Joyce Meyer

[Apologist]

I agree with Anthony.

She has demonstrated herself to be a false teacher and I would not recommend any of her books. There are better authors out there who teach the truth.

 

[Apologist]

3. The Bible says that Death and life are in the power of the tongue (Proverbs 18:11). How much more powerful can words be?

I am amazed at beliefs such as this. That Proverb has absolutely nothing to do with the pretext you have imposed upon it. You have come to that conclusion based solely on a word of faith ideology that you are imposing on the text.
It is sad that the body of Christ has forgotten how to think biblically in these post-modern times.

 

[Anthony]

Living4him

anthony
i believe i have given enough scripture to atleast show why i have a reason to beleive Jesus went to hell.
whether his work was over or not.
i am not very concrete on what i think Jesus did down there, but i do beleive he overthrew the power of hell and set many people free.
i have never come to the conclusion that what Jesus did on the cross wasnt enough, or that that Jesus was tormented by the devil.
but i do beleive he went to hell.

you say "many" teach what acclaim to them.
i guess i have been "WoF" my whole life and have heard alot of what goes around, and have never heard anyone say or have the theology that Jesus death was not enough.

if you ask me what i beleive about this certain issue.
i beleive his death was enough, but i beleive him going into hell and doing what he did there was the outworking of what he accomplished fully on the cross, though it wasnt a battle or the trial or a fight that he had to strive to finish, the battle was won, but i do beleive he still went there.

Endure

I agree, scripture is pretty clear that Jesus went someplace and did something. And like you I also believe it was hell.

Here are some WoF Preachers comments, which promote the idea Jesus atonement for our sin, is function of doing some extra credit work in Hell, which is not supported by scripture. And some of the comments are simple man-made or better made up stuff.

Frederick K.C. Price
Do you think that the punishment for out sins was to die on the cross?

If that was the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go to hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God. . . Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound and they threw a net over Jesus and they dragged Him down to the very pit of Hellitself to serve our sentence.

Kenneth Copeland
When Jesus cried. "It is finished!" He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne ... Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption

Interest to note; Jesus cried "It is finished". Jesus also told the thief ...Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Paul Billheimer
While Christ identified with sin, Satan and the hosts of hell ruled over Him as over any lost sinner. During that seemingly endless age in the nether abyss of death, Satan did with Him as he would, and all hell was "in carnival"

Joyce Meyer
“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell”

 

[endure]

anthony
well atleast do see a little more eye to eye now.

first off, i do consider myself a charismatic, pentecostal, holiness, whatever you want to call it.

second, there are many people like me.

third, i do not agree with all of them on all they beleive.
we all have our little speculations and opinions and ideas of what happened and why, though i do agree we ought not speak these in a time of biblical teaching as complete truth to be built upon.

me being a charismatic does not mean i agree with all charismatics on all issues.
or that they having an error or mistake somewhere is any reason to discredit the general thing they teach.
the sentences you quoted are probly part of a much more broad teaching, that is probly very true.

you said this

Here are some WoF Preachers comments, which promote the idea Jesus atonement for our sin, is function of doing some extra credit work in Hell, which is not supported by scripture. And some of the comments are simple man-made or better made up stuff.

ok, first of all. it is absolutely clear that Jesus did go somewhere that cannot be explained by anyother place than hell, and he did something. do you not think that that involved our redemption? or was it just him taking a vacation in the lower parts of the earth for maybe a weekend?
whatever was done and finished on the cross, it is still undeniable that there was something done in hell and there had to be a purpose.
yes i do beleive it played a part in our redemption, what other purpose could it have served?
was he just there, just to be there? or becuase he just had to be becuase he died with our sins on him? if the second is true, it does still mean that hell was the stage for atleast something that did pertain to our redemption.
it happened, and it had to serve a purpose. and what other purpose is there?

here is what i think of the people you quoted and what they said.

