Just a quick question for law proponents.

Nanopants · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Interesting points. I agree with most of your argument...cept for the last one--
So what you're saying is that G-d had two different "walks" for believers...
One in obedience to His Instructions (Torah) as David did and spoke highly of throughout Psalms, as Moses did, as Zechariah and Elizabeth did (in Luke 1:6), and a different walk --without having to follow and obey the Instructions of G-d ----after His death...

I wouldn't say it is a different walk, so much as being the source of the written law, iow, it's the original walk.

Having known the source of the written law, I can consent to the law given through Moses as having a reflection of its source, but not the fullness thereof.

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. (Heb 10:1)

tzadik · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
Who then needs grace or Jesus?

You're missing my point in all of what I wrote...my point is that if Scripture says PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS --that must mean..that there is more than one explanation or definition of righteousness...UNLESS the Word is instructing us to practice salvation--which in that case makes sense, because keeping of Torah is putting our faith in action. Work your salvation with fear and trembling. Faith without works of faith is dead.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Unbelievable. I did not say that the Torah maintains my salvation or anybody elses. You're blind (either innocently or by choice) if you don't see that David was saved by grace through faith alone, and continued to keep Torah. Now if you want to ask me "WHY did David continue to keep Torah?" we can go that route. But the point remains David, and every other believer throughout Scripture continued to keep G-d's Word and walk in His ways, after salvation. It wasn't to maintain their salvation, as if they didn't keep the Sabbath this Saturday they'd lose it, but rather because they loved G-d and wanted to Keep His Word.

What then is your purpose of promoting obligation to the law then? You admitted that one can't be saved by the law and here you admit the law doesn't maintain one's salvation either. I just can't see any other reason for the law. So what is the law for? The law can't harm me. I have already passed the judgement and have life -

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
I never heard Jesus refer to the "gentile dogs" as being of the devil....but I could be wrong

http://www.christianforums.com/t7613523/
We Gentiles are dogs ??

Interesting isn't it?

tzadik · Dec 6, 2011

Nanopants said:
I wouldn't say it is a different walk, so much as being the source of the written law.

Having known the source of the written law, I can consent to the law given through Moses as having a reflection of its source, but not the fullness thereof.

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. (Heb 10:1)

I don't know if I quite follow...
example.
David as a Torah-observant believer, physically kept the feasts of G-d.

Psalm 42:4 said:
"These things I remember and I pour out my soul within me. For I used to go along with the throng and lead them in procession to the house of God, With the voice of joy and thanksgiving, a multitude keeping festival."

Are you saying that a believer (Jewish or Gentile) in Yeshua, after His death, no longer has to physically keep the feasts of G-d?

Or Yeshua himself saying that "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" and "the Sabbath was made for man" (before His death). Are you saying that Jewish and Gentile believers after His death, no longer have to do good on the Sabbath or keep the Sabbath?

visionary · Dec 6, 2011

Frogster said:
If one blows it under law, and condemns himself for the "slip up".
Sort of like if our puppy makes a mistake on the rug.

Who gets the credit, when one has a "good day" the under law?

Romans 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

It is all God, He who redeems us, and He who forgives us, and He who lifts us up, and He who holds our hands as we walk with Him. It is His Walk, His Way, His truth, and His Life we live. Satan is the accuser not God.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Are you seriously proving that David wasn't saved by keeping the Torah?
I don't know how else to explain this to you....
David was saved WITHOUT having to keep a single commandment. Are we clear on that? ok. DAVID=SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE.

Alrighty NOW---David (the same David who is saved by grace and imputed righteousness from now until ETERNITY) that same David, AFTER salvation continue to KEEP the Torah of G-d. That same David said blessed is the man that delights in the Torah of G-d. Psalm 1:2. Blessed is the man who walks in the Torah of G-d. Psalm 119:1
Do you see...after he was "under grace" David continued keeping the Torah of G-d.

So was David obligated to the law as a Jew? Yes or no? Obiously the law had nothing to do with David's salvation. Is sthe Christian so obligated? No! The law was never given to the Gentiles and as such aren't obligated to the law. You are requirig the Christian to become a Jew/Isrealite to possess salvation. This is not the case, read Acts.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

Nanopants said:
It's interesting to note that within the Masoretic text, the same word for "Torah" is used here in this verse:

"because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." (Gen 26:5)

And yet, the set of laws contained within the collection of books commonly referred to as the "Torah" were not yet given at this point.

Are we to assume that Abraham followed that same set of laws which he had no knowledge of, or is it more likely that the word "Torah" does not necessarily refer to the set of laws given through Moses? What's going on here?

