Juster on the dangers in the HR movement.

Torah Emunah · Oct 8, 2014

yonah_mishael said:
I absolutely agree with you that the immediate successor of Moses was Joshua. The mention of raising up "a prophet" like Moses was not referring only to Joshua, though. It was referring to the entire string of prophets - that there would always be "a prophet" operating among the people for as long as revelation was being given. The context speaks of "the prophet" that speaks falsely in the name of YHWH. We should not understand that to refer to one person any more than we should take the one who speaks truth to refer to one person.

I couldn't agree more.

Torah Emunah · Oct 8, 2014

Hoshiyya said:
So should we not listen to Ezra?
Since he was not the IMMEDIATE successor of Moshe ?

That is not what I said. Of course we should should listen to the other prophets that HaShem has chosen to speak through.

Hoshiyya said:
Obviously the song remains the same. Even if Yehoshwa is the one being referred to, so what?

So what? The proper interpretation of Torah is a big deal.

Hoshiyya said:
We still need to listen to the Word of Hashem, whether it comes from Moshe's immediate successor or later prophets / leaders / kings.

I agree.

Hoshiyya · Oct 9, 2014

Torah Emunah said:
So what? The proper interpretation of Torah is a big deal.

My post was one whole. No point replying to the individual sentences.
I am saying that the conclusion is the same.

Dig4truth · Oct 10, 2014

I find that it is nothing new that Gentiles desire to join Israel and become a part of God's people. It was done in the Torah.

Num 15:15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the Lord.

I notice that it is the same Torah that they live by as well. Obviously they do not become Jewish, it isn't about genetics but rather a national and spiritual identity.

I find that it was always God's plan to accept anyone who would enter into His Covenant relationship with His people, His Anointed and His teachings.

Dig4truth · Oct 10, 2014

Double post, sorry.

Gxg (G²) · Oct 19, 2014

Gxg (G²);66370889 said:
C
For more, one can go here to the following:

5 Reasons Why It Matters How Christians Talk About Jews | Think Hebrew

Additionally, there's also the work of Prof. Daniel Boyarin and Prof. Gabriele Boccaccini on the subject - as seen here in the following:

Two Pharisees: Flavius Josephus and Paul the Apostle (Prof. Daniel Boyarin) - YouTube

Forgot to add these earlier, as it's by Daniel Boyarin on the ways that it was not non-Jewish to believe the Messiah was Divine (even though it's also not odd to consider Yeshua kept Kosher):

??????? ??????. ????? ???????? ?????? / Daniel Boyarin. Jesus Kept Kosher - YouTube

CT - Daniel Boyarin - Part 1 - YouTube

CT - Daniel Boyarin - Part 2 - YouTube

CT - Daniel Boyarin - Part 3 - YouTube

CT - Daniel Boyarin - Part 4 - YouTube

CT - Daniel Boyarin - Part 5 - Questions - YouTube

Additionally, there's the work of Dr. Henry Abramson - as seen in Paul of Tarsus Jewish Biography as History:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLSELg4TNPU

Gxg (G²) · Nov 25, 2014

AbbaLove said:
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This may also be of benefit to you:

Jewish Philosophy: David Solomon - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAQmHilfCDY

AbbaLove · Nov 26, 2014

Gxg (G²);66680069 said:
This may also be of benefit to you:

How long before see a HAVA NAGILA dance couple on Dancing With The Stars

HAVA NAGILA DANCE - YouTube

Or Maybe I Missed It

BukiRob · Nov 26, 2014

Steve Petersen said:
If Jesus came to abolish the Law, they are obliged to put him to death.

This is the Jesus that the Church has been trying to foist on Jews for 1800 years.

Yet this is the issue for Jews... the "church" is teaching Torah is no more....

It presents the Babylonian "messiah" and is the Babylon harlot causing those who partake of her to become drunken with her abominations. Many teach it is the RCC. The problem is that they do not see that all of her daughters came from Her and those daughters are just like Her.

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

It is when those who profess to be believers deny Torah that they prefer the deeds of darkness and to sit with Babylon the harlot.

But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, [a]haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who [c]enter into households and captivate [d]weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the [e]knowledge of the truth.

If one will not be lead by the word but instead declares no need of Torah because "I live under grace." then you are in essence "each doing according to what is right in his/her eyes." Every instance of this occurring in scripture is shown clearly, unmistakably by Adonai as evil. .... There is a way which seems right to a man but whose end is destruction

Truthfrees · Nov 26, 2014

I was reading in a Talmud commentary that "under the law" is an ancient Jewish term (idiom) for being "under judgment for sin", in a court of law.

