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LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

fatboys

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Seeking to answer my own curiosity, since Fatboys apparently doesn't feel like explaining why he asserts things, I found this short explanation of a Mormon service:


It seems that the portion most closely corresponding to a Christian liturgy/mass would be what the video calls 'sacrament meeting', which consists of a few speeches from congregation members, voting on something or other, a few hymns, and the Mormon version of communion. In the words of the narrator, "participation in sacrament meeting is passive, so just sit back, relax, and enjoy", and "the only optional participation from the congregation is to say 'Amen' after prayers and talks."

Again I ask: How is this the path of most/more resistance, in comparison to Christianity? I do not understand. There is very little to do, according to what Mormons themselves say about how their meetings work.
Once you get on something silly you just keep at it until you force it into something. Lol. I do have to admit that you do try and bring a new perspective. There is only one church that requires effort from all its members to bulid the kingdom of God on earth. In order for a person to show his faith in God and the restoration members are asked to participate in leading, teaching, and most important is to serve our fellow man. We do this because we have in Christ. We do this because we love our elder brother who sacrificed everything to bring us back to his God and our God. But as we do these things God promises us blessings. We are not worthy of these blessings but God promises us as we make an effort to follow his only begotten Son by remembering him and obeying his commandments and to stand as a witness for him at all times and in all places that he will bless us. What a kind and loving Father to give so much to us for our small imperfect efforts to please him and do his will.

In your faith a persons only requirement is to have faith. Nothing else is needed to be saved in Jesus. Doesn't matter that few of spend time on forums trying to convince poor blinded dumb Mormons that they are wrong and going to hell. Or that few of you go and spend a life time in third world countries bringing knowledge of Jesus and in general helping and serve our fellow man. You believe that the greatest show of faith is no greater than a person who is selfish and never spends one second in the service of others but says he is a believer. It doesn't matter that the bible says that we will all be judged on our works. Doesn't say we will be judged on our faith, just what our faith motivates us to do for God.
 
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mmksparbud

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Again why would God put any more effort to preserve his word than he did by putting Israel in Egypt knowing that they would become slaves? If God made the effort to preserve his word why didn't he preserve his plan to start with from the begining so there would have been no need for a savior or a resurrection from the dead because there would have been no need. Because gods plan didn't work out the first time why is God sure his plan for redemption is going to be perfect? Christianity cannot answer these questions.


I can't believe the kind of questions that keep you up at night!!! A lot of this makes no sense--"If God had the power to forcibly take Israel out at the time of Moses why did he just make it rain?" I have no idea what you are saying there.
He Told Abraham they would be going into slavery for 400 years--that was what God knew would happen. Why? That's His business!! He is not going to make everything perfect yet---that comes later. God has His time schedule and this is a part of faith which you guys have very little of. You want answers to everything and God isn't going to do that. In order to get what you think are answers, you are willing to listen to lies. That is what Adam and Eve did---God didn't tell them why not eat of the fruit, except that if they did they would die. They weren't told anything else about the tree. Satan comes along and tells them, it's because they will be gods, and God knows (implication being, God is keeping them from knowing the real truth)---question answered. Was it true?? Were they gods now?? They ran and hid from God--that was godlike??
You have your answers---you will be gods---you're not going to get it anymore than they did. God knows what He's doing and JS ccouldn't stand it anymore than Satan could---he wants to be privy to all of Gods business and that is not going to happen.
 
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fatboys

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Because there was a need. And that need was from the beginning
There was a need for gods first plan to come to pass. It didn't and he had to come up with plan B. Does that sound like a perfect God who knows all things from the past present and future?
 
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mmksparbud

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God knew from the beginning what would happen and made provisions. He still allowed
Adam and Eve to follow their own lead---God does not force. It is sooooo very hard for you guys to get this. God is not going to force anyone to do His will, it must come from the heart. He wasn't going to force Lucifer or his followers, but He had to kick them out. He could have destroyed them, He didn't as He doesn't want obedience from fear but from love---the whole picture has to be seen by everyone and at the cross it was seen, That is what Satan brings. This has all been gone over and over with you guys but the concept of God caring what His creations think is so foreign to you, you simply can not grasp it. You csn not grasp the deep love He has for us and the rest of His crested beings. That's because you have been feeding on the writtings of JS instead of the bible.
 
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fatboys

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God knew from the beginning what would happen and made provisions. He still allowed
Adam and Eve to follow their own lead---God does not force. It is sooooo very hard for you guys to get this. God is not going to force anyone to do His will, it must come from the heart. He wasn't going to force Lucifer or his followers, but He had to kick them out. He could have destroyed them, He didn't as He doesn't want obedience from fear but from love---the whole picture has to be seen by everyone and at the cross it was seen, That is what Satan brings. This has all been gone over and over with you guys but the concept of God caring what His creations think is so foreign to you, you simply can not grasp it. You csn not grasp the deep love He has for us and the rest of His crested beings. That's because you have been feeding on the writtings of JS instead of the bible.
Then why was he mad a Adam? If God knew it was going to happen then why punish them. He is the one who place the tree in the garden. He is the one that allowed Satan to tempt them. You big picture is incomplete. It doesn't make sense. If God is perfect why couldn't God create a being that would not be tempted. That this being wouldn't be forced to obey but obey because he was perfect because he was created from nothing by a perfect God. Your God can't do this even though you believe that God did not want Adam to eat the fruit? And where did evil come from. Had your imperfect God not started yo create in the first place there wouldn't be evil.
 
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mmksparbud

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Then why was he mad a Adam? If God knew it was going to happen then why punish them. He is the one who place the tree in the garden. He is the one that allowed Satan to tempt them. You big picture is incomplete. It doesn't make sense. If God is perfect why couldn't God create a being that would not be tempted. That this being wouldn't be forced to obey but obey because he was perfect because he was created from nothing by a perfect God. Your God can't do this even though you believe that God did not want Adam to eat the fruit? And where did evil come from. Had your imperfect God not started yo create in the first place there wouldn't be evil.

Oh, Good grief. Your attempts to constantly trying to make God out to be the heavy in all this just reinforces the obvious fact that you guys have got zip for knowledge of the love of God. Everything you say show you can not grasp love. Is this what reading JS does to you?? If you do not know God, He will not know you.
This was discussed several times already, from way back when I started posting on here. You have learned nothing in all these months, you keep asking the same questions. It has been stated many times. Mad at Adam--Adam did not die right away, Adam was given a way of salvation, as were we all---God killed the first animal to cover them up. How many times do you have to be told that God will not force you to do the right thing??? Obedience out of love, not out of duty, not FORCED. What does reading JS do to your brains? there seems to be a metal plate there in regards to understanding the love of God. Lucifer dwelt on his wanting to be god---just like Mormons--that is what brought evil in---his desire to be equal to or even greater than God, to be in on all His plans of creation, TO KNOW EVERYTHING!! He dwelt on his own beauty, himself, and his ambition to be God is what absorbed him. You become what you think about. He developed it, he fed it.
Get back to the bible and get to know the real God, the real Jesus--learn what love is--learn to develop your faith in Him instead of what you think are answers to questions that JS has made up. God did not force Adam and Eve to sin, He did not create Lucifer in order to make man sin, He did not keep them from procreating until they sinned, Satan did not do us any favors in making us sin---You have been lied to about everything, it's high time you see it and learn LOVE---get to know God and His only Son crucified for our sins.
 
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dzheremi

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There is only one church that requires effort from all its members to bulid the kingdom of God on earth. In order for a person to show his faith in God and the restoration members are asked to participate in leading, teaching, and most important is to serve our fellow man. We do this because we have in Christ.

So, you try to build the kingdom of God on Earth because you have Christ? Hmmm...

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36)

And basically all churches "participate in leading, teaching and [...] (serving) our fellow man". That's nothing that LDS have any kind of corner on. My former diocese in the Southern United States operates a social service program that has helped people here in America, in Egypt, in other parts of Africa, and in Syria and Iraq with over 100 small projects providing support of everything from schools in Egypt, Iraqi and Syrian refugees of ISIS, individuals needing medical care in different countries, education, and so on. They also have various leadership programs and job training programs, and prison ministries.


In your faith a persons only requirement is to have faith. Nothing else is needed to be saved in Jesus. Doesn't matter that few of spend time on forums trying to convince poor blinded dumb Mormons that they are wrong and going to hell.

This is just inappropriate. For one, when have I ever said that 'poor blinded dumb Mormons' (not the kinds of words I would use to describe anyone) are going to hell? How could I possibly know that? I can't, and I wouldn't pretend to. Also, couldn't the same be said to you about the time you spend here slandering other peoples' faith because they're not Mormons?

Or that few of you go and spend a life time in third world countries bringing knowledge of Jesus and in general helping and serve our fellow man.

Is it better that people do those things so as to look better or think themselves better than those who do not? I don't know how many people from whatever churches might go to particular parts of the world or why. It's not my place to judge anyone on that account. I do know that missionary work can be very rewarding and fulfilling (since I did two mission trips to rural Mexico while still a teen growing up in the Presbyterian Church over 20 years ago, long before I was Orthodox), but it's also not feasible for everyone in every situation. One thing I will say for the Mormons is that they have a missionary imperative which they do take very seriously, and that is admirable. I do not believe that they are bringing people knowledge of Jesus, but in terms of making the spreading of their faith a priority, there's probably no single organization that has a better-organized or more widely-served missionary program. I remember years ago when I was in college, I had a professor who mentioned that when he was in rural Guatemala doing fieldwork back in the 1970s or 1980s, pretty much the only outsiders who could speak the local Mayan languages were the Mormon missionaries.

You believe that the greatest show of faith is no greater than a person who is selfish and never spends one second in the service of others but says he is a believer.

Alright, I'm trying to be polite, but stop telling me what I believe. You're not only wrong, you're being rude for no reason. I don't appreciate it. Knock it off. If you can't have a conversation about where we differ and why without insulting others, then you shouldn't be posting here.

It doesn't matter that the bible says that we will all be judged on our works. Doesn't say we will be judged on our faith, just what our faith motivates us to do for God.

And apparently it doesn't matter that Jesus tells us (and you) that His kingdom is not of this world, and that He never spoke of a 'taking away' of His Church to be restored later, or any of the other stuff that Mormons believe. At least what being 'judged by our works' means is something that reasonable and sincere Christians can discuss and debate. There is no such possibility when it comes to the various particular Mormon beliefs (theological, soteriological, etc.), since they are too far outside of Christianity to have a common base from which to discuss these matters. Anything a Christian says to a Mormon regarding Christianity can merely be dismissed as not in keeping with the BOM, the 'restoration' narrative, and so on. So it's a bit silly that you then fall back on what you think the Bible does and doesn't say, when it's so easy to dismiss any replies you receive according to your belief in other revelations.

I note that once again you do not actually engage with the content of the posts you are supposedly replying to. I post a video explaining what a Mormon service consists of, and ask how this represents the path of most resistance in comparison to Christianity, and you reply with appeals to Mormonism's social programs (which, while admirable, are not any more characteristic of Mormonism than those of mainstream Christian churches; the Roman Catholic Church has a much larger network of such programs than the LDS or for that matter the Orthodox do, but that says nothing about the challenges involved in being a Roman Catholic compared to being a member of these other groups, which is what I'd expect "the path of least/most resistance" to be a reference to). The video was not about Mormon social programs, and you did not even prove how these present such 'resistance' for Mormons. You simply say that they exist, and assert that this proves something about Mormonism that can't also be said about Christian churches. And you are clearly wrong in that assertion.

(Also, if that's how you want to pursue things, wouldn't it make more sense to use the proliferation of social programs under the LDS church as evidence of great sacrifice or 'resistance' if the LDS church weren't rich, powerful, controlling many businesses, having a lot of political clout, etc.? But all of these things are true of the LDS, and less so of some other churches. All that really 'proves', however, is that Mormons have more resources and possibilities to spread their message than others do. That's not a positive affirmation of your church's message. That's an economic and social reality that not all churches can enjoy as the LDS do. 'Resistance' is not the way I would describe that.)
 
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mmksparbud

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The Adventist Development and Relief Agency International (ADRA or ADRA International) is a humanitarian agency operated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church for the purpose of providing individual and community development and disaster relief. It was founded in 1956, and it is headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland, United States of America.

In 2004, ADRA reported assisting nearly 24 million people with more than US$159 million in aid. Its staff numbered over 4,000 members.[1] As of the end of 2007, it had operations in 125 countries [2] According to Forbes, in 2005, ADRA ranked among America's 200 largest charities.[3]

Charity Navigator has rated ADRA 4 out of 4 stars with a score of 61.9 out of 70; with 93.2% of funding spent on program expenses, 4.1% on administration expenses, and 2.6% on fundraising.[4]

It's not a contest!!
 
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Ironhold

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Seeking to answer my own curiosity, since Fatboys apparently doesn't feel like explaining why he asserts things, I found this short explanation of a Mormon service:


It seems that the portion most closely corresponding to a Christian liturgy/mass would be what the video calls 'sacrament meeting', which consists of a few speeches from congregation members, voting on something or other, a few hymns, and the Mormon version of communion. In the words of the narrator, "participation in sacrament meeting is passive, so just sit back, relax, and enjoy", and "the only optional participation from the congregation is to say 'Amen' after prayers and talks."

Again I ask: How is this the path of most/more resistance, in comparison to Christianity? I do not understand. There is very little to do, according to what Mormons themselves say about how their meetings work.

To begin with, you yourself admitted that the members are the ones who give the sermons. This means each person had to make time the previous week to research the topic and assemble what they were going to say. From there, it's Sunday school, where the members are called to serve as teachers, meaning that they have to study the lessons out. And during Sunday school, people probably got lists of people they were assigned to go see on visitation that month.

This right here means that the individual member is, at one point or another, going to be called upon to do what the average Protestant minister does. So anyone who is a member of the church is going to have to hit the ground running, because they're going to eventually be given a share of the tasks required to help keep each congregation going.

I mean, I remember a year or so back folks across the internet were in a tizzy because - gasp! - the members of each ward are assigned to clean the building on a rotating basis! A newspaper reporter decided to attend an LDS facility one Saturday when members were taking their turn doing clean-up, and the internet exploded because it couldn't comprehend that we didn't just hire a janitorial service like everyone else. Folks were even using this as ammunition to accuse of being a "cult"; how dare any "Christian" church actually ask its members to clean up after themselves!

This is just a small fraction of the ways in which we don't just "sit back and relax" as the person behind the video asserts. If anything, whereas too many mainline Christians leave their obligations as Christians at the church house door when they go home on Sunday, we're instructed, in no uncertain terms, about the fact that we're Christians 24 / 7 / 365. I mean, one of the things that tends to set us apart is the fact that we often have higher standards of personal conduct than just about everyone else around us.
 
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miknik5

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There was a need for gods first plan to come to pass. It didn't and he had to come up with plan B. Does that sound like a perfect God who knows all things from the past present and future?
Oh HE didn't fail nor was HE taken off guard by Adam/mankind/ our fall

To GOD one day is a thousand years. Therefore GOD knew both Adam/mankind/our fall...

But

More importantly knew the victory in HIS SON

GOD knew FROM THE BEGINNING, that HE would have a set apart people marked as belonging to HIM who would glorify HIS NAME as HOLY
 
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miknik5

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Then why was he mad a Adam? If God knew it was going to happen then why punish them. He is the one who place the tree in the garden. He is the one that allowed Satan to tempt them. You big picture is incomplete. It doesn't make sense. If God is perfect why couldn't God create a being that would not be tempted. That this being wouldn't be forced to obey but obey because he was perfect because he was created from nothing by a perfect God. Your God can't do this even though you believe that God did not want Adam to eat the fruit? And where did evil come from. Had your imperfect God not started yo create in the first place there wouldn't be evil.
GRACE was there from the beginning

You overlook the TRUTH that GOD did not need to create man but out of the abundance of HIS GRACE even from the beginning/even knowing that we would disobey, HE created us knowing full well the victory in HIS SON even from the beginning
 
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miknik5

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Then why was he mad a Adam? If God knew it was going to happen then why punish them. He is the one who place the tree in the garden. He is the one that allowed Satan to tempt them. You big picture is incomplete. It doesn't make sense. If God is perfect why couldn't God create a being that would not be tempted. That this being wouldn't be forced to obey but obey because he was perfect because he was created from nothing by a perfect God. Your God can't do this even though you believe that God did not want Adam to eat the fruit? And where did evil come from. Had your imperfect God not started yo create in the first place there wouldn't be evil.
Do you have any children?

And do you have more than one child?
 
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fatboys

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GRACE was there from the beginning

You overlook the TRUTH that GOD did not need to create man but out of the abundance of HIS GRACE even from the beginning/even knowing that we would disobey, HE created us knowing full well the victory in HIS SON even from the beginning
Sorry but this does not answer anything. This does not explain anything. I have ask this over and over again and this is the answer they give because you can't explain it. Does Gods grace include evil? Does Gods grace includes sin? I ask because without God there would not be either.
 
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miknik5

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Are they perfect? Do they always do what you say? Are they both exactly alike? Would you say they are exactly like you? Could you ensure from the beginning that they would be like you? And did you, as a child do everything right and listen to everything your parents told you to do? When you grew up were you influenced by others? Did you listen to the input from others? Are you a father of many many many many many children?
 
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miknik5

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You arent a father of many many many many many many children
But GOD is

You as an earthly father, do you pick and choose and compare one of your children by and against another one of your children?

Do you think GOD does?
Do you think GOD will?
 
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miknik5

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Sorry but this does not answer anything. This does not explain anything. I have ask this over and over again and this is the answer they give because you can't explain it. Does Gods grace include evil? Does Gods grace includes sin? I ask because without God there would not be either.
Gods unmerited GRACE includes long suffering patience not wanting that any (of His disobedient children) should perish but to come to repentance and the knowledge of THE TRUTH
 
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