acts 14:21-22; Acts 20:18-21; Acts 20:28-31; Romans 6:1-24; Romans 8:3-4; Romans 8:12-14; Romans 8:16-17; Romans 12:1-2; Romans 15:1-2; 1 Corinthians 9:23-27; 1 Corinthians 10:1-12; 2 Corinthians 2:9; 2 Corinthians 11:2-4; 2 Corinthians 12:19-22; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 4:9-11; Galatians 5:1-4; Galatians 6:7-9; Ephesians 4:17-32; Ephesians 5:3-9; 1 Thessalonians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; Philippians 3:12-14; Colossians 1:21-23; Colossians 2:8; Colossians 3:1-17; 1 Timothy 1:18-19; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 6:10-12; 1 Timothy 6:17-19; 1 Timothy 6:20-21; 2 Timothy 2:11-12; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; Hebrews 3:4-6; Hebrews 3:12-15; Hebrews 4:1; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 6:11-12; Hebrews 7:24-25; Hebrews 10:24-31; Hebrews 10:35-36; Hebrews 12:14-17; Hebrews 12:25; 1 Peter 1:6-7; 1 Peter 1:13-19; 2 Peter 1:8-11; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Peter 2:17-21; 2 Peter 3:16-18; James 1:12-16; 1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 2:24-26; 2 John 7-11; Jude 1:21; Revelation 2:10-11; Revelation 3:1-5; Revelation 3:11-12; Revelation 3:15-21; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 16:15; Revelation 21:6-8; Revelation 22:12-15.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your Sanctification, that YOU abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that EACH ONE OF YOU know how to control his own body in Sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned YOU and testified. 7 For God called US not for uncleanness, but in Sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

1 Thessalonians 3:5 (EWEB) 5 For this cause I also, when I couldn’t stand it any longer, sent that I might know your faith, for fear that by any means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor would have been in vain.

1 Timothy 1:18-19 (WEB) 18 I commit this instruction to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which were given to you before, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 “holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away “made a shipwreck” (Greek: enauagēsan) concerning the faith”

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 4:16 (EWEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear (listen) you.

1 Timothy 6:10-12 (WEB) 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB) 18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (WEB) 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 (WEB) 16 But shun empty chatter, for it will go further in ungodliness, 17 and those words will consume like gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus: 18 men who have erred concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past, and overthrowing the faith of some.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 (WEB) 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (WEB) 3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn away to fables.

2 Timothy 4:9-10 (WEB) 9 Be diligent to come to me soon, 10 for Demas left me, having loved this present world, and went to Thessalonica

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure; for IF you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Clare73]

They will insist that our final justification will be grounded in our merits of works. Which is not what Paul is preaching at all in respect to Justification of the ungodly. Paul doesn't say the godly, but the ungodly who are in need of a doctor to heal them.

So, now Christ is replaced by them trying to be justified through the flesh, which places the yoke of the law back on them. This is precisely what Paul warned the Galatians about! They think Christ left something undone for us to finish. They have now turned the Gospel into Law, and the Law into Gospel. Now knowing that the good news is that Christ is our righteousness, and not only that, but his sanctification is also ours, free, a gift, received through Faith Alone apart form works!​

Actually, justification is a forensic righteousness; i.e., a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a finding of right standing with the Court (penalty paid). It is by faith alone (Ro 3:23), apart from works (Ro 3:28).

However, sanctification is by obedience in, and enabled by the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16-19).

"Holiness is a gift; otherwise we shall never have it. But we receive it now, at once, through justifying faith in Christ.

In justification, we receive a forensic righteousness, right-wise standing with the Court, not holiness.
Holiness is in sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16-19).

For this reason, moral virtue (holiness, the image of God) is one seamless garment, which cannot be reached and obtained in piecemeal fashion."

---Bavinck

Not according to the NT. . .​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You believe Prevenient Grace does it, correct?​

Again, I do not like the term “Prevenient Grace” because I see God’s grace as being salvific. There is no salvation prior to one having faith. I also see that Christ now draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). So there isn’t anyone He does not draw (except for those in the future who will worship the beast - See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).

