Just a quick question for law proponents.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not sure what you&#8217;re trying argue with this passage but I hope it isn&#8217;t to &#8220;try to prove&#8221; that Peter was now eating unclean foods? <smile> Cuz if it is, then I&#8217;ll have to show you a couple of things about this passage.
Is your point here to prove that Peter as a Jewish believer no longer kept the kosher (food) Instructions, and could eat whatever he pleased (better yet COMMANDED by G-D to eat unclean food)?

Must you guys always quote xtra long posts? Just quote the relevant parts

 

[from scratch]

Oh brother. Look up the Greek of Col 2:14.
Nothing to do with G-d's Holy Law.
Everything to do with the certification of debt against us.
If you were to study a bit about the culture, you’d know that every offender who was crucified, would have a list of all his offenses nailed on the cross with Him. (In Yeshua’s case He was nailed mainly for “pretending to be the King of the Jews”) So you see it was our list of offenses or the certificate of our debt that He nailed to the cross. He was bruised for our transgressions and our sins. It’s common sense once you understand the context, original content and culture—instead of blindly believing your English translation.

I see you have lots of reading to do that show I go way beyond the English translations. I've got more than a years worth of posting to back me up.

 

[tzadik]

How is that debt created? If you dump the debt, don't you dump/void the law? What are the 10 Cs if they aren't ordinances? I suggest you start using a dictionary more often. If you want to say those ordinances are ceremonial I desperatley need you to explain how worship and the forgiveiness of sin attained by the sacrifices are against anyone. I'll even settle for any sacrifice even one redeeming the first born males even of animals.

You are basing your entire theology on your English interpretation of the word "ordinance" instead of seeing Scripture, and even that verse as a whole. The verse plainly says certificate of debt and again the word "ordinances" is from the Greek word dogma which I've been over way too many times already---NEVER in reference to G-d's ANYTHING--not His ordinances, not His decrees, not His Laws, not His commandments--none of that. So you see Colosians 2:14 is not at ALL saying that G-d's Holy Laws are against us--and therefore needed to be nailed to the cross.
Even the phrase "G-d's Holy Law is against us" is not according to Scriptures. Compare that statement with Deuteronomy 30:11, or 1 John 5:3.

So before you even get to trying to divide G-d's law even further into ceremonial and moral---please be advised that the subject in Colossians 2:14 is not His Laws and Instructions and Ordinances AT ALL.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh brother. Look up the Greek of Col 2:14.

It’s common sense once you understand the context, original content and culture—instead of blindly believing your English translation.

And according to this 1 member, confusing

http://www.christianforums.com/t7396719/
Colossians 2 Confusion

 

[tzadik]

I see you have lots of reading to do that show I go way beyond the English translations. I've got more than a years worth of posting to back me up.

You're certainly not proving it when you say "I saw ordinance in the verse..therefore it must be talking about G-d's ordinances, which automatically mean that it's His Holy Law that is against us."
I am simply telling you that if you were to study the passage and the verse you'd see that it's not even close to talking about G-d's Laws, being against us, and being nailed to the cross.

"G-d the Father's Holy Laws and Instructions are against us, for that reason G-d the Son came to die and nail G-d the Father's Holy Laws and Instructions to the cross." Absolutely false.

 

[from scratch]

lol we're gonna bounce back what is sin passages?
1 John 3:4 tells us that Sin is the transgression of the law.

No you leave out the first half of the verse and isn't that a lie half of the truth isn't the truth and is a full lie. Here is the verse with emphasis on an important word - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Do you also ignore this one - For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5:13?

This one is as straightforward as they get---your verse requires us to try to explain and understand what "what is and isn't of faith", "what is faith?" etc...
I didn't say anyone was hostile towards G-d...I was simply quoting Romans 8. It says in plain English that those who are in the flesh, with fleshly mindsets, are hostile towards G-d and unable to be subject to His Law.
Again pretty straightforward...if your hostile towards your dad, you're not going to listen to what he says, even if you want to.

Remember the law is spiritual. 7:14 Why then is you demand evidence from the flesh? Paul very equates and places the flesh and the law in the same catagory. Again just look at Romans 7. Paul very clearly divides the law from the Spirit. Check out his analagy in Gal 4:22-31. Here -
22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Same concept there. If you love your dad, believe and trust in your dad, you will have NO problem, but rather joyfully obey him.
His Word is amazing!!

Oh yes indeed His Word is amazing!! One should take in the whole Bible.

 

[from scratch]

Not sure what you’re trying argue with this passage but I hope it isn’t to “try to prove” that Peter was now eating unclean foods? <smile> Cuz if it is, then I’ll have to show you a couple of things about this passage.
Is your point here to prove that Peter as a Jewish believer no longer kept the kosher (food) Instructions, and could eat whatever he pleased (better yet COMMANDED by G-D to eat unclean food)?

