Judge OKs Oklahoma’s ban on sex-change surgeries, drugs for children

Pommer

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Yes every person or organization that does not support the transgender idiology is anti-trans. Therefore everything they say must be discounted no matter what.

Perhaps if one read a little more with an open mind one might find truth in it. Especially since other countries have.
Well if an organization has taken an editorial stance against [SUBJECT HERE] then it is not likely that it would publish data that runs contrary to its “mission”; so, yes, stats can be good but taken with a grain of salt.
 
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rjs330

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Well if an organization has taken an editorial stance against [SUBJCT HERE] then it is not likely that it would publish data that runs contrary to its “mission”; so, yes, stats can be good but taken with a grain of salt.
But that doesn't make them anti something. That's just rhetoric. This is pretty clear on this subject because these folks are NOT anti-trans. They are for better treatments for them and making sure no permanent harm was done when treating them. They are for showing how the research used in medicalization of treatments is clearly unscientific and unreliable and we need to take a closer look and address the issues instead of jumping to permanent medicalization. They are not against trans people. They are against the trans ideology that pushes people and children particularly towards permanent and dangerous medical procedures.
 
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rjs330

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Well if an organization has taken an editorial stance against [SUBJCT HERE] then it is not likely that it would publish data that runs contrary to its “mission”; so, yes, stats can be good but taken with a grain of salt.
Oh and by the way there is a great deal of referencing the studies. This is why we should be taking a closer look at all of it.
 
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Pommer

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They are not against trans people. They are against the trans ideology that pushes people and children particularly towards permanent and dangerous medical procedures.
”Permanent“ I can understand, ”dangerous” only inasmuch as all surgical procedures are dangerous.
(If this is being used as a euphemism for “won’t be able to procreate in future”, I think that that isn’t much of a consideration for transfolk.)
 
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rjs330

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”Permanent“ I can understand, ”dangerous” only inasmuch as all surgical procedures are dangerous.
(If this is being used as a euphemism for “won’t be able to procreate in future”, I think that that isn’t much of a consideration for transfolk.)
It's not just the surgeries that are dangerous. The drugs are too. And they are not reversible. Amputating someone's perfectly healthy sex organs or breasts which includes removing the sexual pleasure modes from. Children who will never experience it.

There are transgender people who have detransitioned and now lament the fact they can't have kids or can't breastfeed their children.

And we are telling kids they are perfectly capable of making these kinds of life altering decisions as a teenager. Because we all know how wise teens are and they make the best decisions for themselves.
 
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Pommer

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It's not just the surgeries that are dangerous. The drugs are too. And they are not reversible. Amputating someone's perfectly healthy sex organs or breasts which includes removing the sexual pleasure modes from. Children who will never experience it.

There are transgender people who have detransitioned and now lament the fact they can't have kids or can't breastfeed their children.

And we are telling kids they are perfectly capable of making these kinds of life altering decisions as a teenager. Because we all know how wise teens are and they make the best decisions for themselves.
Saving people from making “horrible mistakes” with blanket rules, laws and regulations will certainly push those so afflicted back into the closet where “normal” people won’t have to think about them, ‘tis true.

They’ll still exist though.
 
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Belk

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Well since I've payed close attention to this I have read quite a bit. Here's just one regarding the systematic reviews.


Having read the report it appears that the NHS has implemented a review process for hormone blockers prior to allowing minors to start. This is not a blanket shutdown but they do recommend caution as there is no data for long term results. This is a review by medical professionals who give their best advice based on the situation which is my issue with the blanket block by law. It takes the decision out of the hands of the medical community.
 
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rjs330

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Saving people from making “horrible mistakes” with blanket rules, laws and regulations will certainly push those so afflicted back into the closet where “normal” people won’t have to think about them, ‘tis true.

They’ll still exist though.
Still not sure how trying to save kids from making horrible mistakes is a bad thing.
 