And in the Classical Arminian view Prevenient Grace precedes Faith, right?​

I am not technically Arminian because I do not accept Total Depravity. I believe in Partial Depravity because God reasoned with Cain to do good (Which in my view does not make any sense In Calvinism). Cain is said to be of that wicked one accordng to Scripture (1 John 3:12), and so why would God try to reason with one who was of that wicked one unless Cain had some kind of ability to actually do good? (See Genesis 4:6-7).

But I will refer to Scripture.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his wil​

We are elected (or predestined) according to the foreknowedge of God the Father (See: 1 Peter 1:1-2). So this is not an UNconditional election or predestination. God sees what we are going to do ahead of time based on His foreknowledge and He elects us. Also, the Scriptures say that many are called, and few are chosen. This again, does not make any sense in Calvinism. You believe the Elect are the chosen and yet many are called. Why would God call those who were unable to come to Him under His illumination or drawing? It makes no sense.

12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.​

It says gospel of your salvation. So there was no salvation before the gospel. The gospel is what we received for salvation according to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
​

This has to be read in context to the rest of the Bible.
Jesus is not referring to some kind of hidden enabling or regeneration that forces them against their will to believe.

Ezekiel 18:23 says,
”Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?”

Ezekiel 33:11 says
“Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?”

So John 8:47 is talking about how they are not currently abiding with God because abiding in sin or the lusts of their father the devil. Hebrews 3 talks about how sin hardens the hearts. Men who reject the love of truth will be given a strong delusion to believe a lie. Sin blinds the hearts of men, and the only way they can come out is if they repent and change their ways. God or the Holy Spirit convicts the world of their sins (John 16:8-9), but that does not mean everyone in the world will respond to that conviction because they simply choose of their own free will to have a life of sin instead of choosing God. Sin is pleasurable and so men choose sin over God. The above verses in Ezekiel make it clear that the wicked have a choice to choose God (Whether that be under an illumination or drawing by God or by their knowledge of God’s existence by the creation whereby they are without excuse —— Romans 1:20). I believe God intervenes when necessary but it is not a violation of their free will choice to either choose God or reject Him. In Revelation, Jesus knocks on the door to come in. But it is up to the person to respond and open the door (See Revelation 3:20). Jesus does not use a battering ram to break the door down and mind wipe them by some kind of brain washing technique.

In the Reformed Faith we use scripture to interpret scripture, not conjecture.​

But there are Scripture verses I presented that refutes Calvinism that your not dealing with, though.
Again, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and Jonah 3:6-10 is all the proof that I need to refute Calvinism.
But wait. There is more. Jesus wanted to gather the inhabitants of Jerusalem but they would not let Him do so.
They thwarted God’s desire to elect them to salvation.

Agreed, who receives it, is the question. John 8 depicts who are the ones who will hear his voice and follow him. And in John 8 it also depicts those who do not believe, correct? They do not believe because they are not among his sheep. This passage doesn't say because you don't believe you are among my sheep, but contrary it says, they don't believe "BECAUSE" you are NOT among my sheep. I will also admit when I was an Arminian this was a hard pill to swallow for me. I am not looking to win an argument or save face, I could care less about that, I only want the truth.​

Speaking of the twelve disciples (Judas included) (Matthew 10:5), Jesus said to them,

”Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” (Matthew 10:16).

So Judas was once a sheep (Because he was said to be as a sheep sent out among wolves), and yet later he fell by his transgression where he obviously was no longer a sheep.

Sorry but this passage doesn't help your cause. But I will quote the rest of passages.

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
​

Here Paul highlights the regenerating power of God shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge!

Know what you believe and why you believe it.

Verse 6 here is not talking about a regeneration that proceeds faith. It does not say anything of the kind. It is merely saying that the Light (Jesus) is currently shining in their hearts and is giving them the light of knowledge (the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (before Him where nothing is hid because Jesus is God).

Plus, Satan blinds the minds of men which believe not according to 2 Corinthians 4:4. Why would Satan need to blind anyone who believes not if they are already depraved and blind by Total Depravity? It makes no sense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@ladodgers6

You believe in Election/Regeneration as the means of salvation.

But the Bible teaches that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.

Romans 1:16
”For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

Amen! When have I deny this? So, is the Holy Spirit not part of means of Salvation?