I see selection and nothing to do with the refutation you asked for. So read it once again. You're just simply amazing dude.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Again just look at Romans 7. .

If I just had a penny for everytime Romans [and Galatians] are mentioned in this thread.......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364825-39/#post52992426
LLOJ's Romans Chapter 7 Translation

# 5550 used 53 times in 53 verses. This is the first time Paul uses this word in Romans and only uses 2 times in this Epistle [the other being 15:25].
It is used all thruout the NT, including 4 times in Revelation [last time in Reve 20:3]. It is different than the other greek word generally used for "time" in the NT, #2540 and I have not yet done a deep study on the differences though I have seen it brought up on some threads on CF.

7:1 Or ye are being ignorant brethren. For to ones knowing law I am speaking, that the law is being lord of the man on as much as time he is living.

Textus Rec.) Romans 7:1 h agnoeite adelfoi ginwskousin gar nomon lalw oti o nomoV kurieuei tou anqrwpou ef oson cronon zh

 

[tzadik]

No you leave out the first half of the verse and isn't that a lie half of the truth isn't the truth and is a full lie. Here is the verse with emphasis on an important word - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Adding the first part doesn’t change the fact that everyone who sins is transgressing the Law of G-d. Heck Paul tells us in Romans 7:7 that he didn’t even know what “coveting” was until the law showed him that it was indeed a sin—and against the Law of G-d. So as far as the Bible is concerned, Sin = transgressing the Law of G-d. If I lie, I’m transgressing the 9th commandment. If I hate my brother, I’m breaking a commandment of G-d (Lev 19:17), if I disobey my parents I’m breaking the 5th commandment, also reiterated in Ephesians. So you see the Torah of G-d is an instruction booklet for the believer. It teaches Him right and wrong, and how to walk with G-d and to abide in His will. Whether you like it or not, every time you sin, you are against His Law.

Do you also ignore this one - For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5:13?

So what you are saying is that because there was no “written Law” as the one G-d gave to Moses, sin was alive and people somehow knew they sinned without a written Law? It’s crazy cuz if you look at even Eve’s sin, you’ll see how she clearly violated almost all of the 10 Words. She coveted, she lied, she violated the 1st commanded and made herself a god, so you see even without it being in a written format (that we know of) His Laws were still active. G-d doesn’t need to be bound by “our understanding”. He can enact and demand obedience to His will, without needing to have it written down. Cain broke the 6th commandment and killed his brother. Noah sacrificed to G-d. Children of Israel kept the Sabbath even before it was written down in the desert (with the Manna). His instructions aren’t limited by “when or how they are written”. His people hear His voice. His people obey His instructions. His people obey ALL of His word. Not just from Matthew on.

Remember the law is spiritual. 7:14 Why then is you demand evidence from the flesh? Paul very equates and places the flesh and the law in the same catagory. Again just look at Romans 7. Paul very clearly divides the law from the Spirit.

I am not demanding evidence of the flesh. Paul is telling you plain as the day that “when I am in the flesh I cannot concur, obey or serve the Law of G-d.” “But when I am led by the Spirit, I can obviously joyfully concur, I can serve and agree with the Law of G-d.”
It’s funny that you are so set on trying to divide the Holy Law of G-d from the Spirit. Think about what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to divide something that came from the mouth of G-d, something that was mediated by Angels, something that is Spiritual, something that is written on the hearts and minds of believers from the very Spirit of G-d. Impossible.
Torah = His Word, G-d = His Word, Torah = G-d. (before you call me blasphemous---one can only say that when you correctly view the Torah as the Holy teachings and Instructions of G-d. When you correctly see the “ten commandments” not as “commandments” but rather correctly translated “ten words”. When you know that man shall not live by bread alone but by everything that proceeds from the Word of G-d, you like Paul joyfully concur with the Law of G-d. For it’s His, it’s wonderful, holy and amazing! All of it….like you said—from Genesis through Revelations. It all agrees, it’s all applicable, and apt for correction, instruction and reproof.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I see selection and nothing to do with the refutation you asked for. So read it once again. You're just simply amazing dude.

You both are

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All of it….like you said—from Genesis through Revelations. It all agrees, it’s all applicable, and apt for correction, instruction and reproof.

I won't argue against that!

 

[tzadik]

I see selection and nothing to do with the refutation you asked for. So read it once again. You're just simply amazing dude.

If you're going to quote an entire passage...and if I read it and find no refutation to the Scriptural interpretation of Acts 15 that I presented...of course I'm going to try and find what you're trying to say...
so again...can you tell me how that passage refutes anything I wrote in my post?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh yes indeed His Word is amazing!! One should take in the whole Bible.

