Judging

[FrankFaith]

The pole statement isn't showing the whole statement above. Here's the whole statement:

Don’t judge my Word by your circumstances. Judge your circumstances by my Word. If your circumstances do not line up with My Word, reject your circumstances, not my Word.

Agree or disagree?

 

[RevKidd]

The pole statement isn't showing the whole statement above. Here's the whole statement:

Don’t judge my Word by your circumstances. Judge your circumstances by my Word. If your circumstances do not line up with My Word, reject your circumstances, not my Word.

Agree or disagree?

I would have to see/read an example...

 

[Tamara224]

Sometimes the problem is that our understanding/interpretation of the Word is what is wrong and God will use our circumstances to show us that.

 

[Alpine]

Sometimes the problem is that our understanding/interpretation of the Word is what is wrong and God will use our circumstances to show us that.

agreed!

 

[FrankFaith]

Hmmm.

 

[FrankFaith]

The fact that none of you have voted yet, but instead preface your non-voting comment with, basically, a statement that really says, "it depends", is an answer in itself. I make this comment not to be judgmental or rude, but in the hope that you will see what is happening here. IMHO, unless you jump to click the "I Agree" button, you are in disagreement with the statement; and acting as your own God, reserving the right to choose another way due to your doubts about the true goodness and good character of God.

 

[Alpine]

Maybe some people just don't like polls? I almost never respond to them.

 

[FrankFaith]

OK. Anyone else wanna try?

 

[Tamara224]

The fact that none of you have voted yet, but instead preface your non-voting comment with, basically, a statement that really says, "it depends", is an answer in itself. I make this comment not to be judgmental or rude, but in the hope that you will see what is happening here. IMHO, unless you jump to click the "I Agree" button, you are in disagreement with the statement; and acting as your own God, reserving the right to choose another way due to your doubts about the true goodness and good character of God.

A few years ago I would have jumped to hit the "I agree" button. But then the Holy Spirit taught me a thing or two.

IMHO what you're doing is elevating the Bible over the Word (they are not the same thing) which takes you dangerously close to idolatry.

God is good enough to lead us to Truth using many tools. He is not contained in a book. He's much bigger than that. Scripture is profitable for teaching, for correcting, training in righteousness and doctrine. But the main point of the Bible is to get us started on a real relationship with the One who inspired it.

If what I understand about the Bible seems to me to conflict with whatever circumstances I'm faced with then I will not automatically "reject" the circumstances and cling to what I think the Bible says. I will seek God. I will ask Him to show me if I'm wrong and ask Him to give me wisdom and guidance as to what I should do. That's what a relationship is about. If I want to know the truth... I'll ask the Truth and He'll answer.

 

[FrankFaith]

We are sort of in agreement...if you believe this scripture:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Jesus IS the Word (the Bible).

Do you believe that the Word (scripture) and God are one?

 

[Tamara224]

We are sort of in agreement...if you believe this scripture:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Jesus IS the Word (the Bible).

Do you believe that the Word (scripture) and God are one?

No, I don't, not anymore. Jesus is much more than a collection of writings. I think you are misunderstanding the concept of the logos that John wrote about. He was not talking about Scripture.

The Word (Jesus) and God are one. But Scripture is simply a collection of writings that tell us about God. Sometimes we call Scripture "the word of God" and that has led to this confusion about the proper place of Scripture. Scripture itself only tells us that it is inspired by God - not that it is God. We are told that it is profitable for teaching, etc; we are not told that it is actually Jesus.

When I hold my Bible in my hand, I am not holding Jesus in my hand, I'm holding leather, paper and ink.

If I tried to have a relationship with my Bible I'd be wasting my time - it can't talk, it can't save me, heal me or comfort me (not by itself anyway) - not to mention committing idolatry. I will, instead, have a relationship with a living Person who can do all of those things and much much more.

 

[JimB]

I disagree because you cannot remove experience from anything. If the claims of the Bible are true, as we present them, they will work in human experience. If the Word (or word) we preach does not work in human experience they are not true and, therefore, are not the Word.

“Signs” (experience) is supposed to follow what we preach ... if what we preach is the Truth.