While one receives the Holy Spirit as a part of after receiving the gospel, receiving the Holy Spirit is not the gospel message.
The gospel message is that Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for your salvation according to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. That’s the gospel message that one receives to be saved. Paul does not say that one is saved prior to receiving the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15 and or any other place. He says they received the gospel by which they are saved. That’s where salvation starts.

You make false accusations against me, why? Please provide any post of mine, where I deny this? If not, you should make amends.

But you don’t believe the gospel message of Christ (Which is believing that Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for your salvation —— 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is the power of God UNTO salvation. That is how you get Salvation!!! It is to EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES. Believing what? The gospel message (Which the power of God unto salvation). You believe in Election/Regeneration is the power of God UNTO Salvation. That’s how you see where salvation starts. That is why I say you don’t believe this verse as it is plainly written. You see UNTO Salvation in the gospel message as some kind of continuation in the salvation plan. That’s not what it sounds like. It says the gospel is the power of God UNTO salvation. It sounds like a beginning to salvation. But I am sure you will disagree.

So, I will ask again, in your position does Prevenient Grace come prior to faith?

“Prevenient Grace” is a term I do not agree with because Grace is dealing with salvation. We gain access to God’s grace through faith (Romans 5:2). We don’t gain access to God’s grace without faith. That is contrary to Romans 5:2. Illuminations of His Word, conviction of the Holy Spirit, and the opening of the heart are all things God does to prepare a person to either accept or reject the truth of the gospel (Which is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for our salvation).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You mean like the same ones who use Romans 7:14-25 to justify their belief that at least they aren't a "chief, foremost, first" sinner like Paul, who vehemently persecuted followers of His WAY before his conversion.

Jesus told the lame man: "Stop sinning or something worse may happen" and the women caught in adultery to "Go and stop sinning". Those Words were before the Sanctificaton by the Lamb of GOD at Calvary followed 50 days later by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost.

I agree.

For some Christians to justify their belief that it's impossible to stop sinning

I would say that this is not some Christians, but this is pretty much the majority of Protestant Christianity (Not counting select Pentecostal churches).

they believe that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of those nine supernatural Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-11) ceased after the death of the Apostle John.

While I do tend to lean towards the belief that the Bible appears to teach the cessation of the miraculous gifts (and not the cessation of all gifts like teaching, etcetera), I do leave room for mystery in that they may continue in some remote part of this world or that they may be revived again during the End Times. But I am still very cautious to indulge in miracles today. My time is already full just by focusing on God’s grace and Sanctification. That is the most important thing we should focus on. I am not a miracle chaser because many who claim to appear to operate by the gifts from what I have seen in an hours long video do not appear to be operating by the power of God. Those who are involved in tongues (like Pentecostals) misunderstand the use of tongues and they tnink it is some kind of prayer language (when that is not what 1 Corinthians 14 is teaching). There are some Pentecostals who believe you must speak in tongues as evidence of having been baptized by the Holy Spirit. But Paul says do all speak in tongues? This means that not all speak in tongues.

1John 1:8 ... More likely referring to Jewish converts who possibly look upon gentile Christians as the real sinners as they aren't even circumcised, don't eat kosher food, etc, etc, etc, etc. Thus why the Apostle John refers to Jewish converts as "little children" so they don't get a big head in thinking of themselves as non-sinners in comparison to non-Jewish gentile Christians.

I dont’ see it that way because 1 John 1:10 says these folks believed that they never sinned in the past.
This perfectly describes the gnostic belief like Christian Science today that says sin is an illusion or not real.
One of my close beloved family members believed this (unfortunately). They thought sin was not truly real.
So 1 John 1:8 would apply to them.

“If we say we have no sin [in the sense that it does not exist]​

we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).​

Words in blue within brackets is my commentary to the text.

I believe this false gnostic belief was to those who were trying to seduce the brethren (1 John 2:26).
It is the same ones that Jude 1:4 talks about. They turned God’s grace into a license for immorality.
Its the lie the devil gave Eve in the Garden in that she could sin and not die.

Proverbs 30:20 says:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.”

It’s the same lie being perpetuated by many in Christianity today.

