Just when I thought I had it.

[Fin1234]

I am very confused. I fear hell in some aspects but don't believe in dogma. I follow the teachings of the bible but don't believe in black and white morality. For instance I believe murder is separate from killing and that sex before marriage is ok when approached ethically.

I have had so many different beliefs. I'm confused and I just want to stop searching. I love god and jesus but I currently hate what he is doing to me. He has created so many different religons and "holy texts" it's just not clear. I gave a prayer; I was in a field almost shouting my words to god, nearly in tears. It's been about an hour and nothing new has entered.

He has given me a strong theological mind but more and more it is becoming a curse rather than a blessing. I want to go back to being a happy agnostic/bhuddist. But that would deny myself my ability to think.

I just don't know what god wants from me, I was raised at an early age in somewhat of a christian school and more and more people portray god as a vengeful god, (which I was not taught) who created hell knowing the masses would go there.

Maybe tonight I will get an answer from god. I don't even know why I'm typing this! Am I looking for sympathy knowledge or just an easy way out?

Normally this post would be filled with swears and curses but I can see this is not the place. So you'll forgive me if the nature or content of this post seems un natural.

It's ridiculous! why are there so many different religous paths if all of them are claiming to be the one and only way to win and telling me every other way is wrong. From what I've seen the christian based religons are the worst for this.

 

[Adstar]

If you believe there is one God. Then you should also believe He has one desire for all humanity. If God is one then God has one will towards us. Therefore the Christian claim that there is only one way to eternity with God is in alignment with this logic.

You are set upon a path of seeking and no matter how frustrating it gets you will have no peace in your heart if you just give up and just fall back into agnostic and buddhist beliefs.

As for not swearing. you do not need to swear to express the frustration you are feeling, and you have expressed yourself very well without swearing here. You should reassess what you think as being natural and unnatural.

I will disagree with you in your thinking that God has created so many different religions. satan has created a lot of different religions to sow confusion and to build as many different paths to nowhere as he can, he is not called the great deceiver for nothing.

Also if there is one God, we have to believe that His will is perfect and that His guidance to us is good guidance, therefore we must submit to His guidance out of respect for His perfection and also as a sign of our trust / faith in Him. So therefore one may have their own views on things like killing and murder and pre marital sex But if one trusts in the guidance of God then one will follow that guidance even when they do not understand the reasoning behind that guidance.

God gives wisdom to those who ask but if one does not believe God or if one has no trust then how can God give wisdom to that person?

In the search for God one must be meek towards God. When it comes to the wisdom of God those who listen more will learn more.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Fin1234]

So satan created all the different religons?

NO!!

satan created satanism end story. Plus chrsitians get visions so do satanists and muslims and hindu's and bhuddists and jews and pagans and JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER RELIGON IN THE WORLD.

Is it not likely nay probable that god IS EVERY religon. I mean it's a pluasible thought that the god who inspired bhudda was the same who sent down jesus or instructed mohammmed. When you imagine hell do you see bhudda burning and screaming as he is tortured. WELL I DON'T.

To me god is not so vain that he hates those who do not know better.

I mean there is so much death, racism, torture and war done in the name of religon. NO WONDER PEOPLE TURN AWAY FROM GOD. I would if I was black and being told that god never will accept me. I wouldn't give a crap if they misinterpretted the bible god should of stepped in to stop the hurt being done in his name.

Someone tell me how god has helped us in the past 1000 years!

Look at it statistically christians are just as rich as aetheists they get the same number of mental illnesses as aethiests they get killed in accidents as much as aethiests they have the same cancer survival rate as aethiests!!! God has done almost nothing for me so far!! He hasn't even helped me see the right religon.

People go on and on about near death experience well t's been proven that your mind can pick up subconsience thoughts and after a large shock to the system like an NDE can make up memories of things that never even happened!!

Is it not likely that god represents everygod in the universe that he is everything!!

LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE WILL YOU. The bible was written by man (it came to us through an inperfect being) therefore it is OUR INTERPRETATION which to an extent is quite possibly wrong! Look at it the idea of hold no other god before me. THAT ISN'T AN ALL LOVING GOD THAT IS A KING FROM 200BC. That is how we veiwed god in 200bc a king not a father like jesus described.

And "those that listen more learn more" sir sorry to sound rude but I have met plently of christians who have spent thier days listening and are so blindly wrapped in their faith they have gone beyond stupid.


I love jesus but I hate the dogma of what people call "god"

"God" is very quickly losing my soul and I hold his church personnally responsible!!!!!

Maybe I will retire to agnostic bhuddism and if I am wrong then hopefully god can forgive me as "he who believes in me shall be saved"

 

[Digit]

I am very confused. I fear hell in some aspects but don't believe in dogma. I follow the teachings of the bible but don't believe in black and white morality. For instance I believe murder is separate from killing and that sex before marriage is ok when approached ethically.

