Judge OKs Oklahoma’s ban on sex-change surgeries, drugs for children

[KCfromNC]

Interesting that you think the members of the AMA have all had specialized training in all the things surrounding the transitioning of children.

They're way more qualified to judge than random anonymous strangers on the internet.

It's kind of funny that you think all these other countries are advocacy groups selling the story.

Wow, not only can I get up to date medical research from random anonymous strangers on the internet, they can also tell me what I think.

Only problem is that this isn't what I think. Maybe their take on medical research is similarly wrong.

It's cute that you think only the far right is involved in recognizing this. I don't think these countries care a wit what those of us who agree with them think.

Including the ones previously quoted who have a process in place for allowing gender affirming care for minors. But I guess we're supposed to ignore that part and just pick the ones from sources committed to selling a very specific predetermined outcome.

Perhaps they believed the systematic reviews that have already been done. Apparently the AMA doesn't.

Hmm, so a bunch of GOP politicians pushing their latest culture war outrage nonsense want to sell one version of medicine, while a group of medical professionals have a different view of the medical research on the subject. Golly gee, it's kinda hard to figure out which one is more credible.

 

[rjs330]

They're way more qualified to judge than random anonymous strangers on the internet.

It depends on the person and how well informed they are. A random person on the internet may a lot more about the research and other treatment methods than the physician. Should this random person actually treat the trans kid? Absolutely not.

But their knowledge base on the research and other methods may be hire because of the extensive research they have done in regards to the other methods offered and the reliability of the research.

Wow, not only can I get up to date medical research from random anonymous strangers on the internet, they can also tell me what I think.

Only problem is that this isn't what I think. Maybe their take on medical research is similarly wrong.

Then I guess you should've been more clear on what you were trying to say. When you said that advocacy groups were selling the story in reference my pointing out that it's other countries have done systematic reviews and found the research unscientific and faulty. Who found it faulty? The other countries or activists? Was it only activists that found it faulty? You need to be more clear.

Including the ones previously quoted who have a process in place for allowing gender affirming care for minors. But I guess we're supposed to ignore that part and just pick the ones from sources committed to selling a very specific predetermined outcome.

Yes including the ones who still offer VERY LIMITED (unlike the US) gender care (which isn't affirming by the way) for kids for the purpose of research. (Which also the US is not doing).

Hmm, so a bunch of GOP politicians pushing their latest culture war outrage nonsense want to sell one version of medicine, while a group of medical professionals have a different view of the medical research on the subject. Golly gee, it's kinda hard to figure out which one is more credible.

Nope, the GOP politicians are looking at the current evidence and determining the current treatment processes, affirming care, are not supported by the evidence and wish to stop the current unscientific medical processes.

If you want to call the unscientific medical treatment of children a culture war, I wonder who is really waging it? The ones who want to follow the scientific data and methodology or the ones who don't?

If the AMA stopped the affirmative care like the other countries have, SEVERELY LIMITED treatment to a specific clinic in order to conduct research on various methods I don't think there would be such opposition.

But instead it's full steam ahead on one method and one method that has been proven to be based upon false and unscientific research and methodology. Who's really conducting a culture war?

 

[KCfromNC]

One might be curious if this unquestioning trust in European experts extends to, say, the proper level of government intervention in economic matters or if it is restricted only to subjects in which they happen to agree with one's specific preconceptions about a particular culture war topic.

 

[rjs330]

One might be curious if this unquestioning trust in European experts extends to, say, the proper level of government intervention in economic matters or if it is restricted only to subjects in which they happen to agree with one's specific preconceptions about a particular culture war topic.

You are trying to change the subject. I'm not having it. While transgenderism can be involved in a culture battle, such as; should transgender people be allowed in women's sports or women's spaces, referring to medicalized treatment of children is not a cultural war.

It is a battle involving medical treatments which is based upon scientific and medical research. Which is not cultural. Does the scientific evidence support the affirmative care model. And we find it does not. These other countries have done the systematic reviews of the evidence and discovered that the science does not support it.

So your attempt to change the subject is denied. And your attempt at claiming this is a culture war has been proven to be a red herring.

 

[KCfromNC]

You are trying to change the subject. I'm not having it.

I'm just trying to figure out if the sources used are genuinely believed because Europe produces better experts, or if it is because the ones cherry-picked happen to also agree with a predetermined conclusion.

