Just when I was starting to like Christianity...

[whitestar]

Research into how Africa was BEFORE Europeans interrupted.



It was 'white Christians' that had started the whole thing! So don't try that one with me! Slavery in America was abolished because of the civil more, they meant more soldiers. Not everything is Black and White.



Ignoring the effects? How can I ignore the effects? Most of this world has been effected by it's followers!


See, it's posts like this that try and deny the atrocities this religion has done!

You honestly think that slaverly was stopped so they could have more soilders to fight in the civil war? You need to read your history...the civil war happened BECAUSE of slaverly!

It doesn't sound like to me from your first post that you were really 'starting to like Christianty'...this sounds more like an attack on it...especially the way you worded it and all the yelling from you since then.

And in spite of what some say on here, the OT IS very important...Jesus said He came to fulfille the law, not get rid of it. Second, because God addresses how slaves are to be treated (as if they were relatives of the family), doesn't mean He approved of someone having slaves...but that only He knew people throughout the world would have slaves. Why else would He say things like...Thou Shall Not kill...if He didn't know we would try to kill each other? If a slave is treated how the Lord says they should be in the OT, it would be as if they were apart of the family...not mistreated or abused at all. That passage you quoted in your orginal thread even says they should inherite money, belongings, etc just like the rest of the family when the man dies...

Now the slaves you are thinking of that didn't come work in a true Christian home or Christian at all, were beated, raped and abused! Those people were obviously not following the bible OT or NT at all actually.

By the way for those that think dismissing the OT is ok...Jesus continuely refers to the OT in the NT....if you don't know the OT you won't know what He is talking about and you won't understand propheties either...especially Revelation...we need all the bible, even if we are no longer under the law in the OT...to fully understand the word of God.

God bless

 

[Eltanile]

In Exodus 21: 20 it says "A man might beat his male or female slave with a stick. And then the slave might die on the spot. Then the owner must be punished."

This refers to one of the ten commandments "Thou shalt not kill."

Reading on in Exodus 21: 21, "But the slave might get well after a day or two. Then that owner will not be punished since the slave belong to him."

And in Exodus 21: 24, "eye for eye, tooth for tooth. It is also hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound and bruise for bruise."

The owners of the slaves would punish the slaves because of something they did (like, you'd probably get fired as a construction worker if you blew the place up, wouldn't you?). You'd punish a slave for not working hard enough, or disobeying, or something against the Bible. I'm not sure, others here might clarify this, but this is probably reffering to enslaved enemies. If you had a conquered enemy as a slave, you'd want him/her to go by your rules (the Bibles rules), and for him/her to work his best.

In Leviticus 25: 39-40 "Someone from your country might become very poor. He might even sell himself as a slave to you. If he does, you must not make him work like a slave. He will be like a hired worker. And he will be like a visitor with you until the year of Jubilee."

This means that a poor guy can become a slave until the year of Jubilee, for housing, and food. Think of it like this: My Grandpa, a retired pastor, would always have people coming to his house looking for work, and because he was the pastor they thought that he'd help them. Grandpa would always keep some logs or something unchopped in the back so that he would have work for them. After they'd chopped the wood, Grandpa and Grandma would feed them, give them something to drink, and a place to sleep for the night. Then they'd leave the next day.
In the same way, poor people would go to someone, and work for them in return for food, water, and shelter.

Also, regarding someone's post about homosexuality, Leviticus 20: 13 "A man might have secual relations with another man as a man does with a woman. If he does, these two men have done a hated sin. They must be put to death. They have brought it on themselves."
There was a different verse I remember regarding other unnatural sex and things like that, but I couldn't find them. Most questions I've found regarding the sexual sins that people are commiting around the world can be answered in Leviticus 20: 10 - 21.

I hope this answers a lot of questions.

(I started typing this before a few of the previous posts, so this also addresses a few already answered questions. And in Leviticus 20: 1 "The Lord said to Moses," and later on he talks about homosexuality, If he thinks homosexuality is okay, then why would he have said what's in Leviticus 20: 13? I haven't read the Bible much, but I do know that God never changes and that he speaks the truth ALL the time, and doesn't change his mind.)

 

[FireOfGod]

I read this



Try and defend that one

No wonder so many Christian nations enslaved the people of Africa

That would be called Old Covenant, dear. In my opinion, we, no one, deserves "slaves" in the sense that you are thinking. The Bible says that we are slaves to the ones we obey. So if we obey God, we are "slaves" to God. Which means we obey him and do what He tells us to. Who better than God to obey? The One who knows everything, who knows exactly what we want and need and has the perfect dicision and answer for us for every question we may have.

Everyone obeys someone... Even if they "obey" themselves.

Make sense?

 

[DeaconDean]

Listen people, slavery is a fact of history as well as today. People complain about the African race being sold into slavery, how about the Israelites who endured more slavery than anyone? Has anyone bothered to read Philemon? What about the asians who being sold into slavery to pay for their illegal passage into America? Anybody making a deal about this? I can't change the past, but I can do something about today!

 

[erin74]

I haven't even tried to read this entire thread.