~Jim

“We were made not primarily that we may love God but that God may love us,


that we may become objects in which the divine love may rest ‘well pleased.’”


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[FrankFaith]

The problem with your (Jinbeaux and Tamara224) positions is that you have granted yourselves permission to pick and choose which scripture you believe or choose not to believe. There is no foothold on that slippery slope and you immediately lose sight of God's omnipotence. You effectively remove yourself from the narrow path--or at least you will agree that it then becomes impossible to see or recognize whether you still reside upon it. At least you will agree that by doing this YOU have placed yourself/chosen to rely upon your understanding/comprehension, rather than--and before--the explicit direction of God. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe the Word, or you choose what parts you think are true, based upon the circumstances you find yourselves in. Light or darkness.

*When your circumstances conflict with the Word, choose the Word, not your circumstances as being correct. When God says to use your last bit of oil to make bread for someone, even though your circumstances tell you that you have a family to worry about, choose The Word and not what your mind tells you. When you don't think you can tythe what you believe God is directing you to tythe, obey God and not your circumstances. When you are sick, and you feel the symptoms of your sickness, choose the Word--who came and healed us--and fight the good fight of faith through 1 Pet 5:7 (casting your anxieties/cares) and thinking on good things (Phil 4:8) and fearing not but only believing. Fight for that healing that was so costly to purchase for you. If you fail, you fail--we all fail. *But YOU fail, not the Word--be humble enough to admit this. We can not have everything the Word says we can have only because WE fail now and then. We are all the same--human and prone to failure. We do not have the capacity to understand with our limited minds--we are not gods. We MUST trust what we do not understand when circumstances say otherwise. Trust in Him.

When you choose to believe your circumstances you place yourself on a slippery slope and things like healing and trusting God under difficult circumstances becomes increasingly difficult or impossible.

Believe the Word. The Word will set you free.

 

[Tamara224]

The problem with your (Jinbeaux and Tamara224) positions is that you have granted yourselves permission to pick and choose which scripture you believe or choose not to believe.

No, not at all. You completely misunderstand what I'm saying.

I have not rejected any portion of Scripture as being untrue. I believe it is all inspired by God (God-breathed) and profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

I have simply recognized that I don't always understand Scripture. Sometimes what I thought it meant is not what God meant at all. Oftentimes we allow our experiences to cloud our judgment (whether we know it or not). We allow teachers to imprint upon our minds a certain interpretation; we allow our own fleshly desires, our own limited knowledge, our culture and other influences to get in the way of understanding what the Bible actually teaches us.

An example of this is the idea that Jesus and the Bible are one and the same. That is a misinterpretation of Scripture - it's not what John ever meant. Yet it is what people, like yourself, think it means.

There is no foothold on that slippery slope and you immediately lose sight of God's omnipotence. You effectively remove yourself from the narrow path--or at least you will agree that it then becomes impossible to see or recognize whether you still reside upon it. At least you will agree that by doing this YOU have placed yourself/chosen to rely upon your understanding/comprehension, rather than--and before--the explicit direction of God.

Actually, I've said the exact opposite several times now. When I am unsure about what the Bible means, I ask God for wisdom and understanding. I do not lean on my own limited understanding - I listen to the Holy Spirit.

What I find to be humorous about your allegations that I will "lose sight of God's omnipotence" is that in this forum I've engaged in many debates about this. I've been accused of thinking too highly of God's omnipotence. Some have called me names over my stance that God is all powerful.

And in fact, it is because I know that God is omnipotent that I realize He can never be limited to just the Bible. He is much more than that.

You can't have it both ways. Either you believe the Word, or you choose what parts you think are true, based upon the circumstances you find yourselves in. Light or darkness.

I'm sorry but I have to be blunt: I think this is errant nonsense.

Let me give you an example. Let's say that I read Deuteronomy 29:9: "Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do." From that I say to myself "if I follow the Law, God will prosper me." Therefore I begin to follow all of the Law set forth in the OT - I eat Kosher, I observe the Sabbath, etc. And then one day I lose my job, my stocks plummet, my house is foreclosed and my car repossessed.