Fredrick KC price.
dont really know much of him, and dont really have much to say.

just, he seems to be saying that it wasnt completely finished on the cross at his death.
and this i agree with, i know he said it was finished, but it is apparent to me that Jesus did have to go to hell, he did do something, and it had to serve the purpose of redemption.
that is enough for me to say that yes, what jesus did in hell did play a part in redemption, and it was not just done on the cross.
something sure was finished, but not everything. or else his activities afterward wouldnt have happened or needed to recorded or meant anything at all.

Kenneth copeland
i think highly of this man, he and his teaching have meant lots to me, my family and my friends.
what you quoted of him, seems to be innocent to me.
it is undeniable that even though Jesus did proclaim something to be finished, his work was not yet done, because we have his actions recorded in scripture, as going to hell, having then the keys to death hell and the grave, and then later going unto the father when Mary saw him and he forbid her touch him untill he went to heavon and returned, and that was a period of 3 or so days.
i agree with copeland that it wasnt finished.
i probly wouldnt if we didnt have proof that Jesus continued to do things that pertained to our redemption, but he do.

paul billheimer
i have never heard of this man, and what he is saying i cant say either way, to me its just his speculation.
but it based on things we do know to be true.
i dont neccesarily agree with him, but i do know why he thinks he has a reason to say this.
he could be wrong. i dont think we can say either way.
but yes i agree i see no reason to call this biblical truth.

joyce meyer
well do you think Jesus went to hell for no reason at all?
it is apparent that he did go there.
and was it of no purpose? certainly not.
it had to do with our redemption, and if it had to do with our redemption, then being in hell was part of the price or requirement for man to be redeemed. or Jesus would not have been there.
there are alot of things you cant get out that, but i do beleive that is one thing you can.

i do not consider this debating, i have made a commitment to never debate again, i am really trying to get to the bottom of this between us.
i have learned from this already thankyou, i hope you have too.

 

[endure]

apologist
the bible says to speak to mountains or mountain like things and tell them to move, and they will if you have faith.

there is no way you can say that only refers to you saying good or bad things and you reaping the consequences of what it does in society and in general by how people react.
the bible also says that a man can live or die by his words, and that your words put food in your belly.
and i beleive this can simply mean that watching how you talk, can keep you alive, or not watching how you talk can kill you. and how you talk to people can inevidably put food in your belly.
i agree that can mean something as simple as that.

but a person telling an object or an issue what to do, and it coming to pass, becuase he has supernatural faith...cannot.

Jesus spoke to plants and told them to live or die. and they died when he cursed them.
this cannot be simplified down to a simple cause and effect by natural reasons.
it can only mean that what you say, can have supernatural power behind it.
and if Jesus did this, and the bible says we can all he did and more, and that HE lives inside US, and told us to go perfoming wonders and miracles in his name, then yes we can do this too.

Lee.

 

[Apologist]

apologist
the bible says to speak to mountains or mountain like things and tell them to move, and they will if you have faith.

And how many people have you seen move a mountain by faith?
The context of that verse along with the rest of scripture is that with the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain but only if it is God's will.
Remember that God is soverign and not you or I.

Jesus spoke to plants and told them to live or die. and they died when he cursed them.
this cannot be simplified down to a simple cause and effect by natural reasons.
it can only mean that what you say, can have supernatural power behind it.
and if Jesus did this, and the bible says we can all he did and more, and that HE lives inside US, and told us to go perfoming wonders and miracles in his name, then yes we can do this too.

Lee.

Do you really believe that? That is a bad comparison as Jesus is God, you are not!
We will NEVER attain any of God's attributes that alone make him God, such as perogative to give or take life as was shown in the example of Christ cursing a fig tree.

 

[Anthony]

you said this

ok, first of all. it is absolutely clear that Jesus did go somewhere that cannot be explained by anyother place than hell, and he did something. do you not think that that involved our redemption? or was it just him taking a vacation in the lower parts of the earth for maybe a weekend?
whatever was done and finished on the cross, it is still undeniable that there was something done in hell and there had to be a purpose.
yes i do beleive it played a part in our redemption, what other purpose could it have served?
was he just there, just to be there? or becuase he just had to be becuase he died with our sins on him? if the second is true, it does still mean that hell was the stage for atleast something that did pertain to our redemption.
it happened, and it had to serve a purpose. and what other purpose is there?

here is what i think of the people you quoted and what they said.