But realise that biblical slavery is quite different to the slavery experienced in the US. The Israelites were slaves themselves to the Egyptians. Israelites were slaves to one another also. The slaves in their household were very much a part of their household.

Slavery in the bible is a little more like a cadetship is now. When you have a cadetship you are bound to work for the person providing the cadetship for x number of years. Your are obliged to do as they ask until such time as the debt is repaid. That was much like slavery. In return for a debt the slave was obliged to work for the person until that debt was repaid.

From what the NT says on slavery masters were to treat their slaves well, and christian slaves were to submit to their masters.

I don't think what was happening in the US was the same kind of slavery at all. Nor what has happened in Asia. Those people were not repaying a debt of any kind. They were simply kidnapped. They weren't even defeated in war - just stolen from their homeland. This is not an example of biblical slavery by any means.

Just remember when you read about slavery in the bible not to impose a modern grid of thinking that is inapplicable to the times. You must allow it to be read within it's own culture. In that culture slavery was widespread, across many (maybe even all?) nations.

 

[LyricalX]

My husband had been there a couple years ago. He found out how out of shape he was. What he found exciting was to be able to stand in the same place as Paul did when he preached to the people there.

Really?!

Wow, where abouts is that?

 

[LyricalX]

It doesn't !!!
Lets see what Jesus has to say:
Matthew 5:17-20 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

5:17-20

If Jesus did not come to abolish the law, does that mean all the Old Testament laws still apply to us today? In the Old Testament, there were three categories of law: ceremonial, civil, and moral.

(1) The ceremonial law related specifically to Israel's worship (see Leviticus 1 :2,3, for example). Its primary purpose was to point forward to Jesus Christ; these laws, therefore, were no longer necessary after Jesus' death and resurrection. While we are no longer bound by ceremonial laws, the principles behind them - to worship and love a holy God - still apply. Jesus was often accused by the Pharisees of violating ceremonial law

(2) The civil law applied to daily living in Israel (see Deuteronomy24:10, 11, for example) Because modern society and culture are so radically different from that time and setting, all of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. But the principles behind the commands are timeless and should guide our conduct. Jesus demonstrated these principles by example.

(3) The moral law (such as the Ten Commandments) is the di, rect command of God, and it requires strict obedience (see Exodus 20:13,Jor example).The moral law reveals the nature and will of God, and it still applies today. Jesus obeyed the moral law completely.

Commentary from NIV Life Application Study Bible.


I believe the civil law answers your original question.
In Christ,
Glen

Thank you very much for that post!

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

If one reads the Old Testament, one finds that very nearly all of those laws exist as commandments between God and only one people: the children, the descendants, of the man named Jacob and Israel. I am of Christ now, and so although I was once under those laws (my flesh being descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), I am not any longer, because as the Lord said:

Matthew 23:9 And call no one your father on earth, for One is your Father, the One in Heaven.

Thus, I follow Jesus. His commandments. All of them. Excepting, of course, when I sin, because He has not taken away all of my sin, yet.

 

[revmalone]

Where does it say in the Bible

'Forget all that, do this now'

Why bother having the Old Testament?

13. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Your never going to go forward in this life with your head turned around backwards friend, according to your banner your only 17 so to me it explains your view of this whole thing. No matter what you try to say want justify your dead heart, It doesn't matter if you believe us or not, your going to face God one day either face him as your savior, or your Judge.

All of this sounds like your a religious bigot. Your only tring to justify your hateful heart, and bad spirit.

If there is no truth to you then why are you asking us to show you something your not going to even try and listen to anyway. I think if your old enough to decide if you would rather burn in fire forever or be forgivin and be in heaven. But you will fine out the truth for your self a few second after your dead.

Think about it friend, I'm not wasting any more of Gods time to teach someone who is forever lost, that is if you choose that way for your self.

Meet Christ as your savior before he is met as Judge.
Good luck

 

[LyricalX]

If you read on

Christianity is an option to me

But I can't follow it without questioning it

£amb said it is me putting out 'hurdles'

But I see it as, if I conquer these hurdles

My goal will be even better

You feel better after climbing a mountain than walking down the shop

 

[intricatic]

Where does it say in the Bible

'Forget all that, do this now'

Why bother having the Old Testament?

Christ was the atonement, the New Testament, the New Covenant. He did not come to replace the Old Covenant, but to fulfill it. In other words, the OT is not pertinent anymore as a literal law, but it has been fulfilled by the coming of Christ. We are no longer slaves to it, but we can learn from it.

 

[whitestar]

If you read on

Christianity is an option to me

But I can't follow it without questioning it

£amb said it is me putting out 'hurdles'

But I see it as, if I conquer these hurdles

My goal will be even better

You feel better after climbing a mountain than walking down the shop

There is nothing wrong with asking questions...in fact we are suppose too!! The bible says always be prephared to answer about the hope within us...now how can you do that if you don't know anything? I honestly don't know where people get the idea we are suppose to have blind faith or follow blindly...that just isn't in the bible. God wants us to know Him, and how can we if we never question anything?

That is why I enjoy Christianity so much...I am constantly learning...