I have had so many different beliefs. I'm confused and I just want to stop searching. I love god and jesus but I currently hate what he is doing to me. He has created so many different religons and "holy texts" it's just not clear. I gave a prayer; I was in a field almost shouting my words to god, nearly in tears. It's been about an hour and nothing new has entered.

He has given me a strong theological mind but more and more it is becoming a curse rather than a blessing. I want to go back to being a happy agnostic/bhuddist. But that would deny myself my ability to think.

I just don't know what god wants from me, I was raised at an early age in somewhat of a christian school and more and more people portray god as a vengeful god, (which I was not taught) who created hell knowing the masses would go there.

Maybe tonight I will get an answer from god. I don't even know why I'm typing this! Am I looking for sympathy knowledge or just an easy way out?

Normally this post would be filled with swears and curses but I can see this is not the place. So you'll forgive me if the nature or content of this post seems un natural.

It's ridiculous! why are there so many different religous paths if all of them are claiming to be the one and only way to win and telling me every other way is wrong. From what I've seen the christian based religons are the worst for this.

Heya Fin,

I think the problem you are having is that you are picking and choosing and trying to make your own religion. It's not like that. We have to take Christianity in totality, or not at all.

There I things I believed in which were wrong, and I have come to understand why, and there are things which I believed were right, which were actually good, and I've come to understand why. Religion will change you, as a person, I don't think there is a person on this Earth that stayed exactly as they were, when they came to Christ.

If you don't understand the risks of pre-marital sex, not just on the partners involved, but also the possible unborn child, then it will only take some short reading to reveal that. The morality in the Bible is pretty clear cut, and it works. The problem with man-made morality, is that it is fickle, and it's this nature of it which causes the problems, when in one instance, killing is ok like in abortions, and yet in another it is not as in murder. I fail to see the line between the two myself, but hey, I'm a Christian so I guess that explains it.

I think things will become much easier when you adopt a set of beliefs fully, instead of mixing and matching. That's just my two cents.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[Fin1234]

UGH! your lack of thought is disgusting!!!!!!

You all seem tohave this idea of cookie cutter religon. Gods relationship is a special bond; not something given to you becuase you met the standard requirements!!!!!


GOD ISN'T A QUALITY CONTROL MACHINE IN A FACTORY!!

Geez, I resign, I return to agnostic buhddism. The only feelings I had for YOUR type of christianity were that from my survival instinct trying to avoid pain!!

GOD'S PLAN IS FAR GREATER THAN SIMPLY FOLLOWING RULES AND MEETING THE REQUIREMENTS BY JUMPING THROUGH HOOPS!!!

Ugh I should not be angry with you. You have a right to believe what you want if it makes you spiritually happy. I have evidence that maybe someday I will reveal to this forum which disproves the un-enlightened process of black and white morality.

Go back and read my second post.

OK I understand you: You are in a sense right. Some people are blatantly too STUPID to understand how to moraly deal with sex or killing.

But check your old testament... *read some old testament*

Yeah thought so.. ..seems if your bible is EXACTLY right. Then god seems to be a bit of a hypocrite.

It's not called mixing religons it's called believing in something YOU think is real. Of coure people change when they meet religon thats the whole point!! But it's a simple fact Regular Repitition breeds Replication. If some preaches to you for three years runnnig you will believe what you were told three years running. I could do the same to you and teach you to do nothing but disbelieve christianity and kill!! ( I can go into this theory more deeply if you wish as this also is part of my arument against black and white morality.)


So far I think god wants me to be agnostic/bhuddist.

The only thing I have gotten from the christianity I see here.

Is people telling me I am wrong, and that it is all or nothing with god. Well to be honest if that is what god is really like and he is infact a cruel merciless lord who is so vain you can't win anyother way than believing in him; no matter how spiritually good you are. Then tell your god I say NOTHING.

Christianity is not the way for me to aknowlegde god. And I think he understands that. And I think gods message is about unconditional love rather than whether their path is righteous.

I am sorry for the mood I am in, I will explain myself better in another thread once I am thinking clearer.

If you don't understand what I am getting at then maybe you will understand the significance in this haiku I wrote. Regarding the indifference of religous love.

Flowers


Flowers in the field.
All will blossom differently.
All are beautifull.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

So satan created all the different religons?

NO!!

satan created satanism end story. Plus chrsitians get visions so do satanists and muslims and hindu's and bhuddists and jews and pagans and JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER RELIGON IN THE WORLD.

Is it not likely nay probable that god IS EVERY religon. I mean it's a pluasible thought that the god who inspired bhudda was the same who sent down jesus or instructed mohammmed. When you imagine hell do you see bhudda burning and screaming as he is tortured. WELL I DON'T.

To me god is not so vain that he hates those who do not know better.

I mean there is so much death, racism, torture and war done in the name of religon. NO WONDER PEOPLE TURN AWAY FROM GOD. I would if I was black and being told that god never will accept me. I wouldn't give a crap if they misinterpretted the bible god should of stepped in to stop the hurt being done in his name.