If Jesus had a clear purpose in hell and whether his activties are or were a requirement for our salvation/remdemption then it should be supportedy scripture and scripture alone. That is something we can all discuss without the high profile preachers injected their slant. The problem is these high profile preacher are creating appearance of scripture with their mouths.They make up nice sounding doctrines.

Check out the discussion "Where did Jesus do for three days?"
http://www.christianforums.com/t67039

Try the Charismatic Forum on this website
http://www.christianforums.com/f122

 

[Debbi]

Did any of these Word of Faith preachers talk about generational curses? and what are generational curses?

 

[LilAngelHeart]

And how many people have you seen move a mountain by faith?
The context of that verse along with the rest of scripture is that with the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain but only if it is God's will.
Remember that God is soverign and not you or I.


Do you really believe that? That is a bad comparison as Jesus is God, you are not!
We will NEVER attain any of God's attributes that alone make him God, such as perogative to give or take life as was shown in the example of Christ cursing a fig tree.

One of the purposes of Jesus coming to earth was to do things out of his *humanity* to show us what we can do in God. True, we can only remove the mountains that are God's will to be moved, and also the scripture said that this kind comes from much prayer and fasting. So it's not like just walking out one day and speaking to the mountain, "much prayer and fasting" in that scripture could mean years of speaking or confessing a thing in prayer can remove that mountain, doesn't have to mean a big physical mountain either, different things can be a mountain in someone's life. Depression could be someone's mountain.

That's why the scriptures say we can speak to mountains and they will be moved, we can as in it's possible, but not everyone will be able to do it because it takes much prayer, fasting and probably dicipline and keeping in good standing spiritually without faltering or backsliding etc. As far as Jesus cursing the fig tree, it doesn't really necessarily means that it literally shriveled up and died right then before his eyes, but over a period of time it died. Maybe a week or two, who knows. Just like how we could do miracles in God today, but that requires much dicipline and staying in the right place with God, not faltering. Many people today are just not in the right place spiritually to do miracles, because of how we live, we all have such busy lives, we don't live as simply as they did back in the biblical days where they could stay in the Bible all day long for days and months, they didn't have TV or computers, or telephones, radios, etc to distract and use up their time like we have today. Miracles are *possible, just not easy or simple to abtain.

 

[LilAngelHeart]

Anthony
the 'wrestling" match in hell is simply describing the overthrow of power that did take place.
and i dont think ive ever heard anyone directly seperate Jesus' death on the cross and the "wrestling" match in hell that took place, as if one wasnt as great as the other.
the fact that they make a point to talk about one, doesnt mean they discredit the other.
i think your making it out to be something it never was.

I agree. It was the whole package that did it, not just one part. Like for instance coming to earth as a human, He had to come as a human in order to be killed, you can't kill God, and He had to die in order to go to hell, and fight for us and He had to take our sins upon Himself in order to go to hell or else He would have just gone to heaven when he died. Something pure and sinless cannot go to hell. It was the taking upon Himslef all of our sins, sins of mankind that made him go to hell, He took our place, He was like a sinner without actually commiting the sins. This all had to be done as a package deal, you can't seperate what He did on the cross from what He did in hell, because it was because of His taking our sins upon Himself on the cross that made it so that He went to hell, to be able to fight for us. He paid our price. It was the whole package that did it. The keys were like the receipt or proof of purchase so to speak. LOL!

 

[LilAngelHeart]

apologist
the bible says to speak to mountains or mountain like things and tell them to move, and they will if you have faith.

there is no way you can say that only refers to you saying good or bad things and you reaping the consequences of what it does in society and in general by how people react.
the bible also says that a man can live or die by his words, and that your words put food in your belly.
and i beleive this can simply mean that watching how you talk, can keep you alive, or not watching how you talk can kill you. and how you talk to people can inevidably put food in your belly.
i agree that can mean something as simple as that.

but a person telling an object or an issue what to do, and it coming to pass, becuase he has supernatural faith...cannot.