I have two options. I can cling to the verse and tell myself that God will prosper me - even though my circumstances clearly aren't proving it to be true. Or... I can reexamine the Scripture and seek God for wisdom. In which case, God would show me that I was trying to appropriate a promise He gave to someone else; trying to follow the old covenant; and not understanding grace. IOW, I was misunderstanding and misinterpreting that portion of Scripture.

You see? It's not that the Scripture is untrue - God really made that promise... it just didn't apply to me - or at least, not in the way I thought it did.

*When your circumstances conflict with the Word, choose the Word, not your circumstances as being correct. When God says to use your last bit of oil to make bread for someone, even though your circumstances tell you that you have a family to worry about, choose The Word and not what your mind tells you.

Well, see, we have a basic conflict in how we are defining "circumstances." In you hypothetical... God telling you to use your last bit of oil would be just as much a "circumstance" as the fact that it is your last bit of oil. It's just as much an experience as anything else.

One doesn't have to tell himself "this isn't really my last bit of oil" in order to obey God in such a circumstance. One simply has to say "ok, God, this is my last bit of oil, but I'm going to trust you even so."

It's not a matter of rejecting anything. It's simply a matter of trusting God even when we don't understand or don't see the end result.

That's what faith is all about.

Also... it appears that you are fine and dandy with God speaking to us through something other than the Bible - which sort of contradicts your earlier point about the Word being Scripture.

When you don't think you can tythe what you believe God is directing you to tythe, obey God and not your circumstances.

Well, this is another argument for another thread, but I think modern day tithing is a false doctrine.

When you are sick, and you feel the symptoms of your sickness, choose the Word--who came and healed us--and fight the good fight of faith through 1 Pet 5:7 (casting your anxieties/cares) and thinking on good things (Phil 4:8) and fearing not but only believing. Fight for that healing that was so costly to purchase for you.

I don't believe that physical healing was provided for in the atonement. I think that is also a false doctrine full of guilt and fear and which causes many people to lose faith and trust in God.

Furthermore, I believe that it is more important to have an actual conversation with God - to seek Him for answers in our everyday struggles and circumstances than it is to just cling to words and supposed promises.

If we are sick and/or suffering then absolutely we need to cast our anxieties and fears on God - take it to Him and lay it at His feet and ask Him to help us. Tell Him all about it - He wants us to come to Him when we are hurting. Like a child who runs to his Daddy with a scraped knee. Daddy doesn't want us to tell ourselves "my knee isn't really scraped, I have faith that my knee isn't really scraped." He wants us to come to Him and say "Daddy, my knee is scraped and it really hurts." Then He can take pleasure in comforting us and making it better.

If you fail, you fail--we all fail. *But YOU fail, not the Word--be humble enough to admit this.

Well, exactly! If reality doesn't match up with what I thought Scripture taught then I should be humble enough to admit that I simply was interpreting it wrongly. And to seek God and say "God, I guess I misunderstood - what should I be learning from this?"

We can not have everything the Word says we can have only because WE fail now and then. We are all the same--human and prone to failure. We do not have the capacity to understand with our limited minds--we are not gods.

Exactly, we do not have the capacity to understand everything. So why would we assume we understood it when faced with circumstances that seem to contradict it? Why would we cling to our understanding of what "the Word says we can have" when we clearly are not having those things?

Why would we not simply say "well... maybe I didn't understand?"

We MUST trust what we do not understand when circumstances say otherwise. Trust in Him.

Exactly! Trust in Him, lean not on your own understanding!!

When you choose to believe your circumstances you place yourself on a slippery slope and things like healing and trusting God under difficult circumstances becomes increasingly difficult or impossible.

Actually, I've found it much easier to trust God now that I've stopped relying on my own infallibility with regard to what Scripture says. It's been a very freeing experience - God set me free from the bondage of always having to be right all the time.

What a load it is to carry, always having to try to deny reality in favor of some ideal we have in our head!! It's so freeing to be able to face each day and say "no matter what comes, Father, I trust that you're in control and I don't have to worry about failing and ruining my life just because I doubted for a couple of minutes."

Believe the Word. The Word will set you free.

Amen!! Jesus will set you free! Free from the bondage of self, works, trying to live up to whatever standard you set for yourself.

Oh how freeing it is to just rest in Jesus!