Someone tell me how god has helped us in the past 1000 years!

Look at it statistically christians are just as rich as aetheists they get the same number of mental illnesses as aethiests they get killed in accidents as much as aethiests they have the same cancer survival rate as aethiests!!! God has done almost nothing for me so far!! He hasn't even helped me see the right religon.

People go on and on about near death experience well t's been proven that your mind can pick up subconsience thoughts and after a large shock to the system like an NDE can make up memories of things that never even happened!!

Is it not likely that god represents everygod in the universe that he is everything!!

LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE WILL YOU. The bible was written by man (it came to us through an inperfect being) therefore it is OUR INTERPRETATION which to an extent is quite possibly wrong! Look at it the idea of hold no other god before me. THAT ISN'T AN ALL LOVING GOD THAT IS A KING FROM 200BC. That is how we veiwed god in 200bc a king not a father like jesus described.

And "those that listen more learn more" sir sorry to sound rude but I have met plently of christians who have spent thier days listening and are so blindly wrapped in their faith they have gone beyond stupid.


I love jesus but I hate the dogma of what people call "god"

"God" is very quickly losing my soul and I hold his church personnally responsible!!!!!

Maybe I will retire to agnostic bhuddism and if I am wrong then hopefully god can forgive me as "he who believes in me shall be saved"

Copied and pasted the text. Responses are in italics.

Someone tell me how god has helped us in the past 1000 years! - I suppose it is a matter of interpretation. Not sure I would want to live in the time of 1007. No computers, no electricity, much shorter life expectancy, high illiteracy, no internet, all kinds of disease. But, getting to your question, I believe that if one were to ask a number of people who lived in the past 1,000 years, many of them would acknowledge an experience of receiving help from God. Whether it was actually God or not is a matter of personal faith and belief.

Look at it statistically christians are just as rich as aetheists they get the same number of mental illnesses as aethiests they get killed in accidents as much as aethiests they have the same cancer survival rate as aethiests!!! God has done almost nothing for me so far!! He hasn't even helped me see the right religon. You might find the book of Ecclesiastes (in the Hebrew Bible, near Psalms and Proverbs) an interesting read if you haven't read it. The author raises the same issue about the seeming injustice in the world. I would like to know your opinion of his conclusion about what is truly important.

LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE WILL YOU. The bible was written by man (it came to us through an inperfect being) therefore it is OUR INTERPRETATION which to an extent is quite possibly wrong! Look at it the idea of hold no other god before me. THAT ISN'T AN ALL LOVING GOD THAT IS A KING FROM 200BC. That is how we veiwed god in 200bc a king not a father like jesus described. Perhaps. Who do you understand to be the imperfect being that brought us the Bible? As you can see from this website, there are as many different interpretations as there are participants. Are you looking for the ultimate truth that is not subject to interpretation?

I love jesus but I hate the dogma of what people call "god" What do you love about Jesus? What part(s) of the dogma of what people call "god" do you hate? What parts of this dogma (if any) do you like?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[Fin1234]

I hate the concept of hell.

The imperfect being is man. As humans we are animals we adapt to our surroundings therefore we are influenced by that which surrounds us. If you live in a kindom governed by strict rules which no matter what the situation you break you will be punished. Then your interpretation of god will be influenced by the society you live in. Like I have said before Regular Repitition Breeds Replication. It's a basic law of sociology.

I love jesus in the sense of the way he preached love and good will to EVERYONE not just to those who were holy. In a sense I love christianity's love I hate it's attitude of holy righteousness.

It is my view that people should be tuaght to think moraly whether this is through a holy text or not. So that they can make a decision, rather than blindly sticking to rules.

And all those inventions which the inventors claimed to be "touched/inspired by god" It is possible that god helps them that way but.. look at how many great inventions were made by muslims, bhuddists or aethiests. God for the most part is how we describe or label the force or give reason to something we can't understand whether thats "How did I manage that" or "What happens when I die".


Thank you for your response sir. I didn't deserve it after my atrotious behavior in my last 2 posts.

Also I don't own a hebrew bible but I will look into it.

Peace brother.

 

[Digit]

Hey Fin,

So far what I am reading is that there are things you like and dislike about Christianity, and our attitude as Christians. Which is fine, as I think you and I share some things in common, especially in regards to Christian attitudes. There is a quotes someone has on the site here, that says something like, "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." from Ghandi. Oddly that is foremost in my mind recently, as in the Bible Jesus is a servant leader. He doesn't demand things from His people, He shows them the way of God by leading them through example. In our day to day lives Christians often get bogged down and interested in everyone elses sins, and that leaves little time to reflect on our own, which I would say leads us to the holy righteousness attitude that you dislike. The thing is, that Christianity, the religion, doesn't advocate this attitude. In addition, lets pick Hell as an example, the Biblical Hell is very different from what I think people have commonly accepted as the Hollywood Hell (fiery brimstone, demons torturing people, a place of eternal conscious torment and suffering).