Romans 7:25​

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[a] a slave to the law of sin.​

Romans 8:3-4​

3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.​

In other words the Baptism of the Holy Spirit makes it possible for a Christian to live a life of faithful obedience as a new creation in Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, and Galatians 6:8-9 teach Sanctification of the Spirit is a part of salvation. However, many today cannot see this truth in Scripture.

 

[ladodgers6]

Again, I do not like the term Prevenient Grace because I see God’s grace as being salvific. There is no salvation prior to one having faith. I also see that Christ now draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). So there isn’t anyone He does not draw (except for those in the future who will worship the beast - See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).

How is God's Grace Salvific? Can you define this in detail for me?

I am not technically Arminian because I do not accept Total Depravity. I believe in Partial Depravity because God reasoned with Cain to do good (Which in my view does not make any sense In Calvinism). Cain is said to be of that wicked one accordng to Scripture (1 John 3:12), and so why would God try to reason with one who was of that wicked one unless Cain had some kind of ability to actually do good? (See Genesis 4:6-7).

So are you a Partial Arminian? Didn't you say you lean towards Arminianism and provide the 5 articles of it's position? Now with Cain, does he have an excuse not to obey the commandments even though he cannot? Will the wicked at the end of the age have any excuse before God? Should God lower his standard of holiness to let us in? Cain did not have faith in God, or trust in what God commanded. He disobeyed God and did not provide what God commanded, right? So are you suggesting that God is wrong for asking Cain to do what he commanded? Because he was unable to fulfill God's command? God gave the nation of Israel his Holy Law on two tablets. As a school master the Law kept God's people captive because of transgressions. The Law exposes the curse of our sins, and pointing God's people to the promise, of the Promised Seed! Even though the Law could never be fulfilled by our obedience, should God remove it, because we are unable to fulfill it, and be saved?

​

The Law and the Promise​

15 To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

So you see, it's not about us, Highlighter, stop looking inward that's the heart of the problem. Look "Extra Nos"!
​

We are elected (or predestined) according to the foreknowedge of God the Father (See: 1 Peter 1:1-2). So this is not an UNconditional election or predestination. God sees what we are going to do ahead of time based on His foreknowledge and He elects us. Also, the Scriptures say that many are called, and few are chosen. This again, does not make any sense in Calvinism. You believe the Elect are the chosen and yet many are called. Why would God call those who were unable to come to Him under His illumination or drawing? It makes no sense.

Do you know that your theology seems really close to Semi-Pelagianism, right? When ever there's a weak view of sin, there's a weak view of Grace. I had this problem as an Arminian, until I finally heard the Doctrines of Grace that Calvinism teaches. Now in regards to foreknowledge God is not looking down the corridors of time and seeing whose been bad or good. The only thing God would see is sin, period. That's why he sent his Son to rescue us from this dreadful condition (Matt. 1:21). And all being under the curse of the Law.

As far as foreknowledge, it doesn't say "WHAT" he foreknew, but those "WHOM" he foreknew; the beloved; the elect; those whom he chose; those he predestined. So, again there's nothing of virtue God saw in us to determine who would be saved or not. Because nobody seeks after God, we are hostile toward God, and we were enemies of God, and it's in this condition that he finds us and saves us. That's why it's unconditional election, not condition. This is a Semi-Pelagian view, sorry, look it up. Don't take my word for it.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
​

Take note of how the highlighted words are in the past tense. Covenant of Redemption!

Know what you believe and why you believe it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How is God's Grace Salvific? Can you define this in detail for me?

​

An entire thread and deep study in God’s Word could be devoted to this question. But I know the Bible ties in the word “grace“ with “salvation” (which is sufficient to prove my point that “Prevenient Grace” is an incorrect term to describe God illuminating, drawing, convicting, and opening men’s hearts as needed to show them the truth of the gospel). One does not receive salvation until they receive the gospel of the grace of God (Which is described to us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that we are to believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for our salvation).

Ephesians 2:8
”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

Romans 3:24
“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”

Acts 15:11
”But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”

The gospel is called the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24), and yet we are saved by receiving and standing upon the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Philippians 1:7 says, “in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.” So again, we see a connection made between grace and the gospel. They are partakers of grace through the gospel.