Seems weird to bring up these people and then not want to talk about how we're supposed to know they know better than the others in the field also referenced in previous posts. Feels like this is another case where "off topic" is being intentionally conflated with "off message for GOP talking points on the subject", but we all know those are two totally different things.

But the attempt to run away from showing and factual basis for why certain experts are better than others is noted, and that itself says a lot.

 

[HARK!]

Feels like this is another case where "off topic" is being intentionally conflated with "off message for GOP talking points on the subject", but we all know those are two totally different things.

Oh feelings. Good old feelings. Yes feelings feel so much more comfortable than cold hard facts. Feel free to start you own thread, on your own topic; where the big bad GOP won't stand in the way of your feelings.

 

[rjs330]

I'm just trying to figure out if the sources used are genuinely believed because Europe produces better experts, or if it is because the ones cherry-picked happen to also agree with a predetermined conclusion.

It's pretty clear really. We have been speaking out for a while now. BEFORE the European countries figured it out. We noted the scientific problems with all of it. Now the Europeans have too.

The sources used were reliable and now the Europeans see it too.

Seems weird to bring up these people and then not want to talk about how we're supposed to know they know better than the others in the field also referenced in previous posts. Feels like this is another case where "off topic" is being intentionally conflated with "off message for GOP talking points on the subject", but we all know those are two totally different things.

Your the one who wanted to bring up other issues. Not me. What the Europeans do in regards to economic matters has nothing to do with this topic. You went off topic. That's on you.

And you talking points comment has no basis in facts.

But the attempt to run away from showing and factual basis for why certain experts are better than others is noted, and that itself says a lot.

All the links provided tell you why certain experts are better than others. It's based on scientific methodology. True experts look into this. Says something about the so called experts who refuse to do so. What are they afraid of? Perhaps it's fear that they have gotten it wrong.

The facts that you haven't read through all the things I've posted or listened to the video makes me wonder who is really running away.

 

[KCfromNC]

Oh feelings. Good old feelings. Yes feelings feel so much more comfortable than cold hard facts. Feel free to start you own thread, on your own topic; where the big bad GOP won't stand in the way of your feelings.

Hey look, an attempt to make the thread about me rather than addressing what I wrote by taking a single word out of context.

I wish I could say I was surprised.

 

[KCfromNC]

It's pretty clear really. We have been speaking out for a while now.

Is we the group cited earlier who was committed to finding this specific result

Your the one who wanted to bring up other issues. Not me. What the Europeans do in regards to economic matters has nothing to do with this topic.

I don't see why. It seems the only arguments presented for them being correct are that they agree with what you hoped to find, and that they're European. I'm trying to explore the extents of what "they're European" actually proves.

I can understand why the posts using this would attempt to avoid that sort of discussion, though.

 

[rjs330]

Is we the group cited earlier who was committed to finding this specific result

Nope.

don't see why. It seems the only arguments presented for them being correct are that they agree with what you hoped to find, and that they're European. I'm trying to explore the extents of what "they're European" actually proves.

I can understand why the posts using this would attempt to avoid that sort of discussion, though.

Still off topic.

Because being "European" has nothing to do with the systematic reviews finding that the research used for the affirmative model was unscientific and unreliable. Did you somehow think it did?

Its just that they were the ones to have done it. Which the American system has refused to do. I still wonder why.

For some reason you feel the need to go down a rabbit hole. Or create some sort of red herring.

 

[KCfromNC]

Its just that they were the ones to have done it. Which the American system has refused to do. I still wonder why.

Again, perhaps because as a group of medical professionals they have a better grasp of the evidence than you do.

For some reason you feel the need to go down a rabbit hole.

I've plainly explained why. I get that it is uncomfortable having the cherry-picking pointed out, but it isn't exactly well hidden.

 

[rjs330]

Again, perhaps because as a group of medical professionals they have a better grasp of the evidence than you do.

Are you still on this? Man I thought we were past this by now after all the conversation. If you are going to continue this then there is no point in continuing the conversation.

I've plainly explained why. I get that it is uncomfortable having the cherry-picking pointed out, but it isn't exactly well hidden.

Your explanation is not good enough. I'm not taking the bait. Please don't continue to try and get off topic. Because we arent taking about economic policy.

 

[Pommer]

Are you still on this? Man I thought we were past this by now after all the conversation. If you are going to continue this then there is no point in continuing the conversation.

If the “experts” knew anything worth knowing it’s that “parts=gender”. Since they obviously disagree they’re “wrong”? Charming.