It's worth taking time to separate the Christians from the message of the Bible. As anyone can wear the tag of Christian, yet precious few it seems uphold Christ's integrity, honesty and love.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[Fin1234]

I see what you mean digit.. But I still believe that you do not fully understand where I am coming from.

Our surroundings affect the way we function. Now this is a really dark example but..

1. Capture a man for days 1-4 lock him in his cell with no light or food or water (He will think he is going to die thier)

2. Days 5-7 Give him food and water but drug it so he continuly slumps into a stupor and all throughout the day shout abuse at him and tell him god hates him and/or isn't real. And soak him with a sprinklers to degrade him while playing canned laughter through the speakers. (this will break his soul down)

3. Days 7-10 Give him occasional electric shocks through metal plates in the floor. and continue the drugs and abuse from the before step. (This should break his soul down further.)

4. Days 10-20 Show slide shows of violence while giving him undrugged food and water and give complements to him.

5. Days 20-30 Shout abuse and sprinkler system while showing a slideshow of god and kindness. also the food you give him will be drugged.

6.7.8. alternate this process to further the idea of violence being good and god and kindness being bad.

9. Day 61 Fake a video of a man killing your victims family and show it to the victim then slide a knife through a slit in the victims cell and push the man in the video into the room. Then give the command kill. After the man is dead give the victim praise and un drugged food.

10. Day62 Now do the same but just put a random innocent man in his place and give the order kill.



You have now made someone kill another man for no reason other than to get food. Also the victim can't repent as he doesn't believe in christ anymore.

Is the victim to blame? No becuase the victem was quite clearly driven insane on day 35 or so. and turned into a completely mindless monster on day 60.


The bible and many christians would say that techniqally the victim is going to hell.

What do you think?

Peace and sorry for bringing such horrible thoughts into the conversation.

 

[Digit]

The bible and many christians would say that techniqally the victim is going to hell.

What do you think?

Peace and sorry for bringing such horrible thoughts into the conversation.

I think I understand what you are saying.

The world is frought with horrible things like this and yes, when we look at them in the light of black and white morality, as conceived by the human mind, it looks bad for the person who committed sin, regardless of any events leading up to that moment.

Howeer, the Bible says that our conscience is not the judge of sin. Meaning that we are to understand that God's Word is law, and not how we rationalise or judge things in our mind. There are many examples of this, and there are even examples of mental sin, where we think something, dwell on it and plot yet feel we are exonerated from it because it was all in our mind. For example, lying is always sinful, even if by lying we can do good somehow. In addition fantasising about another woman who is not your wife, is also sinful, even though nothing has happened and it is in your mind. I make a clear point to separate desire from fantasising here, as we all look at attractive women, and find them beautiful. That is not the same as pursuing those desires into the realms of fantasy and mental sin, in my himble opinion anyhow. That's just my little disclaimer, if you don't agree that's ok, I just don't want to freak out other Christians reading this.

The Bible also doesn't say a great deal about those who do not know God, and how they will be judged. I can't find the passage now, which is annoying me, but somewhere it says that through knowing of God and His laws, we are held accountable to our sins. Sin suddenly springs into life, which hints at a possibility of God judging those who do not know Him differently.

Anyhow, this is all related to your situation and to faith. At the end of the day, we may not know the exact nature of judgement and indeed, I would hope that no Christian will judge another man (like the man in your example), as it is not in our power to do so. We are told not to judge others, lest we be judged, and also not to judge others, as when we do we become guilty of our own judgement.

Hence my prior post, in saying that we often get very obsessed with other peoples' sins, and lose sight of our own. Instead of pointing fingers and saying, "You are not doing that right." we should instead set an example and live the right way, so that others may see.

If you are interested in reading more on these things. I would suggest reading Romans, which is where Paul goes and preaches to the Romans about Christ, and tackles a great many of these situations. In addition, remember that when an answer escapes you, try to have faith in Christ, and that He knows what is best. (Hebrews 11 talks of faith, and is one of my favourite books).

Lastly, as I said in my previous post, it's easy to judge people on their actions, and sometimes our actions speak very poorly, but at it's center Christianity is a relationship with God. No one else. So whilst it is easy to fall into the mindset of, "What about him?" it's best to focus on, "What about me?". To see how your relationship is going. Obviously I am talking as if you were a Christian, but even knowing you aren't, I hope you can see how you can progress in your search and understanding by ruling out a lot of what people say and do in the name of Christ and focussing on what He Himself said and did, as often the two are very different.