Ephesians 1:7
“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;”

Ephesians 2:5
”Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )”

Titus 2:11
”For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

The grace of God that BRINGS SALVATION appeared to ALL men!!!!

Titus 3:7
“That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Hebrews 4:16
”Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace,that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

This is 1 John 1:9, Psalms 51, Luke 18:9-14, Luke 15:11-32.
This seeking forgiveness of one’s sins with the Lord is done with the intention of forsaking sin (Jonah 3:6-10) whereby God will turn away His wrath or judgment upon wicked men. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

1 Peter 5:5
”God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.”

James 4:6
”God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.”

So one has to be humble in order for God to give grace to them. If one is proud, they will not be given grace.
This means that we have to be humble and not God forcing us to be humble by some kind of regeneration.
It would simply say you need to be regenerated (so as to be humble) to be able to be given grace.
But it simply says the humble. No regeneration proceeding faith is mentioned.

Jude 1:4
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Most in Christianity today take 1 John 1:8 as some kind of banner flag to justify the idea that they will always sin and still be saved this side of Heaven. This is turning God’s grace into lascinviousness (or turning God’s grace into a license to sin).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So are you a Partial Arminian? Didn't you say you lean towards Arminianism and provide the 5 articles of it's position?​

If you were to have read all of my post #77 in the other thread, I ALSO say this:

​

My five points that I would consider Biblical are the following:​

​

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).​

#2. Conditional Salvation.​

#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).​

#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).​

#5. Partial Depravity.​

These points are influenced from the 5 points in Arminianism. My 5 points spells the word: CCUPP.​

Notice the list above.
That is what I believe.
The first list in post #77 is what fully committed Arminians believe.
Leaning towards something means one is partial towards it and not entirely committed.
I believe in Partial Arminianism because I accept Conditional Election on their list.
Other points on their list are close but not precise.
I also reject Total Depravity, etcetera.

I believe the Atonement is for the majority of mankind but it is restricted from those who will worship the beast in the future (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8). So I do not exactly agree entirely with their statement on Unlimited Atonement. It’s close but not exact. Jesus did die for the majority of people’s sins in the world except for those who worship the beast in the future. While God can help us to be secure in Him (Whereby we cannot be snatched out of His hand), this is conditioned upon our following the shepherd’s voice. God does not help us to persevere unless we are obedient. While Conditional Preservation of the Saints can be interpreted this way, I believe that such a term is focusing on the wrong thing (Which is God making us to persevere). We are to draw near to God and He will draw near to us. So the focus should be salvation (Which is conditional). If we focus on having the right faith and faithfulness according to His Word, we will be kept by God. But if we say God will help us to persevere even conditionallly it takes the focus off our responsibility in following what God tells to do by faith. We should never be cavalier that God is going to just help us to persevere. The Bible says he that thinks himself to be something when he is nothing deceives himself. We always have to constantly test ourselves to see whether we be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Now with Cain, does he have an excuse not to obey the commandments even though he cannot? Will the wicked at the end of the age have any excuse before God? Should God lower his standard of holiness to let us in? Cain did not have faith in God, or trust in what God commanded. He disobeyed God and did not provide what God commanded, right? So are you suggesting that God is wrong for asking Cain to do what he commanded? Because he was unable to fulfill God's command?

Okay. Your not getting it. God would not bother to ask Cain to do something he is not capable of doing. That would be like God asking Cain to shoot lasers from his eyes or fly into the air (even though he was not given such abilities). It would be illogical of God to expect Cain to do something that he is not capable of doing. This is what you are failing to understand here. Cain is proof that he was not so Totally Depraved that he could not obey God. God said that he could do right. But Cain simply chose not to do so. It was Cain’s free will choice. This again is something you are not able to see that is so obvious in the Scriptures.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God gave the nation of Israel his Holy Law on two tablets. As a school master the Law kept God's people captive because of transgressions. The Law exposes the curse of our sins, and pointing God's people to the promise, of the Promised Seed! Even though the Law could never be fulfilled by our obedience, should God remove it, because we are unable to fulfill it, and be saved?