I agree!

 

[Lysimachus]

Right. So everyone who keeps trying to raise the law from the dead, after God already nailed it to the cross, should stop, leaving it behind them to go and follow Christ. Then we wouldn't have reason to strive about the law, and we wouldn't have to rebuke anyone for it.

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Col 2:14,15)

But we are not talking about the written code--the handwriting of ordinances.

The issue of contention is primarily over God's Moral Law in heaven, the Ten Commandments. The striving and contentions that Paul in Titus is talking about is referring to the ceremonial ordinances, such as circumcision, feast keeping, etc.

Everyone already knew the Ten Commandments were basic. That was not even an issue of contention or striving---and no wonder the Jews were never concerned about Paul once breaking the Sabbath. They were always concerned that he was not performing circumcision or some of the other Old Testament sacred rites.

 

[from scratch]

You are basing your entire theology on your English interpretation of the word "ordinance" instead of seeing Scripture, and even that verse as a whole. The verse plainly says certificate of debt and again the word "ordinances" is from the Greek word dogma which I've been over way too many times already---NEVER in reference to G-d's ANYTHING--not His ordinances, not His decrees, not His Laws, not His commandments--none of that. So you see Colosians 2:14 is not at ALL saying that G-d's Holy Laws are against us--and therefore needed to be nailed to the cross.
Even the phrase "G-d's Holy Law is against us" is not according to Scriptures. Compare that statement with Deuteronomy 30:11, or 1 John 5:3.

So before you even get to trying to divide G-d's law even further into ceremonial and moral---please be advised that the subject in Colossians 2:14 is not His Laws and Instructions and Ordinances AT ALL.

Here is the Greek for the word ordinances - dogma and means -
2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment. Please don't miss it.

Here is the definition of ordinance from an English dictionary -
1
a: an authoritative decree or direction

Here is a discussion on ordinance from West's Encyclopedia of American Law


A law, statute, or regulation enacted by a municipal corporation.
An ordinance is a law passed by a municipal government. A municipality, such as a city, town, village, or borough, is a political subdivision of a state within which a municipal corporation has been established to provide local government to a population in a defined area.
Ordinances constitute the subject matter of municipal law. The power of municipal governments to enact ordinances is derived from the state constitution or statutes or through the legislative grant of a municipal charter. The charter in large part dictates how much power elected officials have to regulate actions within the municipality. Municipalities that have been granted "home rule" charters by the legislature have the most authority to act. If, however, a municipality enacts an ordinance that exceeds its charter or is in conflict with state or federal law, the ordinance can be challenged in court and ruled void.
Many ordinances deal with maintaining public safety, health, morals, and general welfare. For example, a municipality may enact housing ordinances that set minimum standards of habitability. Other ordinances deal with fire and safety regulations that residential, commercial, and industrial property owners must follow. Many municipalities have enacted noise ordinances, which prohibit prescribed levels of noise after certain hours of the evening.
Ordinances may also deal with public streets and sidewalks. They typically include regulations regarding parking, snow removal, and littering. Restrictions on pets, including "pooper scooper" and leash laws, are also governed by municipal ordinances.
One of the most significant areas of municipal law is zoning. Zoning ordinances constitute a master plan for land use within the municipality. A municipality is typically divided into residential, commercial, and industrial zoning districts. Zoning attempts to conserve the value of property and to encourage the most appropriate use of land throughout a particular locality.
In the past, many U.S. municipalities enacted a variety of ordinances regulating public morals and behavior. Many, such as ordinances that prohibited spitting on a public sidewalk, have been repealed or are rarely enforced.


Read more: ordinance: West's Encyclopedia of American Law (Full Article) from Answers.com

Any ordinance that is written is codified law. This would also include the 10 Cs engraven on stone. Engraven is written in this case.

Now what is against us? Is it ceremony? How? Please explain how any ceremony can be said to be against anyone or thing. I really need to hear this real bad.

 

[from scratch]

But we are not talking about the written code--the handwriting of ordinances.

The issue of contention is primarily over God's Moral Law in heaven, the Ten Commandments. The striving and contentions that Peter in Titus is talking about is referring to the ceremonial ordinances, such as circumcision, feast keeping, etc.

Everyone already knew the Ten Commandments were basic. That was not even an issue of contention or striving---and no wonder the Jews were never concerned about Paul once breaking the Sabbath. They were always concerned that he was not performing circumcision or some of the other Old Testament sacred rites.

The 10 Cs are written codified law which are also called ordinances.

You wish to delete the 10 Cs from the picute and yet speak of the sabbath. Please read Acts 15. Consider the whole chapter.

