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Justice and Mercy

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Wiccan_Child

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God is often described as all-just and all-merciful. But aren't these two qualities mutually exclusive?

To be just is to appropriately punish the guilty, and to not punish the innocent. To be merciful is to abstain from punishing the guilty.

How, then, can a moral agent both punish the guilty and not punish the guilty? It seems like a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction (an inviolable law if ever there was one).

So, how do Christians reconcile these seemingly contradictory traits in God? Or am I merely arguing semantics? If the latter, how do Christians define the 'all-just' and 'all-merciful' attributes of God? Indeed, do Christians attribute these things to God at all (or even say that God can be either in any given scenario)?
 
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aiki

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God is often described as all-just and all-merciful. But aren't these two qualities mutually exclusive?

I've been a Christian for almost forty years and I've never heard God described as all-merciful or all-just. The Bible doesn't describe Him this way, in any event. He is very merciful and perfectly just, but neither of these characteristics totally dominates who He is or exists to the exclusion of all His other attributes.

To be just is to appropriately punish the guilty, and to not punish the innocent. To be merciful is to abstain from punishing the guilty.

How, then, can a moral agent both punish the guilty and not punish the guilty? It seems like a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction (an inviolable law if ever there was one).

Seems - but actually is not. That God does not cast you into Hell the moment you first sin is an act of His mercy. That God allows people to live their entire lives with their backs to Him, willfully defiant and disobedient toward Him, is a demonstration of His mercy. That God holds back the full consequences of a person's sin for a time, in the hope that doing so might encourage that person to repentance also shows God's mercy. But God's mercy does have a limit; at some point it must give way to his holy justice. Eventually, a just God must punish the guilty. And so He does. He ceases to withhold consequences: A glutton suffers a heart attack; a promiscuous person contracts a disease; a violent offender finds himself in prison; the unrepentant sinner who dies in his sins faces an eternity of torment. God's mercy and justice, then, are not mutually exclusive, or in contradiction: the latter simply waits upon the former for a time .

So, how do Christians reconcile these seemingly contradictory traits in God? Or am I merely arguing semantics? If the latter, how do Christians define the 'all-just' and 'all-merciful' attributes of God? Indeed, do Christians attribute these things to God at all (or even say that God can be either in any given scenario)?

See above.

Peace to you.
 
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ebia

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God is often described as all-just and all-merciful. But aren't these two qualities mutually exclusive?

To be just is to appropriately punish the guilty, and to not punish the innocent. To be merciful is to abstain from punishing the guilty.

How, then, can a moral agent both punish the guilty and not punish the guilty? It seems like a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction (an inviolable law if ever there was one).

So, how do Christians reconcile these seemingly contradictory traits in God? Or am I merely arguing semantics? If the latter, how do Christians define the 'all-just' and 'all-merciful' attributes of God? Indeed, do Christians attribute these things to God at all (or even say that God can be either in any given scenario)?
I think the problem lies with the definitions of both. As we better understand each (eg understanding Justice as restorative justice, not punative justice) the two begin to converge. I suggest that's where we need to be heading - towards that understanding where justice and mercy are two sides of the same coin.
 
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ephraimanesti

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To be just is to appropriately punish the guilty, and to not punish the innocent. To be merciful is to abstain from punishing the guilty.

How, then, can a moral agent both punish the guilty and not punish the guilty?
GOD IS MERCIFUL in that He has abstained from punishing sinful human beings as their many, consistent, and grievous sins deserve.

GOD IS JUST in that He placed our sins upon Jesus on the Cross and Jesus willingly suffered the penalty of sin in our place.

ALL GLORY TO OUR JUST AND MERCIFUL GOD! May you stop playing word games and avail yourself of His Justice and Mercy while it remains available for the asking!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim
 
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drich0150

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How, then, can a moral agent both punish the guilty and not punish the guilty? It seems like a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction (an inviolable law if ever there was one).
Because Jesus was made the sacrifice for those of us who were "guilty" by excepting him as our savior. (That is how the "guilty" can escape punishment) for all of the rest of the guilty (Who do not know or refuse Jesus) are punished as guilty should be..