Conflation.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Starting with the fact that you wrongly translated the verse

the Greek word "telos" does NOT mean end, but rather goal...as in Messiah is the goal of the Torah of righteousness to everyone that believes.

This complies with what Yeshua HIMSELF said in John 5:46-47

Yeshua is the GOAL of all of Torah. Even you agree with that statement.
Your statement disagrees not only with All of Scriptures and His own words, but also with Matthew 5:17.
Again..Yeshua is the GOAL of the Torah.

I decided to look up that particular form of the greek word used in that verse and
it is used 3 times in Revelation, out of the 33 verses of the NT/NC used, concerning Jesus being the Beginning and End....pretty kewl

Young) Romans 10:4 For Christ is an end/teloV <5056> of law for righteousness to every one who is believing,

Greek NT - Textus Rec.) Romans 10:4 teloV gar nomou cristoV eiV dikaiosunhn panti tw pisteuonti

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Young) Revelation 1:8 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end/teloV <5056> saith the Lord,
who is, and who was, and who is coming--the Almighty.'

Young) Revelation 21:6 and He said to me, `It hath been done!
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End/teloV <5056>;
I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;

Young) Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End/teloV <5056>
--the First and the Last.

tzadik · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
So was David obligated to the law as a Jew? Yes or no? Obiously the law had nothing to do with David's salvation. Is sthe Christian so obligated? No! The law was never given to the Gentiles and as such aren't obligated to the law. You are requirig the Christian to become a Jew/Isrealite to possess salvation. This is not the case, read Acts.

We're taking this one step at a time Scratch. Step 1 -JEWS. So are you now admitting that a Jewish believer needs to continue to keep the Torah of G-d, like David continued, AFTER he was saved by grace through faith??

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

Nanopants said:
But Jesus said:

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (John 14:26)

So if the Mosaic law is supposed to teach us, why did Jesus make no mention of this, where He said the Spirit is our teacher? Furthermore, if that is its only purpose, but we have a better teacher, why do we need the Mosaic law?

Seeing that the law teaches us what need do we have of the Holy Spirit? I hope you understand what I said. I didn't say we don't need the Holy Spirit. If anything we don't need it is the law as Christians. I cite I Tim 1:8-10. The law is for the wicked. If the Christian is wicked there is no such thing as salvation.

Nanopants · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
I don't know if I quite follow...
example.
David as a Torah-observant believer, physically kept the feasts of G-d.
Are you saying that a believer (Jewish or Gentile) in Yeshua, after His death, no longer has to physically keep the feasts of G-d?

Or Yeshua himself saying that "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" and "the Sabbath was made for man" (before His death). Are you saying that Jewish and Gentile believers after His death, no longer have to do good on the Sabbath or keep the Sabbath?

I don't have to say it when the original Apostles already have.

Remember that before the law of Moses was given, God allowed him to see His glory on mt. Sinai.

Under the law, God's glory was concealed to everyone but the high priest, but when Christ was crucified, the division between God's glory and the people (the curtain) was torn.

Like Moses, Paul perceived it, and he described it in 2 Corinthians ch 3, and in Ephesians ch 1, Paul expressed his desire that all believers would also come into this understanding.

The Apostles were set apart, as they had been given knowledge of something hidden:

...To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables... (Mat 4:11)

He also said to them:

...whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Mat 18:18)

Do you think it's possible that the Apostles, having seen the glory of God like Moses, were not under the law because they were made to be lawgivers?

visionary · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
Seeing that the law teaches us what need do we have of the Holy Spirit? I hope you understand what I said. I didn't say we don't need the Holy Spirit. If anything we don't need it is the law as Christians. I cite I Tim 1:8-10. The law is for the wicked. If the Christian is wicked there is no such thing as salvation.

what happened to grace for the believers then? If the Christian is wicked wouldn't they need more grace, just as the law abounds more, so should grace. 70 x 7.. I believe there is salvation for even a wicked repentant Christian...

Nanopants · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
Seeing that the law teaches us what need do we have of the Holy Spirit? I hope you understand what I said. I didn't say we don't need the Holy Spirit. If anything we don't need it is the law as Christians. I cite I Tim 1:8-10. The law is for the wicked. If the Christian is wicked there is no such thing as salvation.

Yep! The Spirit is everything we need.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 6, 2011

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

I never heard Jesus refer to the "gentile dogs" as being of the devil....but I could be wrong

http://www.christianforums.com/t7613523/
We Gentiles are dogs ??

from scratch said:
Interesting isn't it?

