Judgment

[JM]

What is the purpose of judgment if people are elect before the foundations of the world to salvation and others are left to their sins?

How does this bring glory to God, if people lack the ability to do anything else but sin?

 

[Raz]

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It never ceases to amaze me how many times the same objection that Paul brings up in Romans 9 gets repeated;

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will?"

We can debate all day what the philosopical answer is to the question "What is the purpose of God's judgement?" Does anyone else think it's a little audacious of us as mere men to question God Himself on what His purposes are?

Psa 115:3 Our God is in heaven; He does whatever pleases Him.

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[depthdeception]

What is the purpose of judgment if people are elect before the foundations of the world to salvation and others are left to their sins?

How does this bring glory to God, if people lack the ability to do anything else but sin?

None at all. It is simply the perogative of a capriciously vindictive God.

 

[cygnusx1]

None at all. It is simply the perogative of a capriciously vindictive God.

there , that told the Hypers !

 

[depthdeception]

there , that told the Hypers !

Yeah, well, I thought I'd try your approach once. Just kidding, of course!

 

[JM]

I've been a 5 point Calvinist since the day I was saved, I just don't understand how it makes sense. I know what the Scripture has to say, I believe what Scripture has to say on this topic, I just don't understand how it makes sense.

I know Paul tells us it's God's will/potter's freedom, but how does it make sense?

 

[depthdeception]

I've been a 5 point Calvinist since the day I was saved, I just don't understand how it makes sense. I know what the Scripture has to say, I believe what Scripture has to say on this topic, I just don't understand how it makes sense.

I know Paul tells us it's God's will/potter's freedom, but how does it make sense?

It doesn't make sense--that is exactly the point.

To speak of God's "foreordination" and "foreknowledge" in the context which Calvinism does is to make God look and act alot like a human. God does not "foreknow" or "foreordain" events in the causal, linear way which Calvinistic theology would have us beleive. Rather, God is creatively involved in the history of human salvation, yet not constrained by it. Therefore, we must avoid theologies and philosophies that do not attempt to understand God apart from the temporal, linear framework in which we are mired. Ultimately, the conclusions we reach will be colored by this very framework; however, this should not drive us to uncritically acquiesce to the hegenomy of our finitude.

Besides, when Paul speaks of the "potter's" freedom, he is doing it in the context of God's extension (or rather the Jew's realization of it...) of salvific grace to the Gentiles. Here, Paul notes that salvation is not based upon election (after all, the "Jews" were the elect of God, as the "chosen" people), but is rather based upon God's grace towards all as revealed in Christ. Romans 9, in the context of Paul's greater argument through 10 and 11, has nothing to do with individual "election" or destiny--this is an eisigesis that has been conflated to support the errant doctrines of Reformed theology.

 

[Jipsah]

What is the purpose of judgment if people are elect before the foundations of the world to salvation and others are left to their sins?

Are sins still sins?

How does this bring glory to God, if people lack the ability to do anything else but sin?

The glory to God is that through His grace and mercy He saves us in spite of our manifold sins. Doesn't that seem glorious to you?

 

[Jipsah]

there , that told the Hypers !

Hyper-Arminians or hyper-Calvinists? One is as loony as the other, IMO.

 

[Jipsah]

God does not "foreknow" or "foreordain" events in the causal, linear way which Calvinistic theology would have us beleive.

Ah, so this is the hyper-Arminian "God don't even know..." thang, huh? That doesn't wash very well with those who believe that God is omniscient.

Rather, God is creatively involved in the history of human salvation

Well it's good to know that He plays some part in the process, however small.

 

[depthdeception]

Ah, so this is the hyper-Arminian "God don't even know..." thang, huh? That doesn't wash very well with those who believe that God is omniscient.

No, you are misquoting me. I said God does not know "in the linear manner" in which humans think God should know. Moreover, it is quite possible to hold to a doctrine of God's omniscience that does not necessitate that God wills or ordains everything that occurs.

Well it's good to know that He plays some part in the process, however small.

This is what I wrote:

God is creatively involved in the history of human salvation

There is no mention of "degrees" of involvment here. You are simply misrepresenting my position instead of actually engaging in the critique I have made of the Calvinistic cosmology.