 

[Lysimachus]

So would it be fair to say that your rule-of-thumb for deciding which laws to keep is the removal of the temple and the end of sacrifices?

You ask a good question here, and I will be honest and say that I cannot give you a satisfying "100% yes" answer to this, as I'm still doing a lot of research. Thus far, however, there does seem to be a consistent pattern throughout scripture that makes this rule more or less strong.

I believe this rule works for at least 99% of the time seeing that I have not found any evidence that circumcision is hinged to Temple sacrifices. However, circumcision was instituted when animal sacrifices were instituted in Genesis. So there does seem to be a connection. My research is ongoing, and you can be sure I will share as I learn.

Blessings to you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The 10 Cs are written codified law which are also called ordinances.

You wish to delete the 10 Cs from the picute and yet speak of the sabbath. Please read Acts 15. Consider the whole chapter.

Good idea

http://www.christianforums.com/t7608898/
Acts 15:21 (2)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Btw...where is our bro Frogster

 

[tzadik]

Here is the Greek for the word ordinances - dogma and means -
2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment. Please don't miss it.

Here is the definition of ordinance from an English dictionary -
1
a: an authoritative decree or direction

Here is a discussion on ordinance from West's Encyclopedia of American Law


A law, statute, or regulation enacted by a municipal corporation.
An ordinance is a law passed by a municipal government. A municipality, such as a city, town, village, or borough, is a political subdivision of a state within which a municipal corporation has been established to provide local government to a population in a defined area.
Ordinances constitute the subject matter of municipal law. The power of municipal governments to enact ordinances is derived from the state constitution or statutes or through the legislative grant of a municipal charter. The charter in large part dictates how much power elected officials have to regulate actions within the municipality. Municipalities that have been granted "home rule" charters by the legislature have the most authority to act. If, however, a municipality enacts an ordinance that exceeds its charter or is in conflict with state or federal law, the ordinance can be challenged in court and ruled void.
Many ordinances deal with maintaining public safety, health, morals, and general welfare. For example, a municipality may enact housing ordinances that set minimum standards of habitability. Other ordinances deal with fire and safety regulations that residential, commercial, and industrial property owners must follow. Many municipalities have enacted noise ordinances, which prohibit prescribed levels of noise after certain hours of the evening.
Ordinances may also deal with public streets and sidewalks. They typically include regulations regarding parking, snow removal, and littering. Restrictions on pets, including "pooper scooper" and leash laws, are also governed by municipal ordinances.
One of the most significant areas of municipal law is zoning. Zoning ordinances constitute a master plan for land use within the municipality. A municipality is typically divided into residential, commercial, and industrial zoning districts. Zoning attempts to conserve the value of property and to encourage the most appropriate use of land throughout a particular locality.
In the past, many U.S. municipalities enacted a variety of ordinances regulating public morals and behavior. Many, such as ordinances that prohibited spitting on a public sidewalk, have been repealed or are rarely enforced.


Read more: ordinance: West's Encyclopedia of American Law (Full Article) from Answers.com

Any ordinance that is written is codified law. This would also include the 10 Cs engraven on stone. Engraven is written in this case.

Now what is against us? Is it ceremony? How? Please explain how any ceremony can be said to be against anyone or thing. I really need to hear this real bad.

I really don't know or know if I believe you will just drop your biased interpretation and rush to cement your English word claim for one second and understand that NEVER in ALL OF SCRIPTURE does the word dogma or any of it’s forms used in reference to the Holy Commandments, Laws, Ordinances, Statutes, Judgments, Instructions or Testimonies of G-d. You might not care about that, but I do, because like I’ve told you a vagillion times before, if it doesn’t agree with all of Scripture then it’s false and not the truth. If this alone isn’t enough to convince you, then a step back into the culture should—when you see that EVERY single OFFENDER (what you and I are) has a list of all his offenses, a Certificate of Debt, that is handwritten by the “officiant or ruler” –that list contains all of the offenses and sins committed. This is nailed to the cross along with the offender. When Yeshua was crucified, He took with Him all of our offenses, our certificate of debt and nailed it to the cross!
If that’s not clear enough for you…I’ll go one step further.

What you’re saying is that the 10 commandments—G-d’s ten words were nailed to the cross by G-d’s Son. Think about what you’re saying…His 10 Words were nailed to the cross, rendering the 10 commandments useless. So when Paul said “HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise),” in Ephesians 6:2, he was quoting from a useless, nailed to the cross stone tablet…telling the believers in Ephesians that even though the 10 commandments were nailed to the cross you are still to keep the 5th commandment.
What in the world? I don’t even know how you can believe that His Holy commandments were against us, let alone needed to be nailed on the cross by His own son. <shakes head> May G-d bless you.