If the latter, how do Christians define the 'all-just' and 'all-merciful' attributes of God?
The Fact that we have been presented with a choice to sin or not, and Knowing that all sin no matter how small leads to Death, shows the "Just" side of the Lord. Providing us with a way to have forgiveness for those sins if we choose to except it shows the all merciful side of God.. These seeming two polar opposite sides of God are really just opposite sides of the same coin.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Wiccan Child. God is all-just And all-merciful. Punishment for the guilty, and extenuating circumstances for some guilty. God sees our hearts, He knows whether we are guilty by nature, or guilty by accident or unforeseen happenings. That is when we can expext mercy, If we ask for it. God is ever-just and ever-merciful, He knows our every thought and every wish. Our God is Love, pure and without fault. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
 
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Chesterton

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God is often described as all-just and all-merciful. But aren't these two qualities mutually exclusive?

To be just is to appropriately punish the guilty, and to not punish the innocent. To be merciful is to abstain from punishing the guilty.

I would tweak the above statements by including two ideas: extenuating circumstances, and much more importantly, the will of the guilty party. Regarding the second idea, the will: imagine two theives who are both convicted of stealing the same amount of money, for the same reason. One stands before the Judge and says "To hell with you. I did nothing wrong. I care not a whit for you or your ideas of right and wrong. I wanted something and I took it. (Basically saying): Existence is about me." The other repents. He says "I know what I did was wrong. I agree with your standards and laws, and agree they are good, even though I broke them (and might even break them in the future). I'm sorry, and if you offer forgiveness, I accept it." Both men are equally guilty, but the second one may receive mercy, because he will receive mercy. Try as you might, you cannot give to a man what he will not have.

How, then, can a moral agent both punish the guilty and not punish the guilty? It seems like a violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction (an inviolable law if ever there was one).

I think you're sort of right, and one or the other must give way. Ever heard the expression "Love conquers all"? It's a Christian idea. God is not an emotionless arbiter. Ultimately, love will trump justice, but love must be requited.
 
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hlaltimus

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It's a perfectly good question, and there is an answer for the dilemma of God either being purely, vindictively just to the utter neglect of mercy, or His being merciful in such a way as not to violate His own justice, and there is way out in His being consistent in either case, as the Lord is not such a lawyer who succeeds in painting himself inextricably into any corner. He knows His own law well.

In the first case of God sentencing an unbelieving, impenitant and doomed sinner to eternal retribution without any mercy at all being offered, the object might be raised that such a judgment being devoid of mercy is a witness of God's being either unwilling or unable to exert mercy, but that would be a false conclusion for 2 reasons:

#1 God is not under any binding obligation to show mercy as mercy is an unmerited privilege and not an inherent legal right. When a proven murderer is punished for his crime...that is justice, but when one is pardoned...that is mercy because the very structure of mercy is not for one to receive what he deserved, but for one to receive what he did not deserve. So, if a sovereign were to withhold pardon from a known, proven murderer, he is well within his rights as mercy was never something that the convicted criminal ever did have a right to. God can condemn a sinner if He were so to wish, and not be accused of withholding mercy to him because God was never legally bound to in the first place...but,

#2 God also cannot be accused of being devoid of mercy in the just execution of any sinner, for the simple reason that He had already generously granted that sinner mercy, though the expenditure of His mercy was entirely in vain to the sinner's redemption. Mark this well: There are no little babies or small children in Hades, because God covers them all with the unsolicited and universal children's atonement, and this pardon of them is also mercy, as a little sinner doesn't have any inherent right to mercy any more than an old sinner does. So, when a sinner of adult status is sentenced to eternal punishment, none are ever prosecuted in that ghastly place for the sin's of either their conception, infancy, or childhood, because those sins were pardoned as a matter of grace by God unmeritoriously when they were at that age. This is one reason why the damned "weep" in Hades: Because they had been in possession of a salvation of pardon right in their very hands as children, but let it slip neglectingly through their fingers by not choosing while adults to voluntarily exercise faith in Christ the Redeemer.