IOW, "under law" doesn't mean "obeying Torah".

So if we look at Paul's words closer, he's speaking to those under judgment for sin, NOT those who obey Torah.

There's 3 ways to be under judgment for sin:
1. break Torah
2. try to earn righteousness with YHWH through keeping Torah
3. reject YHWH's grace in the first and new covenant for those who at some point break Torah

Replace every instance of "under the law" with "under judgment for sin", because SIN brings judgment, but grace through Yeshua brings freedom from judgment for sin.

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." - Romans 3:19

"For sin shall not [any longer] exert dominion over you, since now you are not under [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] Law [as slaves], but under grace [as subjects of Gods favor and mercy]. What then [are we to conclude]? Shall we sin because we live not under [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] Law but under Gods favor and mercy? Certainly not!" - Romans 6:14-15

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to men under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] Law, [I became] as one under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] Law, though not myself being under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] Law, that I might win those under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] Law." - 1 Corinthians 9:20

"Now before the faith came, we were perpetually guarded under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] Law, kept in custody in preparation for the faith that was destined to be revealed (unveiled, disclosed)." - Galatians 3:23

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] law, to redeem those who were under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] law, that we might receive the adoption as sons." - Galatians 4:4-5

"Tell me, you who are bent on being under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] Law, will you listen to what the Law [really] says?" - Galatians 4:21

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] law." - Galatians 5:18

"[In fact] under the [JUDGMENT FOR SIN] Law almost everything is purified by means of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is neither release from sin and its guilt nor the remission of the due and merited punishment for sins." - Hebrews 9:22

It takes careful slow reading, but can anyone else see what Paul is saying about the 3 ways to be under judgment for sin?

Can you see Paul isn't AT ALL saying "stop keeping Torah, because when you keep Torah you're rejecting YHWH's grace through Messiah"?

This erroneous ideology comes through people who misunderstand Jewish idioms.

No. He's talking about the condemnation people fall under when they FAIL to keep Torah, especially when they think their righteousness with YHWH depends on them keeping Torah. Grace in the first and the new covenant frees the sinner from the consequences of failing to keep Torah.

And then if you read each section in it's context, you can see Paul is talking about condemnation, guilty conscience, heavy burdens, etc associated with trying to earn justification rather than accepting YHWH's grace through Messiah.

The first covenant with Israel is filled with grace, and I think Paul is addressing a misunderstanding of SOME who overlook the grace of YHWH in the first covenant, and are now similarly rejecting YHWH's grace in the new covenant.

Truthfrees · Nov 26, 2014

I can't get edit to work on my last post.

To clarify: grace freeing a person from the consequences of failing to keep Torah, doesn't mean it's ok to stop trying to keep Torah.

It means we'll all fail at some point now and then, and in both the first and new covenant there is a grace provision (blood sacrifice) that sets us free from the consequences of sin (like judgment and being separated from YHWH because of our sin).

Lulav · Nov 26, 2014

BukiRob said:
Yet this is the issue for Jews... the "church" is teaching Torah is no more....

It presents the Babylonian "messiah" and is the Babylon harlot causing those who partake of her to become drunken with her abominations. Many teach it is the RCC. The problem is that they do not see that all of her daughters came from Her and those daughters are just like Her.

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

It is when those who profess to be believers deny Torah that they prefer the deeds of darkness and to sit with Babylon the harlot.

But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, [a]haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who [c]enter into households and captivate [d]weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the [e]knowledge of the truth.

If one will not be lead by the word but instead declares no need of Torah because "I live under grace." then you are in essence "each doing according to what is right in his/her eyes." Every instance of this occurring in scripture is shown clearly, unmistakably by Adonai as evil. .... There is a way which seems right to a man but whose end is destruction

Yet who taught that you live under grace?

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Click to expand...

seems to me to be the same preacher..................

BukiRob · Nov 29, 2014

Lulav said:
Yet who taught that you live under grace?

seems to me to be the same preacher..................

It is a teaching of error. I am free of the law of sin and death by faith redeemed trusting in the work of Messiah. Torah is learning how to love my fellow man and how to love G-d those that reject Torah reject Messiah.

Hoshiyya · Nov 29, 2014

BukiRob said:
It is a teaching of error. I am free of the law of sin and death by faith redeemed trusting in the work of Messiah. Torah is learning how to love my fellow man and how to love G-d those that reject Torah reject Messiah.