As far as slavery happening today...oh yea it does and its much more vile then ever before. Children are taken from their homes with the promise the parents will get alot of money (which they never get) they are tied to machine and forced to work 14 plus hours a day...they sleep right there too...they are beaten if they refuse of slow down. And worse....children in so many countries overseas are being sold BY their parents as sex slaves. If they aren't sold they are stolen...and forced into the worse kind of slavery their is. Opah recently had a show on what is going on with these sex slaves. They think that high school girl that was kidnapped while on a trip to that island with her class, isn't dead at all, but hidden away to be used as a sex slave...the stories told of the people that go in and rescue these children and teenagers are stories from hell...

And many of these children, and women are being shipped to the US to be used as sex slaves by people here!! The demand is high...

Evil abounds..

 

[£amb]

Really?!

Wow, where abouts is that?

He was in Athens and the name of the hill was called Mars Hill. It's down from the Parthenon (sp?). Also, my husband was in Ephesus (Turkey) and visited the area where a riot broke out and I think Paul and some other disciples were there. That story is in the bible...I think Acts. I can't quite remember where though.

 

[BarbB]

He was in Athens and the name of the hill was called Mars Hill. It's down from the Parthenon (sp?). Also, my husband was in Ephesus (Turkey) and visited the area where a riot broke out and I think Paul and some other disciples were there. That story is in the bible...I think Acts. I can't quite remember where though.

Very good!

Acts 17:23] For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

 

[loriersea]

As far as slavery happening today...oh yea it does and its much more vile then ever before.

If you study the history of slavery in America, I think you would probably amend that statement. Slavery is vile whenever it occurs. The things that were done to slaves in the United States when slavery was legal were vile. There is simply no factual basis for arguing that slavery today is any more vile, and that is only done to appease the American conscience, which should NOT be appeased. What was done to African-American slaves was absolutely reprehensible, and just as vile as anything that is happening today.

 

[The Virginian]

I read this



Try and defend that one

No wonder so many Christian nations enslaved the people of Africa

If my memory serves me correctly, there hasn't been a "Christian nation" for quite a few centuries (Monarchs and Emperors aside), even though various ones of the populace may refer to themselves as a Christian nation.
As has been so ably pointed out to you, the reason for the Incarnation -among other things- was for the express purpose of revealing to the people what their One True God was actually like! Syncrestic religions abounded at the time of Jesus' birth; Why else would Jesus make the statement in His teachings, "...you have heard..., but I say unto you...."
Anyone, repeat ANYONE can, whenever they wish to for their own purposes, distort, and or deny Holy Scripture. They also, according to their abilities, can argue circles apologetically around their opponents! It comes down to this in the end: What is my response bow: ) mad: ) to Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God!

"Lord, remember me when
thou comest into Thy kingdom."

 

[crosspointe]

Wow! What a thread! I imagine some Seekers are a little dismayed by all of the different views among Christians.

Regarding slavery, I think it is important to realize and admit that slavery existed in the Old Testament and God gave specific instructions about the treatment of slaves. Two important points:

1) God never condoned slavery. God did not command the people to go out and buy slaves any old time they wanted. There were cases when the people of God conquered a nation and took slaves but that is a little different. Someone else already pointed out that this type of slavery was both common and 'dignified.' A man could work off this kind of slavery and come out with a good reputation, a family, possibly even a home and property. Never did God command or condone the idea of the 'slave market' that we saw in America.

2) God commanded the people for a reason. One of the neat things to realize is that when God gave commands to His people, He did so for a reason. His reason for most of thee commands was that He wanted His people to be different from other people and, in most respects, better. God gave His people moral instructions regarding slavery so that their treatment of slaves would be 'more ethical' than the next nation. Of course, we have a very difficult time with the idea of ethical slavery, and I think rightly so. However, we have not grown up in a culture where slavery was incredibly widespread and accepted either.

A hugely important thing to understand is the reason why God said things. In the Old Testament, God's message was one of "This is the Law, obey it." Of course, no one could actually do that since we all tend to screw up every now and again. God changed His message (the Christians will have to pardon my imprecise wording) with the coming of Jesus. God's message became "Let me put my Law in your hearts along with my Spirit so that we can be close again." We are not somehow beyond having to do what God says now. We have more help in the Holy Spirit, who comes to reside in us but we are still commanded to be obedient to God's laws.

Well, I could keep on but I will stop. This one hit a nerve for some reason.

 

[elijah115]

I read this



Try and defend that one

No wonder so many Christian nations enslaved the people of Africa

I am an african christian, and I can see that this post is just meant to spark controversy. if you were really interested in Christianity why not just Go to websites that answer all these questions like carm.org (i think it is).

 

[mysparrow]

so Christians don't follow anything in the Old Testament?

Back when Europe was enslaving African

They would use that to make out what they were doing is fine

People seeking to do evil will often twist the word to make it what they want to , in order to justify sin. Doesnt make it right, or that God is pleased.

 

[BarbB]

Europe didn't enslave Africa. Islam did - Remember that Joseph's brothers sold him to Ishmaelite slave traders like about 2000 BC. They were trading in slaves as a business from then until today.