Jesus spoke to plants and told them to live or die. and they died when he cursed them.
this cannot be simplified down to a simple cause and effect by natural reasons.
it can only mean that what you say, can have supernatural power behind it.
and if Jesus did this, and the bible says we can all he did and more, and that HE lives inside US, and told us to go perfoming wonders and miracles in his name, then yes we can do this too.

Lee.

I agree. Some words can have supernatural power behind it, and some can have just psychological impact also. Like telling a kid over and over that he's a loser, those words have power and pretty soon that's what the kid will believe and that's how he'll act. Sometimes if we speak or think negatively about ourselves, those words can affect us psychologically and we will begin to believe them and those words will affect how we act, those words have power too. Not necessarily supernatural power, but power. If you believe you will fail at something, and you say it enough, you will actually cause yourself to fail from the negative attitude. Words have power. When our words we speak line up with God's Word and what God says, then those words have supernatural power because we are saying what God has said. What you say can mean the difference between life or death, success or failure, hope or dispair. That goes right along with the scripture that says "so as a man thinketh, so is he." If you think you will fail, then that negative attitude will actually drive you towards failure. That's also the reason behind the verse in Phil. that says, Finally my brethren whatso ever things are true, what soever things are honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, if there's any virtue or praise, think on those things. Always try to keep your thinking positive.

 

[pmarquette]

I would suggest not reading anything Hank Hanegraaff or Martin write .... most of their axe grinding on Word of Faith movement sounds like a Watch Tower Tract : Ken Copeland said "....... do dah ...... " tape br549 ;
Fred Price said " .... do .... dah .... do dah.... "

----- what was the deal Jesus said about the landscape timber in our eye and the tooth pick in our brother's eye ... ? [ judge not , lest ye be judged , as you sow ... Gal 6.7 ]

If we differ , we differ " semantically " or by literal reading of passage :
-- he who ascended , did he not first descend ?

-- took captivity captive ?

--- who was separated from God [ definition of hell ]

= my god my god why have you forsaken me = travail

= suffering of soul [ mind , will , emotions ] = torment of the spirit ...

--Jesus was born , lived , and ministered as a man , not the sovereign son of God . Jesus expect us to go and do as he did .....

--no greater man born of woman was John , but the day will come that the least will be greater than he [ pentecost ]

--these works will you also do , and even greater [ more of us , by Holy Spirit ]

 

[Bro_Brown11233]

The False Teachings of Joyce Meyer

Joyce Meyer is into the Word of Faith movement (name it and claim it) which has no scriptural backing. Also she teaches that Christ was born again in hell--which is another distortion of scripture. The following is a collection of links to sites critiquing the teachings of Joyce Meyer:



Doctrinal Ambiguity of a Wandering Star: The Changing Views of Joyce MeyerFrom Personal Freedom Outreach. A critique of Meyer's belief that Jesus went to hell to pay for our sins and other false teachings.



DID JESUS DIE SPIRITUALLY? is an article by Dr. Hobart E. Freeman TH.D and is one of the best I've seen yet analyzing the "Jesus Died Spiritually," "Jesus redeemed Man in Hell," "Jesus became Sin on the Cross," etc., heresies. This article is quite long because the author goes into great detail exposing the false theology of every verse used to support this false teaching. The author does not mention names but Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyer are two of those teaching this heresy.



A Critique of Joyce Meyer from Sharp Sword Ministries exposing Joyce Meyer's false doctrine of Christ going to hell.



The Preacher Who Doesn't Tell it Like it is: The Truth Twisting and Tall Tales of Joyce Meyer. From Personal Freedom Outreach. A critique of Meyer's concept of sinless perfection, that Jesus was born again in hell, and other false teachings.



JOYCE MEYERS FALSE GOSPEL OF THE CROSSfrom Apologetics for Christians - an analysis of Joyce Meyer's book The Most IMPORTANT DECISION You'll Ever Make a book about "salvation"--that Jesus took our sins, and went to hell to pay for them.