 

[nephilimiyr]

The problem with your (Jinbeaux and Tamara224) positions is that you have granted yourselves permission to pick and choose which scripture you believe or choose not to believe. There is no foothold on that slippery slope and you immediately lose sight of God's omnipotence. You effectively remove yourself from the narrow path--or at least you will agree that it then becomes impossible to see or recognize whether you still reside upon it. At least you will agree that by doing this YOU have placed yourself/chosen to rely upon your understanding/comprehension, rather than--and before--the explicit direction of God. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe the Word, or you choose what parts you think are true, based upon the circumstances you find yourselves in. Light or darkness.

*When your circumstances conflict with the Word, choose the Word, not your circumstances as being correct. When God says to use your last bit of oil to make bread for someone, even though your circumstances tell you that you have a family to worry about, choose The Word and not what your mind tells you. When you don't think you can tythe what you believe God is directing you to tythe, obey God and not your circumstances. When you are sick, and you feel the symptoms of your sickness, choose the Word--who came and healed us--and fight the good fight of faith through 1 Pet 5:7 (casting your anxieties/cares) and thinking on good things (Phil 4:8) and fearing not but only believing. Fight for that healing that was so costly to purchase for you. If you fail, you fail--we all fail. *But YOU fail, not the Word--be humble enough to admit this. We can not have everything the Word says we can have only because WE fail now and then. We are all the same--human and prone to failure. We do not have the capacity to understand with our limited minds--we are not gods. We MUST trust what we do not understand when circumstances say otherwise. Trust in Him.

When you choose to believe your circumstances you place yourself on a slippery slope and things like healing and trusting God under difficult circumstances becomes increasingly difficult or impossible.

Believe the Word. The Word will set you free.

I voted "I agree" but if you would've had the option "it depends" I would've voted for it instead. I agree with Tamara that we always need to be careful with our interpretation of scripture. I know I don't know it all and can be wrong. I would hate to trust something that isn't true, and I have done that plenty of times before!

God does use other tools to instill the truth in us. However, I believe whatever tool He does use, the truth He instills can always be found written in the Bible somewhere, it's just not always plain to see or easy to find.

Though there are somethings I know I should never doubt. For instance, if during my circumstance I start to doubt how God thinks of me, I know I should not listen to my circumstance but to what God in His word has told me about myself. He says that he dearly loves me and I am highly favored. If my circumstance tells me otherwise I reject it.

So you see, I do think it depends.

 

[FrankFaith]

You have revealed a lot about what you think, Tamara224. It's not easy to do that sometimes--thanks for your insight on this. I hope you are at peace with what you posted. *Peace is the telltale sign/byproduct that tells us that we are, indeed, on the narrow path.

Shalom,

John

 

[FrankFaith]

Is there any such thing as "false hope"??

 

[Tamara224]

You have revealed a lot about what you think, Tamara224. It's not easy to do that sometimes--thanks for your insight on this. I hope you are at peace with what you posted. *Peace is the telltale sign/byproduct that tells us that we are, indeed, on the narrow path.

Shalom,

John

It's more than just peace, Frank. It's freedom and joy, too.

God bless!

 

[Cassidy]

A few years ago I would have jumped to hit the "I agree" button. But then the Holy Spirit taught me a thing or two.

IMHO what you're doing is elevating the Bible over the Word (they are not the same thing) which takes you dangerously close to idolatry.

God is good enough to lead us to Truth using many tools. He is not contained in a book. He's much bigger than that. Scripture is profitable for teaching, for correcting, training in righteousness and doctrine. But the main point of the Bible is to get us started on a real relationship with the One who inspired it.

If what I understand about the Bible seems to me to conflict with whatever circumstances I'm faced with then I will not automatically "reject" the circumstances and cling to what I think the Bible says. I will seek God. I will ask Him to show me if I'm wrong and ask Him to give me wisdom and guidance as to what I should do. That's what a relationship is about. If I want to know the truth... I'll ask the Truth and He'll answer.

 

[FrankFaith]

How could I be elevating scripture above the Word if I believe they are one and the same? The same means...thw same. Not one greater than the other. I think you may be violating your own Statement of Faith.

Another point I'm wondering about is, since "The Word became flesh and lived among us", what do you think "The Word" refers to?