In the second case of God showing mercy to any sinner, He is by that pardon not setting aside His justice in the least, as He is quite able to punish the guilty sentence of the sinner, (as it were,) to the fullest extent of His violated law, and yet pardon him at the same time! This seeming contradiction to all sanity and logic is where the salvation of Jehovah appears in all of it's grandeur, profound mystery, and beauty together. To fulfill the legal requirement of a sinner against them and yet pardon them mecifully at the same time, God uses the principle of legal union. When a penitant and believing sinner is pardoned, justified and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, this indwelling of God the Holy Spirit constitutes a spiritualized sort of marriage, where the believer and Christ are mystically and legally joined into union, which legal union passes the legal status of either one to the other, while not annihilating the personality or free will of either for that matter. It is an incomprehensible miracle indeed, as Christ assumes the guilty sentence of a believing sinner and absorbs his/her punishment within His past punishment, while the believer rejoices to discover that he or she has now legally become the possessor of Christ's acquired righteousness, which is both penal and preceptive. His past death is considered or reckoned to be their legal death, while His Earthly righteous life is likewise considered to now be their legal righteousness, or what is termed "justification". Because of the spiritual union in the joining of the estates of a believer with his or her Lord, the legal status of Him is declared to be, (or "justified",) ours, even though it was not originally ours. Neat deal...isn't it?

God is perfectly able to be thoroughly just in the pardon of any believing sinner, as He was just in the prosecuting of Christ His Son for our offenses, as we were foreseen in God's omniscience as being ultimately united to Him by faith. "Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world".
He might be "Just, and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus". Romans 3:26b
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I've been a Christian for almost forty years and I've never heard God described as all-merciful or all-just. The Bible doesn't describe Him this way, in any event. He is very merciful and perfectly just, but neither of these characteristics totally dominates who He is or exists to the exclusion of all His other attributes.
Surely 'perfectly just' is the same as 'all-just'?

Seems - but actually is not. That God does not cast you into Hell the moment you first sin is an act of His mercy. That God allows people to live their entire lives with their backs to Him, willfully defiant and disobedient toward Him, is a demonstration of His mercy. That God holds back the full consequences of a person's sin for a time, in the hope that doing so might encourage that person to repentance also shows God's mercy.
But God makes no effort to point out to the sinner that he is withholding the consequences. Just because you hold out on dropping a person off a cliff doesn't make you merciful. If you don't tell them that you're helping them, how can they know that they're doing anything wrong?

If you stop a rapist from being caught, surely that just encourages him? How is that mercy? How does that make the rapist repent?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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He gives mercy to those that truly ask for it.
Even impoverished countries crying out for relief from famine, drought, and disease? Christian parents praying for the survival of their terminally ill child? But I digress.

If God grants mercy to those who ask for it, how is he in any way just?

I think the problem lies with the definitions of both. As we better understand each (eg understanding Justice as restorative justice, not punative justice) the two begin to converge. I suggest that's where we need to be heading - towards that understanding where justice and mercy are two sides of the same coin.
Could you elaborate on the definitions? I'm at a loss as to how mercy and justice can be seen as the same thing.

God sees our hearts, He knows whether we are guilty by nature, or guilty by accident or unforeseen happenings. That is when we can expext mercy, If we ask for it. God is ever-just and ever-merciful, He knows our every thought and every wish. Our God is Love, pure and without fault.
So God's mercy extends only to those for whom their guilty is a matter of circumstance (and not innate evil)?

I would tweak the above statements by including two ideas: extenuating circumstances, and much more importantly, the will of the guilty party. Regarding the second idea, the will: imagine two theives who are both convicted of stealing the same amount of money, for the same reason. One stands before the Judge and says "To hell with you. I did nothing wrong. I care not a whit for you or your ideas of right and wrong. I wanted something and I took it. (Basically saying): Existence is about me." The other repents. He says "I know what I did was wrong. I agree with your standards and laws, and agree they are good, even though I broke them (and might even break them in the future). I'm sorry, and if you offer forgiveness, I accept it." Both men are equally guilty, but the second one may receive mercy, because he will receive mercy. Try as you might, you cannot give to a man what he will not have.
So God's mercy extends to those who acknowledge their guilty, yes? If so, how can we punish someone for something that they truly do not believe is immoral?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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GOD IS MERCIFUL in that He has abstained from punishing sinful human beings as their many, consistent, and grievous sins deserve.
I disagree that our finite crimes are worthy of infinite punishment, but I agree that this is merciful.

