Jurisdictional Wranglings

ArmyMatt · Oct 17, 2022

seashale76 said:
I met a guy (lay person) on-line who was excommunicated because he communed in a Greek parish- even though he was in a situation where there were no other parishes at the time. He had to actually confess that as a sin, I guess, in order to be readmitted.

wow, that’s harsh

Not David · Oct 17, 2022

Yeah, from what I know, it's mainly the clergy who do it as a form of protesting.

Justin-H.S. · Oct 18, 2022

ArmyMatt said:
then those two would not be in communion, so if they went to the Russian parish they shouldn’t go to the Greek one, unfortunately.

I thought the break in communion was only between clergy, and that laity wasn't affected? (at least that's what my old GOA priest told me)

ArmyMatt · Oct 18, 2022

Justin-H.S. said:
I thought the break in communion was only between clergy, and that laity wasn't affected? (at least that's what my old GOA priest told me)

sometimes the clergy extend it to the laity.

Justin-H.S. · Oct 18, 2022

ArmyMatt said:
sometimes the clergy extend it to the laity.

Well, as the saying goes "listen to your priest."

E.C. · Oct 18, 2022

Justin-H.S. said:
I thought the break in communion was only between clergy, and that laity wasn't affected? (at least that's what my old GOA priest told me)

Officially, yes.

Unofficially, most clergy have extended it to the laity. A ROCOR friend in NYC was telling me that in order for him to attend a Greek parish, even when traveling, the priest has to be "conservative enough" for his ROCOR priest to give the blessing.

ArmyMatt · Oct 18, 2022

Justin-H.S. said:
Well, as the saying goes "listen to your priest."

yes, and the priests should be listening to their bishops.

ArmyMatt · Oct 19, 2022

E.C. said:
Officially, yes.

Unofficially, most clergy have extended it to the laity. A ROCOR friend in NYC was telling me that in order for him to attend a Greek parish, even when traveling, the priest has to be "conservative enough" for his ROCOR priest to give the blessing.

that’s not uncommon when these spats arrive. I heard that was how the OCA and ROCOR were for a while.

Platina · Oct 20, 2022

The Russian Holy Synod very specifically said that the break in communion with Constantinople extends to the laity:

"The reception of schismatics and one anathematized in another Local Church with all the “bishops” and “clerics” ordained by them into communion, the encroachment on foreign canonical provinces, the attempt to renounce their own historical decisions and commitments—all of this leads the Patriarchate of Constantinople beyond the bounds of the canonical field and, to our great sorrow, makes it impossible for us to continue Eucharistic communion with its hierarchs, clergy, and laity. Henceforth, and until the Patriarchate of Constantinople renounces the anti-canonical decisions made by it, it is impossible for all clergy of the Russian Orthodox Church to concelebrate with clerics of the Church of Constantinople, and for laity—to participate in the Sacraments celebrated in its churches."

Statement of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church Regarding the Encroachment of the Patriarchate of Constantinople on the Canonical Territory of the Russian Church

notRusskiyMir · Nov 8, 2022

Moscow - Constantinople issue. Just to clarify. Moscow has split with Constantinople. Not reciprocal. It is one way.
Moscow has been angling for a show down for a LONG while, but it was the granting of autocephaly to Ukraine that prompted Moscow to "split" with Constantinople. Other than Greek clergy not being welcome by Moscow, I don't know the practical effect of this.
As to the "show down", Moscow has long felt that since the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans (1453), Moscow is the "Third Rome". Constantinople was founded as "New Rome" (its official name) by Constantine. So, it is the Second Rome.
This link explains the views of Constantinople. No. 19 explains that Moscow received its autocephaly from Constantinople in 1591/1593, after Constantinople was 140 years under Ottoman rule of the former (East) Roman Empire. 1970 Letter from Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras on Autocephaly - Orthodox History

JM · Aug 1, 2023

Is the Macedonian Orthodox recognized by Constantinople? What about the Belarusian?

Thanks.

ArmyMatt · Aug 1, 2023

JM said:
Is the Macedonian Orthodox recognized by Constantinople? What about the Belarusian?

Thanks.

I think yes to the former, no to the latter.

E.C. · Aug 1, 2023

I believe the Belarusian Orthodox Church is still under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

ArmyMatt · Aug 1, 2023

E.C. said:
I believe the Belarusian Orthodox Church is still under the Patriarchate of Moscow.

I think they are referring to the schismatic one

JM · Sep 5, 2023

Is the Greek Orthodox branch of Orthodoxy considered the most liberal?

gzt · Sep 5, 2023

Political terms like "liberal" don't really map onto the theological and disciplinary variations within the Church.

ArseniusTheSilent · Sep 5, 2023

JM, short answer no. You need to go on a parish by parish basis more than making broad assumptions about jurisdictions.

Liberal/conservative/traditional have to be the most problematic and misused terms to effectively discuss the Orthodox Church.

JM · Sep 5, 2023

Let me try asking another way.

Why are Orthodox always picking on Greek Orthodox?

E.C. · Sep 5, 2023

JM said:
Let me try asking another way.

Why are Orthodox always picking on Greek Orthodox?

More recently, because their archbishop is an idiot.

Much older than that, because they have a reputation of being not the most evangelistic. I'll put it this way, I'm from your usually Heinz 57 American background and have been Orthodox for a little more than half of my life and I still get asked by Greeks why I am at a Greek parish if I'm not Greek. Yes, I'll respond by saying I'm Orthodox, but then they reply "but you're not Greek". This gives them a reputation of putting the ethnicity before the faith.

There's a number of other things that the Greek Archdiocese has done that frankly just makes them an easy target.

gzt · Sep 5, 2023

There are several reasons, but one that should be kept in mind is that GOARCH is the plurality if not the majority of Orthodox Christians in America. It's just so much bigger than everybody else.

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