See also Jesus Did NOT Die Spiritually on this site. A collection of Quotes from Hank Hanegraaff's book Christianity in Crisis re the theory that Jesus died in Hell

 

[endure]

apologist

you said this

And how many people have you seen move a mountain by faith?
The context of that verse along with the rest of scripture is that with the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain but only if it is God's will.
Remember that God is soverign and not you or I.

how many people have i seen doit?
that is totally irrelevant, you know we base truth on the bible, not what weve seen.
it has to be Gods will.
sure, whats your point?
it doesnt change that words still have power and it still works. and that you can still speak to a mountain and tell it to move and it come to pass, that your words do have power.
and that is the point being discussed.
and actually it doesnt either, the spiritual gift inside of DOES NOT have to be in the will of God to work.
moses disobeyed and struck a rock with his staff and water came out, BUT THAT WAS NOT WHAT GOD TOLD HIM TO DO, BUT IT STILL WORKED.
and God punished him for it.
the power still went forth and did miracles, even though it was not used in the will of God.
solomon said in one place that he used the gift of wisdom God gave him, for sinful things.
that is another proof that you can use spiritual gifts, authority and power, outside of the will of God.

you also said this

Do you really believe that? That is a bad comparison as Jesus is God, you are not!
We will NEVER attain any of God's attributes that alone make him God, such as perogative to give or take life as was shown in the example of Christ cursing a fig tree.

Jesus is God and im not.
so, Jesus did not come in the power of God, but in the likeness and nature of a redeemed man.
hebrews 2.16-17
for verily, he took not on himself the nature of angels: but he took on him the seed of abraham
wherefore in ALL things IT BEHOVED HIM TO BE MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN...

Jesus did not work in the power of his being God.
he worked in the power of MAN, in everything that he did.
he said more than once that he could do absolutely nothing by himself, or know anything by himself, only by the power of the father, and he also told one person that he wasnt even "good" like the father is "good".
he worked in the power that a redeemed man would have, if that man has faith and is full of the power of the holyspirit and the word of God.
he did not come in power of heavonly beings that are above and beyond man, he came like man.
Jesus also said that we could and would do everything he did, and more! if we beleive.
yes i do beleive that.

we will never attain any of the attributes of God?
ephesians 3.19
...that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.
ephesians 4.13
till we come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

if we can have the very fullness of God in us, like Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily, how can you say we will never attain his attributes?

2 cor 3.18
but we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, ARE CHANGED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

as we behold God, the Spirit of God changes us into his image.
yes we do and will have more of his attributes.

the bible says we become Sons of God, through salvation.
that means we become his children, and we are not only adopted into his family, but a changed into his image and likness and inner make up, becuase Christ is INSIDE us.

the bible also says that God spoke and created all that was created, his WORDS and BREATH created the worlds.
thats how God works. we take on his ways and likeness when we are changed into his image through salvation.
do you not think that we now function in the same way, to atleast an extent?
and truely, i beleive even when adam failed in sin, the original Godliness in him remained, but it died and became dormant, though it was still there all along, and its in us all along.
though we have to have it brought back to life and renewed and refreshed, by being redeemed back to our divine place and calling.
and redemption does this.

Anthony
you said this

If Jesus had a clear purpose in hell and whether his activties are or were a requirement for our salvation/remdemption then it should be supportedy scripture and scripture alone.

there is no reason to debate whether or not he had a purpose in what he did in hell. the not so smart thing to do would be to come to the conclusion or begin to think that there was no point in all he did down there.
there had to be a point, and it had to go along with his entire reason for even coming to the earth in the first place, redemption.
and there is no reason to debate that what he did needed to be done, the not so smart thing to do would be to come to the conclusion that he did something for no reason at all.
the fact that scripture records what he did, and the soul reason he was on the earth at all, proves why he was in hell, as being a needed step in the redemption of fallen man.