GOD IS JUST in that He placed our sins upon Jesus on the Cross and Jesus willingly suffered the penalty of sin in our place.
How is that just? Surely punishment is only just when placed on the guilty party, not a willing substitute?

ALL GLORY TO OUR JUST AND MERCIFUL GOD! May you stop playing word games and avail yourself of His Justice and Mercy while it remains available for the asking!
I'm just trying to figure out what you mean when you say God is both just and merciful. As far as I can tell, they are mutually exclusive qualities: does God punish or absolve the guilty?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Because Jesus was made the sacrifice for those of us who were "guilty" by excepting him as our savior. (That is how the "guilty" can escape punishment) for all of the rest of the guilty (Who do not know or refuse Jesus) are punished as guilty should be..
Why would God only allow believers to escape punishment? I find it neither merciful nor just to use such an arbitrary property as religion to determine who is punished; why not punish the wicked as they deserve? Why be merciful at all?

The Fact that we have been presented with a choice to sin or not, and Knowing that all sin no matter how small leads to Death, shows the "Just" side of the Lord.
But since God himself set the 'sin leads to death' system up in the first place, how can it be just to punish someone for an arbitrary crime?

Providing us with a way to have forgiveness for those sins if we choose to except it shows the all merciful side of God.. These seeming two polar opposite sides of God are really just opposite sides of the same coin.
I disagree: if God wanted to be merciful, he could simply absolve everyone of guilt without asking anything of them (and that includes faith in Jesus). It seems so unnecessarily complex to set up arbitrary system after arbitrary system; surely it would be both merciful and just to wipe the whole slate clean?
 
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Chesterton

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So God's mercy extends to those who acknowledge their guilty, yes? If so, how can we punish someone for something that they truly do not believe is immoral?

Maybe you can't but it answers the question of why Christianity thinks beliefs are important.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Maybe you can't but it answers the question of why Christianity thinks beliefs are important.
Actually, I was referring to moral relativity, but I guess that's a discussion in and of itself :p.
 
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suzybeezy

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Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child
God is often described as all-just and all-merciful. But aren't these two qualities mutually exclusive?


We cannot begin to comprehend God's ways - we do not have the mental capacity. But we can understand to some small degree if we think of it in the parent/child relationship. As a parent, if my child is disobedient, he is punished - this is just, but I can and do also at times extend mercy. I can do both. He does both.

As an adult (child of God) when I sin, there is a consequence (just). But God my father uses those situations as an opportunity to teach me and guides me to not continue that sin that will destroy me (mercy).

Even impoverished countries crying out for relief from famine, drought, and disease? Christian parents praying for the survival of their terminally ill child? But I digress.

I can relate - my youngest child was at one point on life support - and not expected to live. The doctors said "child shows no brain activity". I could have cried out WHY GOD! but as a Christian I have to trust that its in His hands and that all things work together for His purpose. Now fortunately my child lived and shows little effects from that time, (what I would call our own personal miracle), but I can understand why you may say then why not save all the hundred of other dying children in say Africa. Why show mercy to my child and not these others. I think I can best answer that by saying I don't know - but He does. Maybe my child was spared so I could share this experience with others, maybe the children of africa remain suffering cause we as a human race are to learn to help them out! I revert back to how I began this post by saying "We cannot begin to comprehend God's ways", but He is a just and merciful father.
 
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aiki

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Surely 'perfectly just' is the same as 'all-just'?