I will leave you with something else that helped me in my search, in separating the two:

1 Thessalonions 5:21
"Test everything. Hold on to the good."

Oh, and to answer your question (in a definite and concise way) I do not know what will happen to that man. I would pray for his soul, and I would submit the situation to God's Will, trusting that He is righteous and fair and favours no one over another.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[jiswangie]

hi!
i feel bad for you and your confusion. i can see your point on many issues. you do have a smart mind and you are definately thinking things through!
where is God? God is symbolizing himself in every beautiful thing that he has created. his spirit is living in everyone who loves him and shows his kindness. god does not create the bad things in the world, we do most of the time. other times it is inevitable and just happens. sometimes unthinkable things happen to good people and bad people. the things that christians have to hold on to is our faith in the promise that god gives us in his word (the bible) that he is with us always, even unto the end of the world. this is our longstanding comfort in times that we face trials beyond our control. God gives his children a peace in our hearts and minds that he is going to take care of our needs when his timing is perfect. his timing is rarely our timing, though. when his christians go through trials of sickness, death or worse, we are not afraid of death, because we know that god promises his children that when it is our time to go, he holds a special place in his heaven for each of his followers. this is how christians can stand up to adversity and not collapse under the pressure, although sometimes our own strength wants us to. (we rely on the strength and peace god offers us to give us strength when we cannot do it ourselves anymore).
please do not look at other christians as your only example of how to live...we can be week and sinful as anyone and we should not tell people otherwise. this would be hypocritical. if you want an example on how to live the way god wants us to, than follow jesus' example, he is the way, the truth, and the life and he is who we can pray to when we realize that we need god.....if we follow peoples' examples, we will most often be very dissapointed and frustrated because people are not made to be perfect...the lord created us to need him and when we realize that we do, it pleases him and he will always be with us.

people do turn away from god sometimes...a lot of times we get lost in our own fear of what we are going through and fail to trust god to help us through...he promises that he will, but we need to trust and believe that he will. he will come through for us always in his special timing, and never any earlier or later, but as natural people, we want what we want now and if we have to wait for him, we figure we may as well do it ourselves and that is when a lot of people choose to turn away from god. we get an "anything he can do, i can do better and faster" attitude. FEAR is a major reason people turn away. satan is also gods adversary and satan plants thoughts in our minds that we need to fight off. he makes us want to believe that god is not quick enough for us, and that we ourselves are fine without god. god wants to be with us, but he does not force himself on us...he wants it to be our choice to follow him. keep in mind that any thought coming from satan is usually negative and or hateful and eventually will cause trouble and massive confusion for us. this is how the devil operates. thoughts coming from the mind of god are pure, positive, caring, loving, patient, kind. we need to make a mindful decision to think one way or another and than we are held accountable by god eventually for this decision.

be careful not to overanalyze the bible and religion. it can be confusing and cause you to give up, feeling that you can not please anyone anyway, so why try?
if you need more insights on the bible and how to understand living our everyday life, i would suggest going to a department store and buying a book by author JOYCE MEYER or go online to joycemeyer.org for all of her materials..she is amazingly straight forward and pulls no punches when she describes things. i have found her to be an amazing help in my own life as a christian.

i hope i have helped you and i pray tonight for you as you continue to search for what is right in your life.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

I hate the concept of hell.

The imperfect being is man. As humans we are animals we adapt to our surroundings therefore we are influenced by that which surrounds us. If you live in a kindom governed by strict rules which no matter what the situation you break you will be punished. Then your interpretation of god will be influenced by the society you live in. Like I have said before Regular Repitition Breeds Replication. It's a basic law of sociology.

I love jesus in the sense of the way he preached love and good will to EVERYONE not just to those who were holy. In a sense I love christianity's love I hate it's attitude of holy righteousness.

It is my view that people should be tuaght to think moraly whether this is through a holy text or not. So that they can make a decision, rather than blindly sticking to rules.

And all those inventions which the inventors claimed to be "touched/inspired by god" It is possible that god helps them that way but.. look at how many great inventions were made by muslims, bhuddists or aethiests. God for the most part is how we describe or label the force or give reason to something we can't understand whether thats "How did I manage that" or "What happens when I die".


Thank you for your response sir. I didn't deserve it after my atrotious behavior in my last 2 posts.

Also I don't own a hebrew bible but I will look into it.

Peace brother.

As before, copied the text above and responses are in italics.

I hate the concept of hell. Well, you are not alone. Haven't met anyone yet who likes the concept. As with all matters of faith there are multiple interpretations. For some, it is a literal place of eternal separation from God and filled with torment. For others, it is a symbolic way of trying to describe a life without God. As you read through the Heberw Bible (aka the Old Testament) you will see that there is very little about an afterlife. People die and go to "the grave" which in Hebrew is "sheol" (SHEE ole) meaning the "abode of the dead". There is a theory that the concept of Hell was adopted from a Persian belief that the world was engaged in a titanic struggle between a force of good and a force of evil. Each abode had 7 levels. The theory goes that the Hebrews grafted this idea into their faith as it better explained some of the mysteries they were struggling with (what happens to us after death? If we are the chosen people, what are doing in Persia? Is heaven the same for each of us no matter how righteous? etc.). By the time of Jesus' ministry and the writing of the Gospels, this concept of Heaven and Hell had grown and become part of the Jewish belief system. This is why, for example, Paul talks about different levels of Heaven and why Hell is painted in such dark dramatic terms in Revelation. Granted, it is only a theory, but something to consider.