Your explanation is not good enough. I'm not taking the bait. Please don't continue to try and get off topic. Because we arent taking about economic policy.

I admire you for sticking to your guns, but just because you firmly believe that your opinion is correct, that won’t translate well in the Real World, where the “experts” rule.

 

[rjs330]

If the “experts” knew anything worth knowing it’s that “parts=gender”. Since they obviously disagree they’re “wrong”? Charming.

I don't believe the experts said anything of the sort. It's all about the treatment of children who have the disorder. And the experts did a systematic review of the research around this and discovered how bad it was. They realized they were basing their treatment on bad research so they stopped doing what they were doing. They still recognize the disorder. They are just treating differently.

admire you for sticking to your guns, but just because you firmly believe that your opinion is correct, that won’t translate well in the Real World, where the “experts” rule.

In the real world where the experts rule they found the treatments they were doing were based on bad research. It seems the experts are ruling against the affirmative treatment model. Don't you trust the experts? I mean they do rule after all.

 

[KCfromNC]

Are you still on this?

You're the one asking why a group of medical professionals has a different opinion than you on a subject. Don't shoot the messenger for pointing out the obvious.

Your explanation is not good enough. I'm not taking the bait. Please don't continue to try and get off topic. Because we arent taking about economic policy.

No, we're trying to understand if there's a reason beyond "they're saying things which support my preconceptions" to accept some views over others.

 

[Pommer]

I don't believe the experts said anything of the sort. It's all about the treatment of children who have the disorder. And the experts did a systematic review of the research around this and discovered how bad it was. They realized they were basing their treatment on bad research so they stopped doing what they were doing. They still recognize the disorder. They are just treating differently.

Isn’t it your point-of-view that “parts-gender”, have I gotten that one wrong?

In the real world where the experts rule they found the treatments they were doing were based on bad research. It seems the experts are ruling against the affirmative treatment model. Don't you trust the experts? I mean they do rule after all.

Oh!? The experts are suddenly doing things correctly now, when did that switch happen? Was it in the papers?

 

[rjs330]

You're the one asking why a group of medical professionals has a different opinion than you on a subject. Don't shoot the messenger for pointing out the obvious.

Nope your doing it again. I think our conversation can't continue with such preposterous statements.

No, we're trying to understand if there's a reason beyond "they're saying things which support my preconceptions" to accept some views over others

Nope that's YOUR statement not mine. I never said any such thing. Your putting words in my mouth.

I'm beginning to wonder why you don't trust the experts. If you ask me is seems you have preconceived notions and even the experts can't sway you from them. The evidence of that is pretty clear when you keep challenging them. I mean I posted all the informative necessary in 338 and 340. Instead of challenging them you insist on challenging me. But since the evidence is clear you should try challenging the evidence. I now refer you to it again.

 

[rjs330]

Isn’t it your point-of-view that “parts-gender”, have I gotten that one wrong?

I thought we were taking about the experts.

Oh!? The experts are suddenly doing things correctly now, when did that switch happen? Was it in the papers?

Why yes it was I posted the links to the articles. Did you miss them? I've also posted in other threads the videos of experts talking about the changes. I even posted a Swedish documentary about it. So yes there has been a lot of information about it. Sorry you weren't paying attention.

 

[KCfromNC]

Nope your doing it again. I think our conversation can't continue with such preposterous statements.

Doing what again, specifically?
And that breathless hyperbole might sell to a credulous audience, but here is just looks like an attempt to avoid addressing what I wrote.

Nope that's YOUR statement not mine.

Yes, the post I replied to seemed confused about what I wrote so I'm attempting to clarify.

I'm beginning to wonder why you don't trust the experts.

You don't have to wonder, just read what I wrote.

 

[rjs330]

Doing what again, specifically?
And that breathless hyperbole might sell to a credulous audience, but here is just looks like an attempt to avoid addressing what I wrote.

I think you know. Your a smart guy. You know exactly what you did, cause you keep doing it.

You don't have to wonder, just read what I wrote.

I did. You never once said why you don't.

Just scrolling through your posts

341
343
345
349
351
355
359

You didn't say why.

Your claim that you did say why has been found to be inaccurate unless you said earlier. Which wouldn't make any sense since I never posed the issue earlier. You never once explained why you don't trust the experts. And you have never challenged the evidence. Instead you just want to put words in my mouth. Another tactic.

Just tell us. Why don't you trust the experts who have done the systematic reviews?

I mean if you really have some legitimate reasons we'd like to know and discuss them.