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rjs330

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Having read the report it appears that the NHS has implemented a review process for hormone blockers prior to allowing minors to start. This is not a blanket shutdown but they do recommend caution as there is no data for long term results. This is a review by medical professionals who give their best advice based on the situation which is my issue with the blanket block by law. It takes the decision out of the hands of the medical community.
You are still talking about a national government agency though. Something America doesn't have. So we are left with the medical community governing themselves, which they aren't doing or the legislature stepping in. Which is necessary under the circumstances.
 
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Pommer

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Still not sure how trying to save kids from making horrible mistakes is a bad thing.
What would you like a healthcare provider to do?
Gee, Lisa, I know that you’re transgender and you know that you’re transgender but we cannot do anything about it until you turn 18, in four years. So try to tough it out until then!
 
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Belk

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You are still talking about a national government agency though. Something America doesn't have. So we are left with the medical community governing themselves, which they aren't doing or the legislature stepping in. Which is necessary under the circumstances.
America has multiple national government healthcare agencies. It also has non government agencies such as the AMA. I do not see these being overly different nor resulting in a need for a complete ban implemented at the state level.
 
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rjs330

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What would you like a healthcare provider to do?
Gee, Lisa, I know that you’re transgender and you know that you’re transgender but we cannot do anything about it until you turn 18, in four years. So try to tough it out until then!
Don't you remember? This has been brought up before. It might even have been you. Any way it feels like the same ole misrepresentation. I know you have participated in these conversations before.

I'm beginning to wonder if you are even paying attention. Treat the problem. Do no harm. It's called therapy. Find out what is going on with the child. We used to do that sort of thing. Ask the questions why. Is there trauma or autism involved? Where has the child been spending their time? What kind of influences have they been under? Are there other mental health issues? You know stuff that therapists are supposed to be doing.

Here are two therapists talking about this and Wpath standards of care. They even talk about the history behind the transgender movements, Wpath and the clinical histories and how clinicians ended up being removed from treatments.

 
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rjs330

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America has multiple national government healthcare agencies. It also has non government agencies such as the AMA. I do not see these being overly different nor resulting in a need for a complete ban implemented at the state level.
And yet none of these have done a systematic review. The healthcare agencies here do not have the same authority and power the NHS has and you know it. The closest thing we have is medicare.

The AMA hasn't done a thing. That's why the legislators have to step in.

It's interesting that everytime healthcare is brought up those on the left laud how wonderful it is in the European countries and so much better that America. How they get it right. But in this case well our healthcare gets it right and not a word is said about how Europe is tackling this. If WE were doing what Europe is moving to or has already moved it would be a step in the right direction and odds are legislators wouldn't feel the need to step in.
 
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KCfromNC

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The AMA hasn't done a thing. That's why the legislators have to step in.

The fact that a group made up of members with decades of experience in the field doesn't support this sort of big government intervention by people who have no medical training might make one stop and wonder if the intervention isn't political grandstanding.
 
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Belk

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And yet none of these have done a systematic review.
How do you know?

The healthcare agencies here do not have the same authority and power the NHS has and you know it. The closest thing we have is medicare.
It is more decentralized and specialized but the FDA has plenty of power in this area.

The AMA hasn't done a thing. That's why the legislators have to step in.
This presumes something needs to happen which is the idea under discussion.
It's interesting that everytime healthcare is brought up those on the left laud how wonderful it is in the European countries and so much better that America. How they get it right. But in this case well our healthcare gets it right and not a word is said about how Europe is tackling this. If WE were doing what Europe is moving to or has already moved it would be a step in the right direction and odds are legislators wouldn't feel the need to step in.
I am not seeing a lot of difference in how it is being handled in Europe. They work with the person in question along with their parents and determine what they believe to be the best course of action. How is it different then here?
 
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Pommer

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Don't you remember? This has been brought up before. It might even have been you. Any way it feels like the same ole misrepresentation. I know you have participated in these conversations before.