The imperfect being is man. As humans we are animals we adapt to our surroundings therefore we are influenced by that which surrounds us. If you live in a kindom governed by strict rules which no matter what the situation you break you will be punished. Then your interpretation of god will be influenced by the society you live in. Like I have said before Regular Repitition Breeds Replication. It's a basic law of sociology.
Agreed that man [and, yes, even woman ] is imperfect. From my understanding of life, we are the sum of our experiences combined with how we interpret those experiences (how one interprets life may be a matter of genetics. By that I mean I believe we are born with a basic temperment that is hard wired in us. We can understand it, we can control it, but I'm not sure we can change this basic temperment. Just a personal belief with no science to back it up). I agree one's interpretation of God will be influenced by the society one lives in. Am I correct in understanding that one is not governed by that belief? In other words, a person can change their understanding of God?

I love jesus in the sense of the way he preached love and good will to EVERYONE not just to those who were holy. In a sense I love christianity's love I hate it's attitude of holy righteousness. Sounds like you have the gist of Jesus' message nailed down. He also seemed to have a distinct disregard for religious hypocrites. Easier said than done on a consistent basis but an ideal worth shooting for.

It is my view that people should be tuaght to think moraly whether this is through a holy text or not. So that they can make a decision, rather than blindly sticking to rules. Agreed. I believe one is better off examining why they believe something or don't believe something rather than accepting a belief without any thought.

And all those inventions which the inventors claimed to be "touched/inspired by god" It is possible that god helps them that way but.. look at how many great inventions were made by muslims, bhuddists or aethiests. God for the most part is how we describe or label the force or give reason to something we can't understand whether thats "How did I manage that" or "What happens when I die". You may very well be right. God may be nothing more than a belief to explain the unexplainable. Personally, God is more than that for me, but it's a belief that I cannot prove emperically. On the other hand, I don't feel any need to prove it.

No need to apologize about your prior posts. I get the impression you have had a rather "rigid" upbringing and are struggling to break free.

Looking forward to more discussion, I remain,

OldChurchGuy

 

[tapero]

I hate the concept of hell.

The imperfect being is man. As humans we are animals we adapt to our surroundings therefore we are influenced by that which surrounds us. If you live in a kindom governed by strict rules which no matter what the situation you break you will be punished. Then your interpretation of god will be influenced by the society you live in. Like I have said before Regular Repitition Breeds Replication. It's a basic law of sociology.

I love jesus in the sense of the way he preached love and good will to EVERYONE not just to those who were holy. In a sense I love christianity's love I hate it's attitude of holy righteousness.

It is my view that people should be tuaght to think moraly whether this is through a holy text or not. So that they can make a decision, rather than blindly sticking to rules.

And all those inventions which the inventors claimed to be "touched/inspired by god" It is possible that god helps them that way but.. look at how many great inventions were made by muslims, bhuddists or aethiests. God for the most part is how we describe or label the force or give reason to something we can't understand whether thats "How did I manage that" or "What happens when I die".


Thank you for your response sir. I didn't deserve it after my atrotious behavior in my last 2 posts.

Also I don't own a hebrew bible but I will look into it.

Peace brother.

Hi, I want to comment on what you say of Christians.

Many to most people get ideas of who God (who Christians believe in) is from other sources than the bible. Also, same is true of the bible. People believe it says something or things, and does not.

But this is very common.

As to self righteousness all struggle with it, christian or non christian. If one looks at Christians and thinks this is what God is all about their view can be severely skewed, as Christians are sinners, and it all depends on who you've talked with.

Many times non christians say christians are self righteous because of what we believe. In no way are we taught in the bible to be so. We are taught to be humble, servant to all, and love, merciful, and much much more.

But what occurs is non christians may hear for example; christians don't drink. Not true, but just an example. Due to such they (if they drink-the non c) feels that then Christians are self righteous. It may even be cause a christian said you shouldn't this or that. A judgemental person in other words.

so you see opinions are formed based on 'people' who are sinners, and other things they hear of God, the bible, or Christians.

No two Christians are alike. And for each judgemental christian there are same with non Christians, so what I'm saying is one can't base what a Christian is when we are all individuals and differnt, same as non christians are all different and individuals.

The way to find what God is like, who He is, is to read about Him. With others saying what God is like, or God did this and so, without reading the bible, they don't know if it's true, nor even understand why certain things occured in the bible. Many answers are not given in the bible as well.

And if you find any christians telling you not to do this or that, they are way off...and many in fact teach such.

For we know, it's not what we do that saves us or gives us a relationship with Christ.