" those that reject Torah reject Messiah"

Amen !

yonah_mishael · Nov 29, 2014

Hoshiyya said:
" those that reject Torah reject Messiah"

Amen !

Very interesting thought. Can someone believe in Jesus (whom you call Messiah) while rejecting the Torah? I believe they can. That is, they believe that the Torah predicted the arrival and work of the Messiah, but once such work was accomplished, the Torah itself as a way of life became obsolete. I don't think that their belief is in some way inconsistent with their assumptions.

One would assert the converse, too: "Those who reject the Messiah reject the Torah," and then you would claim that Orthodox Jews - who reject Jesus - by implication reject the Torah, by the claim that the Torah speaks of Jesus' coming and work.

I don't think it's generally useful to make statements like either of these. It just seems exclusionary.

Hoshiyya · Nov 29, 2014

yonah_mishael said:
Very interesting thought. Can someone believe in Jesus (whom you call Messiah) while rejecting the Torah? I believe they can. That is, they believe that the Torah predicted the arrival and work of the Messiah, but once such work was accomplished, the Torah itself as a way of life became obsolete. I don't think that their belief is in some way inconsistent with their assumptions.

One would assert the converse, too: "Those who reject the Messiah reject the Torah," and then you would claim that Orthodox Jews - who reject Jesus - by implication reject the Torah, by the claim that the Torah speaks of Jesus' coming and work.

I don't think it's generally useful to make statements like either of these. It just seems exclusionary.

Look, you can believe in Muhammed and eat swine. The question is, does it reflect his true teaching or not.

My statement is "exclusionary" and necessarily so, because I am commenting on a specific issue. You can't please all the people all the time.

rick357 · Nov 29, 2014

yonah_mishael said:
Very interesting thought. Can someone believe in Jesus (whom you call Messiah) while rejecting the Torah? I believe they can. That is, they believe that the Torah predicted the arrival and work of the Messiah, but once such work was accomplished, the Torah itself as a way of life became obsolete. I don't think that their belief is in some way inconsistent with their assumptions.

One would assert the converse, too: "Those who reject the Messiah reject the Torah," and then you would claim that Orthodox Jews - who reject Jesus - by implication reject the Torah, by the claim that the Torah speaks of Jesus' coming and work.

I don't think it's generally useful to make statements like either of these. It just seems exclusionary.

If YHWH says his people are destroyed when they lack seeing ...the precept can not be undone by compassion.
For the believer who is decieved that they have no need of the written...they are left to paw at Messiah not knowing that everything about this living way has been given.
For the one who loves and cherishes the written he has before him everything that can be known of life except the living.
For by Messiah we have recieved life...and when we loose our life we find YHWH's life shared in us and come to know him....for who knows a man but the spirit of a man.
And yet if the mind is not renewed by or conformed to Torah we find ourselves fighting his ways because they are foriegn to us.
Kindness and encouragement should always mark our communication but not acceptance of a way that can not have fulfillment.
One may say I have bread and no need of your wine...the other I have wine and need no bread....both are wrong for both the wine and the bread are needed for fellowship in fullness.

Meowzltov · Nov 29, 2014

Yet this is the issue for Jews... the "church" is teaching Torah is no more....

It presents the Babylonian "messiah" and is the Babylon harlot causing those who partake of her to become drunken with her abominations. Many teach it is the RCC. The problem is that they do not see that all of her daughters came from Her and those daughters are just like Her.

And yet I've been in messianic congregations that teach that messianic jews are no longer under the law. So I don't think it's just the churches.

By and large I think churches are good, despite areas of concern. I'm downright tired of messianics picking on the catholic church. It just goes to show how PROTESTANT most messianics are.

ContraMundum · Nov 30, 2014

Open Heart said:
And yet I've been in messianic congregations that teach that messianic jews are no longer under the law. So I don't think it's just the churches.

By and large I think churches are good, despite areas of concern. I'm downright tired of messianics picking on the catholic church. It just goes to show how PROTESTANT most messianics are.

Yep.

Hoshiyya · Nov 30, 2014

ContraMundum said:
Yep.

Indeed.

I actually think Catholicism is closer to the truth than Protestantism, even though more MJ converts come from Protestant background than Catholic.

It is actually quite sad how tied up the MJ's and the OJ Ashkenazim are with the (North European Protestant) culture/way of the Western world.

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