I'm beginning to wonder if you are even paying attention. Treat the problem. Do no harm. It's called therapy. Find out what is going on with the child. We used to do that sort of thing. Ask the questions why. Is there trauma or autism involved? Where has the child been spending their time? What kind of influences have they been under? Are there other mental health issues? You know stuff that therapists are supposed to be doing.

Here are two therapists talking about this and Wpath standards of care. They even talk about the history behind the transgender movements, Wpath and the clinical histories and how clinicians ended up being removed from treatments.

What you’re describing would be considered “triage”, root out those people who “feel” as if they might be transgender but ultimately aren’t…that’s a good and necessary part of the process. However there are going to be people who haven’t been unduly influenced by popular culture; nor abused; nor autistic. They’re just transgender and chemical therapies might be indicated until they reach the age of majority and can decide if surgical intervention is in their futures.

I see that you though are concerned for those people who might, (later on, down the road) have regrets.
Is this issue so important that we need to limit people’s freedoms to (yes) make horrible mistakes?

I come down on people having the freedom to decide for themselves which courses to take, without the government inserting itself into their personal medical decisions.
 
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rjs330

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The fact that a group made up of members with decades of experience in the field doesn't support this sort of big government intervention by people who have no medical training might make one stop and wonder if the intervention isn't political grandstanding.
I guess they should have done something then. The members don't have decades of training in this field. I'm order to do it right they need to go with the research. And systematic reviews have shown the research is unreliable and unscientific. Which of course the experts in other countries have recognized. Why won't the AMA order a systematic review I wonder?
 
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rjs330

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How do you know?
Where is it?
is more decentralized and specialized but the FDA has plenty of power in this area.
Yet the FDA hasn't approved the medical treatments for the kids.
am not seeing a lot of difference in how it is being handled in Europe. They work with the person in question along with their parents and determine what they believe to be the best course of action. How is it different then here?
Not true.

Why Europe and America are going in opposite directions on youth transgender medicine

Finland Takes Another Look at Youth Gender Medicine

The NHS Ends the "Gender-Affirmative Care Model" for Youth in England

Sweden’s Karolinska Ends All Use of Puberty Blockers and Cross-Sex Hormones for Minors Outside of Clinical Studies

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...e-rethinking-gender-affirming-care-for-minors

It's a LOT different there than here. We are still operating on the affirmative care model.

Europe has moved away from it and in many places kids may only get medicalized under RESEARCH conditions. Nothing like the US.

 
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KCfromNC

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I guess they should have done something then.

That's an interesting guess.

The members don't have decades of training in this field.

Members of the AMA don't have any training in medicine? Interesting assertion.

I'm order to do it right they need to go with the research. And systematic reviews have shown the research is unreliable and unscientific.

If we believe advocacy groups dedicated to selling this sort of story.

Which of course the experts in other countries have recognized.

At least as long as they agree with the far-right's predetermined conclusions, of course.

Why won't the AMA order a systematic review I wonder?
Why didn't GOP leadership order a systematic review before their legislation I wonder?
 
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rjs330

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Members of the AMA don't have any training in medicine? Interesting assertion.
Interesting that you think the members of the AMA have all had specialized training in all the things surrounding the transitioning of children. Here's one person who has and is one of the very first to specialize in it. She says the doctors don't do that anymore.

If we believe advocacy groups dedicated to selling this sort of story.
It's kind of funny that you think all these other countries are advocacy groups selling the story.
At least as long as they agree with the far-right's predetermined conclusions, of course.
It's cute that you think only the far right is involved in recognizing this. I don't think these countries care a wit what those of us who agree with them think. I think they care what the systematic reviews have shown.


Why didn't GOP leadership order a systematic review before their legislation I wonder?
Perhaps they believed the systematic reviews that have already been done. Apparently the AMA doesn't. But they haven't done their own. I wonder why? Do you suppose they think these other countries are filled with radical far right folks who are completely ignoring everything and trying to make trans kids lives a living hell?

Maybe thats it.
 
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