It is believing in Christ, that he died and was resurrected, and can come to Christ in many ways with much less knowledge, don't even need to realize the above. That's just one particular scripture.

Many just believe in Christ for particular reasons, and new Christians rarely to never have opened the bible yet, so they are in the process of learning.

Just as growing up with your parents; you learned of them more and more as you grow. Same is with God, comes by reading the bible, hearing sermons (if desire), fellowship with like minded Christians, etc.

So when you see judgemental christians saying don't do this or that. They are in grave error, for if a non Christian might think they are saved because they stopped doing a particular sin the christian told them they should stop, they are decieved.

Nothing we can do can save us, except to believe in Christ. We are not saved by what we do, and our walk begins after coming to Christ.

We are in no way animals. We are made in God's image and He created the animals and he created Adam and then Eve.

The holy righteousness you see again is prejudice you have towards christians, as due to your experince with some or one christian(s) you have said same of all and is far from the truth but is true of some and again, all christians are different as are non christians.

Focusing on Christ and not on Christians or others is the key, was taught that immediately when came to Christ. Pastor said, I am just a man, can commit sin anytime, never look at me, always keep your eyes on Christ, and to do so, need read the bible or listen to sermons or such. Is very important to verify what you hear as much false stuff out there as I started this post with, many believe things of Chrisitans, bible, God, etc, because of something they hear from someone or typical stories out there not true etc.

blessings,
tapero

 

[Fin1234]

we should instead set an example and live the right way, so that others may see.


Cheers!
Digit

Ok thats where you lost me. Right and wrong way. To me there is none as long as your are feeling spiritually happy.

Also I'm not asking you to judge the man on whether he was evil or not. What I'm saying is that your bible says that he is going to hell becuase he fits the criteria (a murderer who won't repent) Your telling me that god will think ethically when judgeing him. But really you can't have it both ways you either follow things ethically or stick to the rules no matter what the cost.

Also man is an animal. Some argue that we are sentient, that is why we are not an animal. Well, have you ever asked a gorilla if he was sentient? If you look at it they follow a moral code. They expell thiefs from thier community and they teach thier children against thieving. Man follows the same thinking process as an animal

e.g. Fox: where will I get my next meal
You: where will I get the money to pay for my next meal.

Fox: He looks like a fit mating partner who will give me strong off-spring.

You: She's good looking (subversely) My children will be like her (healthy)

We follow simple pyschological laws for survival like every other animal, which could lead to the conclusion if we are sentient. What about the animals?

And finnaly a request for the christians. This talk of sinners makes me sad. I look at it as: Everyone at some point is moraly wrong but we can't class them as evil becuase of it. I mean jesus went into a fury with a whip in a tax collectors office. Does that make him evil?

For me I can't see jesus as one of your so called "sinners".

 

[Digit]

Ok thats where you lost me. Right and wrong way. To me there is none as long as your are feeling spiritually happy.

What do you mean spiritually happy exactly?

Your problem seems to be judgment. What I am saying is that we are not called to judge. It is not our judgement. It is God's and we do not know the extent of it. We know that the Bible says murderers, idolators, fornicators and so on, will not inherit God's Kingdom. The labels that have been applied here are to specify clearly and outline the kind of people who will not make it to Heaven.

Now what you have done, is take a person and put them in a situation that causes us to sympathise with them, because the murder is clearly not their fault, and then condemn them to Hell to show how morally corrupt God is. But it's not like this. Because scripture also says we are not to judge people, that is not our domain, it is God's.

The bottom line, Fin, is that we simply do not know with any certainty how God will judge that man in your theoretical scenario. When we couple this with our faith, that asks us to believe in the best, hope for the best, hope for salvation and also we couple it with God's loving character, I cannot see how a situation arises where we know without doubt the outcome.

Also I'm not asking you to judge the man on whether he was evil or not. What I'm saying is that your bible says that he is going to hell becuase he fits the criteria (a murderer who won't repent)

It only says that if you take it at the most literal and wooden reading possible and omit all the passages about not judging others and so on.

Your telling me that god will think ethically when judgeing him.

I'm saying that I think we do not know, and we should not postulate.

But really you can't have it both ways you either follow things ethically or stick to the rules no matter what the cost.

The guidelines in the Bible for life, outline things that we should stray from, flee from. These are things that are clearly presented for the average person in the average situation. Why would scripture talk specifically about an abstract situation like the one you mentioned, what could it hope to teach us? Wouldn't it just raise more questions about more abstract situations? As by the mention of one, and the ommission of the rest, does that not cast doubt on their outcomes? I certainly think so.

Also man is an animal. Some argue that we are sentient, that is why we are not an animal. Well, have you ever asked a gorilla if he was sentient? If you look at it they follow a moral code. They expell thiefs from thier community and they teach thier children against thieving. Man follows the same thinking process as an animal.