​

The Law and the Promise​

15 To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

So you see, it's not about us, Highlighter, stop looking inward that's the heart of the problem. Look "Extra Nos"!​

We are not under the 613 Laws of Moses (even though certain laws have been repeated into the New Testament like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etcetera). We are under the Laws that come from Christ and His followers.
Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. We do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, holy days, etcetera. Acts 15 makes this fact clear.

But we also know that Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).
Hebrews 5:9 basically says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Jesus is not the author of eternal salvation to those who disobey Him.
God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Do you know that your theology seems really close to Semi-Pelagianism, right? When ever there's a weak view of sin, there's a weak view of Grace. I had this problem as an Arminian, until I finally heard the Doctrines of Grace that Calvinism teaches.

I don’t have a weak view of sin. I believe there are many sins that can condemn a Christian’s soul unless they confess and forsake them. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. Jesus makes it clear that there are sins that can damn our souls in the afterlife (See again: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62). Even the apostle Paul teaches the same thing (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and 1 Timothy 5:8).

A belief alone in Jesus Christ for salvation is not going to cut it, and neither is believing in the unbiblical belief of Calvinism that wrongfully says we are regenerated before faith when the Bible does not teach that. I already demonstrated multiple times already verses that refutes Calvinism. No offense, but I actuallly despise Calvinism and see it as more insane of a belief than the Flat Earth belief. So no. You did not believe as I did. I see Calvinism as an immoral belief on several levels. You have God forcing some to be saved and others to not be saved. This is wrong because that means God created the majority of mankind with them only having one fate or destiny in life and that is to be tortured forever in flames of hell. Then there is the sin and still be saved belief that is defended by the misuse of verses like 1 John 1:8, ectcetera. Then to make matters even worse, many Calvinists claim that God decrees sin to happen in this life, as well. Up is down and down is up in Calvinism.

Now in regards to foreknowledge God is not looking down the corridors of time and seeing whose been bad or good. The only thing God would see is sin, period. That's why he sent his Son to rescue us from this dreadful condition (Matt. 1:21). And all being under the curse of the Law.

No. God would see how men would accept the gospel message and be saved.
Remember, God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
But you don’t believe ALL is referring to all people in human existence but only to the Elect when that does not sound like it is referring to just a few like the Elect.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
​

Take note of how the highlighted words are in the past tense. Covenant of Redemption!

Know what you believe and why you believe it.

This is in context to those who love God and called according to his purpose which is to believe the gospel message (2 Timothy 1:9), and live a sanctified life by the Spirit (Romans 8:13).

Romans 8:28
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.“

We are predestined (based on God’s foreknowledge and not UNcondtional Election - 1 Peter 1:1-2).
We are called and yet not all who are called are chosen. So that means that those who are called may not make it to be justified.
Justifified being the next step involves being justified by faith (Romans 5:1).
Justified includes being justified freely by his grace (Romans 3:24). So it’s not a hostile take-over.
Justified also includes works. For James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Was not Abraham justified by works when he offered Isaac upon the altar? (James 2:21).
Yet, in Hebrews 11:17, it says by faith, Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar.
It’s called the “work of faith” in the Bible for a reason.
It’s called “faithfulness” in the Bible for a reason because the word “faithfulness” is derived from “faith.”
So if we are justified by faith we will be glorified.
All instructions in your Bible is a part of the faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
It’s why there is a whole chapter dedicated to men of God doing things as a part of the faith (See: Hebrews 11).

 

[ladodgers6]

An entire thread and deep study in God’s Word could be devoted to this question.

Agreed, and a lot of great books have been written on this subject. In the Reformed faith we have ordo saltis. It seems you do not have this, correct? You give very broad strokes, and you speak more strictly to what, how, why, and when God's Grace is Salvific?

But I know the Bible ties in the word “grace“ with “salvation” (which is sufficient to prove my point that “Prevenient Grace” is an incorrect term to describe God illuminating, drawing, convicting, and opening men’s hearts as needed). One does not receive salvation until they receive the gospel of the grace of God (Which is described to us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that we are to believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for our salvation).

Ephesians 2:8
”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

Romans 3:24
“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”

Acts 15:11
”But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”

The gospel is called the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24), and yet we are saved by receiving and standing upon the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Philippians 1:7 says, “in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.” So again, we see a connection made between grace and the gospel. They are partakers of grace through the gospel.