Is "perfectly chocolate" ice cream the same as "all-chocolate" ice cream? No. The former description speaks to the nature of the chocolate, the latter description to the nature of the ice cream. An ice cream's chocolate may be perfect without it being the sole characteristic of the ice cream. Such ice cream may also include vanilla, or mint, or strawberry. If I say, however, that an ice cream is all-chocolate, I immediately exclude it being strawberry, or mocha, or whatever. So, too, when I say, "God is perfectly just" I mean the nature of His justice is perfect, but when I say, "God is all-just" I mean He Himself is entirely and only just (which is not, actually, the case).

But God makes no effort to point out to the sinner that he is withholding the consequences.

No effort? What do you call the Bible, if not an effort on God's part to communicate His mercy to us?

Just because you hold out on dropping a person off a cliff doesn't make you merciful. If you don't tell them that you're helping them, how can they know that they're doing anything wrong?

See above.

If you stop a rapist from being caught, surely that just encourages him? How is that mercy? How does that make the rapist repent?

God doesn't necessarily withhold all the consequences of our sin from us. As I'm sure you're aware, rapists go to jail. Often, though, it those very consequences which propel us toward God. The Final, Irrevocable Judgment upon our sin, however, which is an eternity in Hell, God does forestall and warn us about; for, as the Bible tells us, "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Peace.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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We cannot begin to comprehend God's ways - we do not have the mental capacity. But we can understand to some small degree if we think of it in the parent/child relationship. As a parent, if my child is disobedient, he is punished - this is just, but I can and do also at times extend mercy. I can do both. He does both.

As an adult (child of God) when I sin, there is a consequence (just). But God my father uses those situations as an opportunity to teach me and guides me to not continue that sin that will destroy me (mercy).
But he still punishes you as you deserve, yes?

I can relate - my youngest child was at one point on life support - and not expected to live. The doctors said "child shows no brain activity". I could have cried out WHY GOD! but as a Christian I have to trust that its in His hands and that all things work together for His purpose. Now fortunately my child lived and shows little effects from that time, (what I would call our own personal miracle), but I can understand why you may say then why not save all the hundred of other dying children in say Africa. Why show mercy to my child and not these others. I think I can best answer that by saying I don't know - but He does. Maybe my child was spared so I could share this experience with others, maybe the children of africa remain suffering cause we as a human race are to learn to help them out! I revert back to how I began this post by saying "We cannot begin to comprehend God's ways", but He is a just and merciful father.
I personally cannot have that kind of faith. But then, each to their own :thumbsup:.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Is "perfectly chocolate" ice cream the same as "all-chocolate" ice cream? No. The former description speaks to the nature of the chocolate, the latter description to the nature of the ice cream. An ice cream's chocolate may be perfect without it being the sole characteristic of the ice cream. Such ice cream may also include vanilla, or mint, or strawberry. If I say, however, that an ice cream is all-chocolate, I immediately exclude it being strawberry, or mocha, or whatever. So, too, when I say, "God is perfectly just" I mean the nature of His justice is perfect, but when I say, "God is all-just" I mean He Himself is entirely and only just (which is not, actually, the case).
Fair enough. But my point still stands: how can he be perfectly just and perfectly merciful? The former implies he punishes people, while the latter implies he absolves them.

No effort? What do you call the Bible, if not an effort on God's part to communicate His mercy to us?
I call it one religious text amongst many, a collection of texts compiled over the a period of about 4000 years (the oral tradition of Bronze-age nomads, letters sent by early Christians, etc).

Not to mention the fact that the exact texts used in the Bible differs from tradition to tradition (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Protestants, etc, all compile different texts and call it 'the' Bible).

God doesn't necessarily withhold all the consequences of our sin from us. As I'm sure you're aware, rapists go to jail. Often, though, it those very consequences which propel us toward God. The Final, Irrevocable Judgment upon our sin, however, which is an eternity in Hell, God does forestall and warn us about; for, as the Bible tells us, "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
In what way does this warning come?
 
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DeaconDean

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Justice and mercy, hum...

"Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." -Psa. 85:10 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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newbeliever02072005

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Thread re-opened.

Only the OP of the thread may respond in this thread. If you have a non-christian icon, please refrain from posting. You may start a new thread of your own if you have any questions.

Thank you for your understanding


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