Animals react on instinct, and we are created in God's image. That specifically means we are created to be spiritual, emotive, volative, relational beings. We are very similar to animals, yet scripture says they do not have the Holy Spirit and therein lies the difference. There is no Holy Spirit guiding them.

And finnaly a request for the christians. This talk of sinners makes me sad. I look at it as: Everyone at some point is moraly wrong but we can't class them as evil becuase of it. I mean jesus went into a fury with a whip in a tax collectors office. Does that make him evil?

No, that makes Him kinda cool in my opinion. Jesus never beat around the bush with the truth.

Sin is basically a term that means, 'miss the mark'. I think it was an archery term, but I'm not sure. It's used to highlight what God intended for us, and what we do instead. Christians are just as much sinners as other people. The only difference, is that with Christ, we have found a way to escape our bondage to sin.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[Fin1234]

To digit. I see your point.

But we do react on instinct if you break down our physological thinking process we think in the exact same sense as animals. For example the fox story. Altho our thoughts are more advanced they keep coming back to the need for survival.

And you are right we don't know ourselves. But that is why there is the "word of god" namely the bible. It tells us what we don't know about god. Thats it's purpose. I'm not asking how we would judge him.

I'm showing that if the bible is strictly true god condemns this man to hell becuase he fits the criteria. We don't condemn him. Becuase we shouldn't judge him. But if we believe the bible, god does.

And no the bible won't encompass situations like I have described. All I am pointing out that if god does infact judge us. Is willing to seperate us into horns and halo's. Then he will do that on basis far more ethical than "you did this and you then did that. And then there was that time when you were three and in the garden...."

If he does judge us it will be on a scale far grander than "did we stick to the rules"

 

[Digit]

Aw... I think we reached an understanding. Shall we hug?

Hehe. Just kidding. As you say, there are rules, or as scripture puts it, God's commandments and laws. The reason we should obey these is because sin causes us strife and grief, and separates us from God. I am quite sure that I will have to account for the things I've done in my life, irrespective of my sin, which has been forgiven already.

Which is why I find it impossible for me personally to live without God, because without Him there is no desire to be better than I am. Or rather, to put it more accurately, I try to be better according to man's standards. If man has a standard of 1->10, God is at a 1000000. I want to strive towards that, because I see what it can do and the difference it can make, and I cannot do it sans God.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[Fin1234]

ah, but what of being a better person for the sake of it. I like trying to be better even tho I don't think god judges us I try and be like buhdda and jesus just for the sake of being nicer.

Our society is a mirror if your nice to people, people are generally nice to you. and if you act in a happy and good way your spirit will live on happy and good.

Peace.

 

[Digit]

ah, but what of being a better person for the sake of it. I like trying to be better even tho I don't think god judges us I try and be like buhdda and jesus just for the sake of being nicer.

What reason do you have for not being a Christian then, if you are living a Christian life and aspiring to Christ's standards?

There is more to the package than just a way of life of course, but it seems odd to me to eat apples, but say you are not eating them.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[tapero]

ah, but what of being a better person for the sake of it. I like trying to be better even tho I don't think god judges us I try and be like buhdda and jesus just for the sake of being nicer.

Our society is a mirror if your nice to people, people are generally nice to you. and if you act in a happy and good way your spirit will live on happy and good.

Peace.

Hi, in old testament times God did much judgment. When Jesus came He said I am not here to judge.

So, true we are not now judged. There will be a Judgement day though when God will judge us.

Thats wonderful friend that you try to be nicer.. It's admirable and all of us should do same.

you wrote:

Our society is a mirror if your nice to people, people are generally nice to you. and if you act in a happy and good way your spirit will live on happy and good.

If you mean spirit will live on happy and good as pertains to eternity, I disagree respectfully; as without Christ only those who place their trust and faith in Christ will be with God in heaven.

God's word clearly says, no one is good but God.

All have sinned and fall short of God.

We need a savior..Jesus is..He died for our sins and was resurrected. Once in Christ, we are forgiven all sins, and can never lose our salvation.

If you meant on earth if act happy and be good will live life same way.. Sadly it's not so, as suffering comes to all. Everyone of us has trial and tribulations we'll face in this fallen world, and so it's good to be good and good to be happy...but again in this fallen world it doesn't mean all good will occur.

The psalmists cry out, why do the wicked prosper and the righteous perish...many tmes..good occurs to the wicked, and bad to the righteous..

Actually wicked may prosper, but they are dead in their sins, and life is empty due to no belief in God, however, many dont' see this emptiness, I didn't before Christ, tho I had a hint some 15 years prior that something was missing..

Wasn't till after I came to Christ, that I saw that I was empty before..so many dont' realize such..no awareness, same as me, but that one glimmer that life seemed futile some 15 years earlier.

But yes, we are saved by faith in Christ, not works (being and doing good), but by faith in Christ. Nothing we can ever do will give us salvation unless we believe in Christ..

blessings,
tapero