Ephesians 1:7
“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;”

Ephesians 2:5
”Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )”

Titus 2:11
”For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

The grace of God that BRINGS SALVATION appeared to ALL men!!!!

Titus 3:7
“That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Hebrews 4:16
”Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace,that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

This is 1 John 1:9, Psalms 51, Luke 18:9-14, Luke 15:11-32.
This seeking forgiveness of one’s sins with the Lord is done with the intention of forsaking sin (Jonah 3:6-10) whereby God will turn away His wrath or judgment upon wicked men. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

1 Peter 5:5
”God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.”

James 4:6
”God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.”

So one has to be humble in order for God to give grace to them. If one is proud, they will not be given grace.
This means that we have to be humble and not God forcing us to be humble by some kind of regeneration.
It would simply say you need to be regenerated (so as to be humble) to be able to be given grace.
But it simply says the humble. No regeneration proceeding faith is mentioned.

Jude 1:4
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Most in Christianity today take 1 John 1:8 as some kind of banner flag to justify the idea that they will always sin and still be saved this side of Heaven. This is turning God’s grace into lascinviousness (or turning God’s grace into a license to sin).

Amen to these passages. Prevenient Grace is also taught is Calvinism, not the same as Arminianism though. Because we believe and teach that God's Grace precedes Faith, Repentance and it is effectual in its purpose. Where as in Arminianism it has no power, because it can be resisted, why and how, no Arminian has provided that answer. If a sinner is given the knowledge and wisdom to understand by the illumination of the mind and heart to God. Why would anyone resist? Why would anyone reject it?​

 

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Agreed, and a lot of great books have been written on this subject. In the Reformed faith we have ordo saltis. It seems you do not have this, correct? You give very broad strokes, and you speak more strictly to what, how, why, and when God's Grace is Salvific?

I have ZERO interest in any Calvinist teachings. Please take note that I not only find Calvinism to be a gross misinterpretation of Scripture big time, but I also find Calvinism to be immoral on three levels.

Amen to these passages. Prevenient Grace is also taught is Calvinism, not the same as Arminianism though.​

But Arminians are wrong for calling it Preveneint Grace. Grace is dealing with salvation according to the Scriptures I shown to you.

Because we believe and teach that God's Grace precedes Faith, Repentance and it is effectual in its purpose. Where as in Arminianism it has no power, because it can be resisted, why and how, no Arminian has provided that answer. If a sinner is given the knowledge and wisdom to understand by the illumination of the mind and heart to God. Why would anyone resist? Why would anyone reject it?​

Jesus said repent or perish. He did not say, wait till you are regenerated so you are able to repent.
The jailor asked what he must do to be saved. If Calvinism was true, Paul and Silas would have said, “Do nothing! God will regenerate you if you are one of the Elect and then you will know what to do.” Calvinism does not align with Scripture. It’s an outside belief that one has to force upon the Bible that does not fit all that well. It’s like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. One has to do backflip twists with Scripture at every turn if one believes in Calvinism. Just reading the story about how God was trying to tell Cain to do good, or reading Jonah 3:6-10 refutes Calvinism. Calvinism is not in the Bible!

 

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Because all mankind starts out as sinners.

And regenerated does not mean converted, it means re-born; i.e., God's divine eternal life imparted to the immortal human spirit.

Repent (turn) and be converted (to God).

Sorry. That makes no sense. Being born again is the regeneration. Converted sounds like a regeneration.

Just look at Acts 28:27. It says,
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

It says their heart has waxed gross and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they close then they are converted.
Yet, you believe there is a regeneration must take place so one can see and hear, and this takes place before being born again.
Yet, Acts 28:27 describes how one has dull hearing, and their eyes are closed and they are converted.
This conversion is when a person is born again.
To say so otherwise makes no sense. Being converted is the regeneration.

The good news is not being saved in some imaginary regeneration that proceeds faith.
The good news is the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 10:15
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 10:16-17
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that we believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day according to the Scriptures for our salvation.

This is the gospel that saves.
It’s not Election/Regeneration that saves.