Jesus said he had to work while it was day, for night would come when no man could work. he often told people to not tell of the miracles he did.
atleast one time he did not go into the city becuase of the danger of him being taken and crucified before his set time. and i believe that is the same reason he told people not to go and tell anyone what he had done.

everything Jesus did had purpose on it, he came for a purpose.
he did not marry, have children, any of that, or even always make his family happy.
becuase we was about his purpose.
everything Jesus did had purpose in it, and we know what that purpose was.
Jesus also said he did absolutely nothing, unless it was the will of the father.

 

[crossland]

just to throw my 2 cents in...I PERSONALLY have never really enjoyed her teaching. That doesnt mean i dont think others havent gotten a lot from her teachings and that others havent been turned off from her teaching. I dont think she is some evil wolf in sheeps clothing, but at times i feel she is not biblically sound in her teachings.

For the record, i really dont like any TV preachers, there are a few i dont mind, but none i really like.

 

[endure]

well
im sorry.
no offense or anger toward you.
but words cannot express the replies my church receives from all over the world talking about how their lives were changed forever and thanking us for showing them the way to Christ.
my church has an international tv ministry and is one of the biggest tv ministries around today, and thousands upon thousands of people watch, and we always receive calls and replies praising God and testifying of how the tv ministry changed their life forever, through the power of Jesus Christ.

i praise God for tv ministry.
it is an awesome door to the lost.
and my pastor is one that i will boldly stand and say IS NOT, in it for the money. we see hundreds of thousands of people accept the Lord Jesus into their lives every year, and that is the only cry of his heart.

 

[Anthony]

well
im sorry.
no offense or anger toward you.
but words cannot express the replies my church receives from all over the world talking about how their lives were changed forever and thanking us for showing them the way to Christ.
my church has an international tv ministry and is one of the biggest tv ministries around today, and thousands upon thousands of people watch, and we always receive calls and replies praising God and testifying of how the tv ministry changed their life forever, through the power of Jesus Christ.

i praise God for tv ministry.
it is an awesome door to the lost.
and my pastor is one that i will boldly stand and say IS NOT, in it for the money. we see hundreds of thousands of people accept the Lord Jesus into their lives every year, and that is the only cry of his heart.

Endure

I agree TV ministry is multiplication at it's fulliest.

Undernearth the debating and the agruing is a simple request for preachers.

Just preach the WORD, yes just the old boring same as yesterday word. The same word that has been preached for generations. Don't juice it up, and making it more or less than what it is. Don't add, multiply, or subtract from the word.

Why can't they just stop adding stuff to make God's word sound better? Just stop adding more doctrine and fancy explantions that are not in the Bible.

God's word doesn't need any artifical sweetners

 

[endure]

well i fully agree.
though i beleive a boring word is a not a living word.

 

[Yitzchak]

i'm confused actually. i like joyce and i've learned a tremendous amount from her but i too don't like the clothes and such. but i do feel that she preaches from the Word.

I go by the principle that we will know something by it's fruit. I have heard many teach that fruit means numbers of people converted. But to me that interpretation simply looks at how fruitful a ministry is and not what type of fruit it is bearing. The real question is not how successful a ministry is but rather what type of fruit it bears. In my life the fruit from listening to Joyce meyer tapes has been sanctification in the form of living more in the Spirit and less in the flesh. In seeing the fruits of the Holy Spirit more evident in my life.

 

[Yitzchak]

Is she the one that wrote, "Beauty For Ashes"? Anyhow she wrote a book years ago about how God helped her after she had been abused as a child. I could relate to alot of things she said in that book. My favorite of her books is, "Tell Them I Love Them." I watched her on t.v. till I heard that she had gotten into some false teachings. Still some of her earlier stuff made sense. She was inspiring to me earlier that a person that was abused severely, God can help them get alot better and have a ministry. Anybody read those 2 books, "Tell Them I Love Them" or "Beauty For Ashes"?

'Beauty for ashes' was a life changing book for me. All of Joyce Meyer's teachings have been used by the Lord in my life to restore and rebuild me from complete brokenness into a closer and more stable walk with the Lord.