As is the whole Bible

tzadik · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
Seeing that the law teaches us what need do we have of the Holy Spirit? I hope you understand what I said. I didn't say we don't need the Holy Spirit. If anything we don't need it is the law as Christians. I cite I Tim 1:8-10. The law is for the wicked. If the Christian is wicked there is no such thing as salvation.

All your arguments stem from your interpretation of the word "nomos" to mean the Torah of G-d, without actually knowing (contextually) if it actually is talking about the Instructions of G-d, or the Law of G-d, or the 10 commandments, or the Psalms, or the entire "OT" or the law of sin, or the law of death, or the punishments in the Law of G-d. Just a couple of meanings behind the word "nomos" off the top of my head.
Of course if you want to substitute the word "law" here to mean "Torah of G-d", that is between you and G-d.
It doesn't agree with the rest of Scriptures, say for instance David (Psalm 1) talking about the Torah of G-d and saying "blessed is the man who does not walk by the wicked, or stand with the wicked or sit with the wicked." BUT....DELIGHTS in the Torah of G-d. (Righteous man delights in the Torah of G-d and meditates in His Torah day and night)
hmmm I thought the Torah of G-d is only for the wicked...
see how flawed "Torah of G-d is only for the wicked" argument is?

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Thank you! Finally someone else who sees that Torah does not automatically = LAW OF MOSES. The Word Torah itself is better defined from the Hebrew word as "teachings or instructions". The Torah of G-d is the Instructions of G-d. Do you see now how just that one tweak, CORRECT tweak changes so much??

Look at Exodus 16:28 for instance. The word Torah here is correctly translated "instructions"

For many the Word Torah always means LAW of MOSES. This misconception produces even greater damage to the Word of G-d, when the Hebrew word Torah is translated to the greek "nomos" and this word nomos is ALWAYS translated as law in the "NT". So who knows if the word nomos (law) means instructions, law of moses, law of sin, law of death, gentile law, king's law...
yet everywhere many see the word "Law" they automatically assume it means Torah. This leads to grievous mistranslations, misinterpretations and twisting of the Word of G-d.

If you capitalize the word torah you have limited it to the law of Moses and the 10 Cs whether you like it or not. That is the rules of English. If you wish us to understand other wise you need to show the difference by using lower case. But then your whole argument fails. As this has been pointed out to you the purpose is clearly to deceive others. I could provide more detail but risk being wrongfully being reported.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 6, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
I decided to look up that particular form of the greek word used in that verse and
it is used 3 times in Revelation, out of the 33 verses of the NT/NC used, concerning Jesus being the Beginning and End....pretty kewl

Young) Romans 10:4 For Christ is an end/teloV <5056> of law for righteousness to every one who is believing,

Greek NT - Textus Rec.) Romans 10:4 teloV gar nomou cristoV eiV dikaiosunhn panti tw pisteuonti

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Young) Revelation 1:8 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end/teloV <5056> saith the Lord,
who is, and who was, and who is coming--the Almighty.'

Young) Revelation 21:6 and He said to me, `It hath been done!
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End/teloV <5056>;
I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;

Young) Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End/teloV <5056>
--the First and the Last.

Whoa lookie here!
Peter uses that form of the word concerning the end of all things.....

1 Peter 4:7 "Of All-things yet The End/teloV <5056> is nigh. Be sane! then and be sober! into the prayers".

tzadik · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
If you capitalize the word torah you have limited it to the law of Moses and the 10 Cs whether you like it or not. That is the rules of English. If you wish us to understand other wise you need to show the difference by using lower case. But then your whole argument fails. As this has been pointed out to you the purpose is clearly to deceive others. I could provide more detail but risk being wrongfully being reported.

WOW. I capitalize the T in Torah or all of it (TORAH) because it's the HOLY WORD OF G-D!
<shakes head> I don't know what else to tell ya.
The Torah = the Instructions of G-d for His people. (I capitalized the I in Instructions too)

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Look at what Ezekiel 36:26-27 says about the Spirit/Torah relationship...

Yeshua came to show the spirit of the Torah.

Your verse doesn't show that Jesus came to show a change of relationship from the law.

The verse isn't issued spoken by Jesus or about Jesus. It isn't even about changing the place of the covenant.

Just a quick question for law proponents.

Nanopants

Guest

Follower of the Messiah

from scratch

Guest

from scratch

Guest

Follower of the Messiah

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

from scratch

Guest

from scratch

Guest

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Follower of the Messiah

from scratch

Guest

Nanopants

Guest

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Nanopants

Guest

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Follower of the Messiah

from scratch

Guest

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Follower of the Messiah

from scratch

Guest

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency